Is PC's competition mantra too much pressure on the players?

In light of the Irvin suspension, I cannot help but speculate is PC's attitude towards competition forcing the players to feel like they need to break the rules in order to make the roster. Other than Sherman, all of the 6 current or former players suspended for PED under PCJS were 2nd and 3rd stringers; in other words all those suspended were those who were backup/depth players who have been made no promises for job security unless they bring it each and every day.

While I love the competition attitude and the way that it has resulted in a talented, dynamic roster that can contend for the NFC, I feel this might be an unintended consequence of PC's philosophy of competition.

What do u think 12's? Is this totally crazy? Am I just trying to pin Irvin's dumb mistake on his team's leadership?

After the whole team saw Sherman's luck in avoiding a suspension last year why would anybody risk taking Adderll and risking a suspension and hurting the team? The only reason I can come up with is that Bruce felt he needed an edge to make it. I wonder if this is the downside to "Always Compete".

I'm gonna go with no

I'm thinking its more of being young and stupid. Our team is young

Oh for god sakes!

entropyrulesall":1fh7t4qe said:

Other than Sherman, all of the 6 current or former players suspended for PED under PCJS were 2nd and 3rd stringers; in other words all those suspended were those who were backup/depth players who have been made no promises for job security unless they bring it each and every day.

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Browner is a 2nd or 3rd stringer? That's news to me.

The competition mantra certainly DOES put pressure on everyone to overachieve, so in that sense, every player is looking over their shoulders, knowing there is always a chance the "next guy steps up"....and takes their place....starter or otherwise.

I think that's the way it should be though. Compete or go home. I admired the Ruskell "sentiment" at the time, but soon came to hate the goody-two-shoes crap that ended up making our team into a hollow shell filled with high character, low talent losers. I also agree that this is starting to make us look bad. What are Pete and John going to do? It's gotta be SOMETHING.

It's one of those things that can potentially be a trade-off of sorts. His mantra can instill a singular purpose into a player's understanding of himself. When violinists identify themselves as musicians and that their craft is basically a part of their personal identity, scientists have discovered it tends to result in them practicing more efficiently than those who do not make such distinctions about themselves, regardless of their skill level.

It's possible PC's various slogans, like Earn Everything, Win Forever, and his primary mantra, Always Compete, