Clint Hurt Should Be Fired

knownone

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Our issues on defense are personnel related. We're quick to move on from established talent and often replace them with unproven/inexperienced players. That's a conscious decision worth criticizing, but it's also a strategic risk in what was supposed to be a down year. The front office likely went into the season wanting to see what they had in their young guys, so they let proven starters like Reed, Wagner, Green, etc... walk out the door.

It's hard to put everything on the coaches. For example, some of our issues stopping the run are mental mistakes by our OLBs failing to set the edge or corners (particularly Woolen) seemingly falling asleep in the running game. In theory, the corners should improve with time, and the fact that we're relying so heavily on a 35-year-old OLB should tell you everything you need to know about the coaching staff's faith in their current personnel.
 

Sgt. Largent

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That is my point. If the defense isn't a tire fire once again. They would be sitting pretty. Pete a defensive coach, can't coach defense.

Hard to make a great defense out of the worst front seven in Pete's tenure, two rookie corners and a broken strong safety.

So sure, we can definitely discuss how bad John and Pete have been for 7-8 years prior to this draft with replacing their defensive studs through the the draft, trade market and free agency.

That's a very real criticism. But no, Pete didn't all of a sudden forget how to coach defense. Just like he didn't all of a sudden forget how to coach offense now that he has a smart capable QB that listens to how he wants things run, and a stud RB and TE group to balance out the attack.

Talent Fade, it matters.
 

mistaowen

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I've never loved the promotion of Hurtt and feel he deserves criticism for the DL, specifically as we've really not seen any development there from a lot of higher picks. This is one of the worst front 7's in the NFL from a talent perspective, let's be honest. Nwosu is a nice surprise, Brooks flashes talent, couple of the interior DL are fairly decent like Al Woods, otherwise there's nothing there worth scheming against. The biggest issues with the run game comes down to dudes getting beaten up or flat out missing their assignment. I've never seen a professional group point at each other over wide open areas of field that no one knows who should have been there more than this group.

At the end of the day, these are NFL athletes and the coaches can't make the LB's set edges with consistency if they keep forgetting to do so. Or fill the gap they are supposed to hit so the RB doesn't cut back to zero defenders near him. How many friggen times did Bruce leave containment against the same exact runs last week and let the RB bounce outside freely? A guy that was brought in specifically because he should know these things. Taylor was supposed to be the guy at DE this year and he can't win 1v1's. His run defense is even worse and has become a package guy. Mafe routinely is getting pulled for being out of position.

I hope JS is able to get some genuine talent in the draft this year with the Broncos pickd because there needs to be a legit cleanse of the roster for that side of the ball. Or at least some serious competition for all starting jobs with new guys who want it.
 

Fade

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Every contemporary sports fan forum has threads for fans to vent about that which alludes them. Fire this or that guy. Cut this or that guy. Blame this or that. A shallow place for name calling and demonizing.

Why? Because it's easy. It's a no brainier.

This is one of those threads. I say let them be. They need to vent. This is their thread.
I agree.

But it is not an emotional response from me, but logical. I don't go after coaches only until after I've seen enough. I don't like jumping the gun on anything. I need the data to build.

A history:

2014 (technically 2015) after the Superbowl loss, Darrell Bevell, goes on the S-List. Not because of that one play, but because of his repeated failures in the redzone throughout his career. That play was just a microcosm of that. Seattle immediately became one of the best Red Zone offenses under Schotty, and Schotty didn't have Lynch or a nearly as mobile Wilson. Which was a cheat code back then.

2015: Cable installs Drew Nowak at C, the Seahawks start 2-4. He lost me. They go back to the other C, go 8-2. The previous season that same C, Patrick Lewis, was also 8-2 filling in for the injured Max Unger.
I had had enough of Cable at this point.

2019 Midway into that season and it was obvious, Norton had to go.

2020: Norton is still here? Okay, what the hell is Pete doing? No longer can I blame defensive staff under him, it's gotta be him.

2022 - How can Hurtt be actually worse than Norton? At least Norton could stop the run. Hurtt can't do anything.


So keeping a tally:

Never complained about Gus Bradley, though if he had stayed onboard, and continued to blow 4 qtr leads, I would've.

Quinn - was awesome, loved what he did. He continues to thrive in the league. Wish he were still here. Never criticized him because there was nothing to criticize.

Richard, I generally liked. He blitzed, and played more man than Pete was comfortable with. Shame. He was better than these last 2.

Norton - failure. And criticized him all of the time for his failure. But layed off mostly doing so until he got to year 2. He's still a helluva LBers coach. Just not a DC.

Hurtt - Normally, I give a guy a year, before I start to take a coach to task. But he has been so abysmal that
it is warranted. The Seahawks can't move on fast enough.

So out of Bradly, Quinn, Richard, Norton, Hurtt.

The only 2 I've railed on is Norton & Hurtt. And since moved the blame to Pete, because it's been 5 seasons of this repeated failure on defense.

On offense out of Bates, Bevell, Cable, Schotty, Solari, Waldron, and Dickerson.

I've only railed, Bevell & Cable. And Pete at times for not keeping his hand out of the cookie jar. Butt-out and go fix your defense, Pete. Has pretty much been my stance on that.

Have I been misguided in wanting Bevell, Cable, Norton, and now Hurtt, gone? The only 4 assistants I've called for firing in all of these years. I don't think so.

Am I misguided in wanting Pete gone? Here's the thing. And how I logically arrive at that conclusion, that took years to arrive at mind you.

I don't actually want Pete gone in a perfect world. He'd just hire a real DC like a Fangio to run his defense, and Pete can be the figure head. But the rub is I don't believe Pete can do such a thing. It's his defense at the end of the day. Thus, unfortunately for him he has to go, too.

I want to see the Seahawks make playoff runs, maybe even a few more championships down the line. I don't care who the HC is. The Seahawks can't do this with Pete's defense anymore. No matter how good the QB plays, Pete's defense is always going to drag them down. The Seahawks would go get Quinn if they were smart.
 

Fade

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Hard to make a great defense out of the worst front seven in Pete's tenure, two rookie corners and a broken strong safety.

So sure, we can definitely discuss how bad John and Pete have been for 7-8 years prior to this draft with replacing their defensive studs through the the draft, trade market and free agency.

That's a very real criticism. But no, Pete didn't all of a sudden forget how to coach defense. Just like he didn't all of a sudden forget how to coach offense now that he has a smart capable QB that listens to how he wants things run, and a stud RB and TE group to balance out the attack.

Talent Fade, it matters.
He didn't forget how to coach the fundamentals of defense. His scheme was figured out and he doesn't have an answer.

Wagner looks way better on the Rams than he did on the Seahawks the last 2 years. Coaching matters more than you think.

You can pile on the draft picks and all the Free Agents all you want. The same problems will persist. Good to know you've come around on the draft failures. You were calling it propaganda before when I made that thread about it.
 

Sgt. Largent

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He didn't forget how to coach the fundamentals of defense. His scheme was figured out and he doesn't have an answer.

Wagner looks way better on the Rams than he did on the Seahawks the last 2 years. Coaching matters more than you think.

You can pile on the draft picks and all the Free Agents all you want. The same problems will persist. Good to know you've come around on the draft failures. You were calling it propaganda before when I made that thread about it.

Scheme is fluid. Game to game, and even play to play. A defense could and usually employs many schemes in one game.

Two high, one high, man, zone, mix of both, anything to disguise.

But last year you were telling us Pete Ball was too predictable. Now that the Hawks have a top 5 offense you've moved onto the defense.

We look forward next year to your manifestos on how Pete forgot how to coach special teams and award banquets.
 

Fade

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This thread got me reminiscing about the hilarious responses I've gotten over the years and the last couple of days, whenever I point out the problems with the coaching staff.

"You don't know anything, Fade! Bev is not only a good coach, but he will one day be the HC of the Seahawks!"

"Cable is one of the best O-Line Coaches in the league! He knows what he's doing. Infact he will be the HC of the Seahawks eventually. So stop complaining Fade!"

"Ken Norton is great. It's Russell Wilson's fault why the defense is struggling!" -Ken Norton proceeds to get fired with no push-back from these same people that swore Norton was a good DC.

"Clint Hurtt wipes his ass with the 'yes man' comments!"

"Pete's a great coach. Have you not seen Geno Smith carry Pete's inept defense on his back to a 7-5 record? That's good coaching."

"Pete made Geno!"

-You're selling Geno short. Geno is a BAMF. If Pete can't make a run with a QB playing this well, he never will again. These kind of seasons don't come around often. That is why they are called historic.

"Pete made Wilson!" -You're selling Wilson short, he was not a system player. He had to be the system to overcome Bevell and Cable. He played in structure in college. He obviously developed a lot of bad habits during this time, and took a lot of undue punishment that has caught up to him now.
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"Pete built a great defense 10 years ago." -Implying I should ignore the last 6+ years of failure. Because clearly that large of a sample size is just a fluke.
 

Fade

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Scheme is fluid. Game to game, and even play to play. A defense could and usually employs many schemes in one game.

Two high, one high, man, zone, mix of both, anything to disguise.

But last year you were telling us Pete Ball was too predictable. Now that the Hawks have a top 5 offense you've moved onto the defense.

We look forward next year to your manifestos on how Pete forgot how to coach special teams and award banquets.
Not Pete's scheme, it's about as rigid as they come when comparing it to other NFL teams. That is one of the main issues and why backup QBs routinely look like Joe Montana and Steve Young playing against it. Now Pete's got scrub runningbacks lookin' like Emmitt Smith, and good running backs lookin' like Jim Brown.

I've spent far more time winging about the defense than the offense these last 5 years or so. Pete Ball IS crap and indefensible. They deployed it the first AZ game, and nearly got Geno killed. And they deployed it in the 1st half of the TB game. Pete Ball is crap, an no one likes it, including the players.

Waldron Ball is far better as one of the main differences is attack the weakness of the defense, whether it be run or pass. Where Pete Ball is lets run repeatedly up the gut into loaded boxes, regardless. And then have everyone run deep on 3rd and long, getting the QB killed. Punt.

Unfortunately, I will still be bitching about the defense, as I don't see it getting fixed anytime soon. I would love to complain about Special teams for a change. The offense gives me very little to dissect these days. The interior O-Line needs upgrading, longterm they need another WR.

The defensive ineptitude for this long of a stretch with a defensive HC, is absolutely fascinating to me and garners most of my attention these days.
 

Maelstrom787

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Almost sad to watch this sort of mental gymnastics display from a man who may have been the most incorrect poster of all time when it came to judging how this season, and Geno Smith, would do.

You wanna take credit away from Pete for sticking with Geno? Bud, you thought Geno was worthless. Let's not dig up your posts on this one again - they're embarrassing enough in theory.

You're talking to yourself, Fade. You're rambling and you're not directly replying to anything.

Your posts are composed 50% of paraphrased quotes. You know why? Because paraphrased quotes are the primordial ooze from which strawman arguments are built.
 

Maelstrom787

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This thread got me reminiscing about the hilarious responses I've gotten over the years and the last couple of days, whenever I point out the problems with the coaching staff.

"You don't know anything, Fade! Bev is not only a good coach, but he will one day be the HC of the Seahawks!"

"Cable is one of the best O-Line Coaches in the league! He knows what he's doing. Infact he will be the HC of the Seahawks eventually. So stop complaining Fade!"

"Ken Norton is great. It's Russell Wilson's fault why the defense is struggling!" -Ken Norton proceeds to get fired with no push-back from these same people that swore Norton was a good DC.

"Clint Hurtt wipes his ass with the 'yes man' comments!"

"Pete's a great coach. Have you not seen Geno Smith carry Pete's inept defense on his back to a 7-5 record? That's good coaching."

"Pete made Geno!"

-You're selling Geno short. Geno is a BAMF. If Pete can't make a run with a QB playing this well, he never will again. These kind of seasons don't come around often. That is why they are called historic.

"Pete made Wilson!" -You're selling Wilson short, he was not a system player. He had to be the system to overcome Bevell and Cable. He played in structure in college. He obviously developed a lot of bad habits during this time, and took a lot of undue punishment that has caught up to him now.
View attachment 56044

"Pete built a great defense 10 years ago." -Implying I should ignore the last 6+ years of failure. Because clearly that large of a sample size is just a fluke.


See this, everyone?

He's winning an argument against himself. That's his schtick.
 

Spin Doctor

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Scheme is fluid. Game to game, and even play to play. A defense could and usually employs many schemes in one game.

Two high, one high, man, zone, mix of both, anything to disguise.

But last year you were telling us Pete Ball was too predictable. Now that the Hawks have a top 5 offense you've moved onto the defense.

We look forward next year to your manifestos on how Pete forgot how to coach special teams and award banquets.
Well, to be fair Pete's defenses still do concern me. He has really struggled to put together a good unit for quite sometime now. The most problematic area here has been the D-Line. We've had a ton of really big whiffs. We also promoted the guy responsible for coaching up the most problematic Seahawks unit.

Pete is a great manager of people -- but sometimes his coaching hires really are dumbfounding. I'd say it's his biggest downfall as a head coach.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Well, to be fair Pete's defenses still do concern me. He has really struggled to put together a good unit for quite sometime now. The most problematic area here has been the D-Line. We've had a ton of really big whiffs. We also promoted the guy responsible for coaching up the most problematic Seahawks unit.

Pete is a great manager of people -- but sometimes his coaching hires really are dumbfounding. I'd say it's his biggest downfall as a head coach.

Right, because he and his GM have failed to draft and aquire the young difference makers to assemble another good defense.

Has absolutely nothing to do with scheme. The Hawks run the same scheme 80% of the league runs. 3-4, 4-3, cover 2, cover 3. It's not rocket science.

Fade and others have misplaced confirmation bias. Bad defense must = bad coaching.

Nope, bad defense usually = bad players.
 

seahawks08

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Clint was promoted because he was good with players. Robert Salah was a quality control coach with the Hawks who then became a DC with 9ers and now a HC. Coaches have to work with players and set them up for success. Rising stars from earlier years are looking mediocre now. We also brought in a co defensive coach Sean Desai. On paper that naturally would be an upgrade having two brains scheming. I hope we figure this out quickly. Such a cinderalla season with a no name QB doing wonders. I would love to see him beat every stat that he can dream off and win forever as a team!
 

Spin Doctor

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Right, because he and his GM have failed to draft and aquire the young difference makers to assemble another good defense.

Has absolutely nothing to do with scheme. The Hawks run the same scheme 80% of the league runs. 3-4, 4-3, cover 2, cover 3. It's not rocket science.

Fade and others have misplaced confirmation bias. Bad defense must = bad coaching.

Nope, bad defense usually = bad players.
Don't you think Clint Hurtt perhaps something to do with the bad defensive line? Carroll even said he thinks very highly of Clint Hurtt's opinion on defense. We know that Cable was quite influential on the Seahawks drafts.

Bad defense can be bad coaching, absolutely. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying every team in the league uses the same route trees, therefore bad offense must mean bad players, it's both.

Coverage, what you show pre-snap, post snap, personnel decisions, front, are you running stunts, etc. It's dynamic, and while every team uses all of those coverages, the way they're presented and what goes on in the front and what you're showing vs. what you're doing are all very different. There can be a great deal of creativity expressed on defense.

Coaching here matters, just look at Jamal Adams in NY vs. what he's done here as a Seahawk even while healthy. Or look at how we used Michael Bennett vs. how Tampa used him in Seattle or Red Bryant vs. how Mora used him, etc, etc so on and so forth.
 
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scutterhawk

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I agree.

But it is not an emotional response from me, but logical.
Persistently Ragging on someone like you do is called SNIVELING, there's NOTHING POSITIVE to be taken from it....Same Sour S#!t different day.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Don't you think Clint Hurtt perhaps something to do with the bad defensive line? Carroll even said he thinks very highly of Clint Hurtt's opinion on defense. We know that Cable was quite influential on the Seahawks drafts.

Bad defense can be bad coaching, absolutely. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying every team in the league uses the same route trees, therefore bad offense must mean bad players, it's both.

Coverage, what you show pre-snap, post snap, personnel decisions, front, are you running stunts, etc. It's dynamic, and while every team uses all of those coverages, the way they're presented and what goes on in the front and what you're showing vs. what you're doing are all very different. There can be a great deal of creativity expressed on defense.

Coaching here matters, just look at Jamal Adams in NY vs. what he's done here as a Seahawk even while healthy. Or look at how we used Michael Bennett vs. how Tampa used him in Seattle or Red Bryant vs. how Mora used him, etc, etc so on and so forth.

If you don't think by now that Pete Carroll is one of the greatest recognizers and developer of college and NFL talent, on both sides of the ball after all the players he's helped turn into great pros, no matter where they were drafted?

Then lets just stop the discussion now, because you and others obviously haven't been paying attention.

So no, bring in the ghost of Vince Lombardi, Clint Hurtt isn't the problem. This defense only has three players playing at an above average level. Nwousu, Brooks and Woolen.

That's it. Everyone else is average to below average.
 

Spin Doctor

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If you don't think by now that Pete Carroll is one of the greatest recognizers and developer of college and NFL talent, on both sides of the ball after all the players he's helped turn into great pros, no matter where they were drafted?

Then lets just stop the discussion now, because you and others obviously haven't been paying attention.

So no, bring in the ghost of Vince Lombardi, Clint Hurtt isn't the problem. This defense only has three players playing at an above average level. Nwousu, Brooks and Woolen.

That's it. Everyone else is average to below average.
Carroll and Schneider have struggled for quite awhile to field a competent defense. The defensive line in particular has been problematic for a very long time and we've thrown quite a few resources at it. Carroll has been a great HC for us, but even he has had his fair share of blind spots and misses. He isn't above reproach and I do think people should be questioning why a unit that has had so many resources thrown at it has struggled for years at this point. He's been very good on the offensive side of the ball, but defense not so much since the LOB has been dismantled.

You say that Carroll is one of the best developers of talent yet in the same breath you say that Carroll and Schneider have failed to bring in young talent on defense and you talk about how we have a below average talent on defense. That is a contradictory statement.

Carroll also has a history of surrounding himself and putting trust in people that he should not be putting trust in. Think Cable or KNJ on defense. We also awarded the guy that was in charge of the worst unit on defense, DC. Think about that for a moment, what merrit has Clint Hurtt shown us? He's bounced around the collegiate and NFL ranks quite a bit. Carroll said that he puts a great deal of faith in Clint Hurtt and what he says before he even got hired. The guy was in charge of the worst performing unit on the Seahawks for years and he got a promotion.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to remain extremely skeptical of this hire. The unit he was in charge of and has coached his whole career is also the one that is consistently performing the worst.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Don't you think Clint Hurtt perhaps something to do with the bad defensive line? Carroll even said he thinks very highly of Clint Hurtt's opinion on defense. We know that Cable was quite influential on the Seahawks drafts.

Bad defense can be bad coaching, absolutely. What you're saying is the equivalent of saying every team in the league uses the same route trees, therefore bad offense must mean bad players, it's both.

Coverage, what you show pre-snap, post snap, personnel decisions, front, are you running stunts, etc. It's dynamic, and while every team uses all of those coverages, the way they're presented and what goes on in the front and what you're showing vs. what you're doing are all very different. There can be a great deal of creativity expressed on defense.

Coaching here matters, just look at Jamal Adams in NY vs. what he's done here as a Seahawk even while healthy. Or look at how we used Michael Bennett vs. how Tampa used him in Seattle or Red Bryant vs. how Mora used him, etc, etc so on and so forth.

So let me get this straight.

For the past decade all this forum did was complain about how Pete's a defensive coach, he can't coach or scheme offense, we need to let Russ cook, no more boring predictable Pete-ball, blah blah blah.

And the very first year that we all have the revelation that it was never Pete, it was the limitations of our QB combined with a very large majority of our cap being dedicated to an aging often injured defense that could no longer play at the level they used to play at.........we all now think Pete and his coordinators can't coach defense?

Sorry, I'm not down with the moving of the goal post knee jerk flavor of the week hot takes.

If the 2022 Seahawks have proven anything, it's that Pete Carroll can coach, and coach at a VERY high level in this league. So until I see the defense playing poorly with a healthy talented roster of players and not one of the worst front sevens in team history and young secondary? Nope. Not buying what you guys are knee jerking about Pete and his coordinators not being able to coach defense.
 
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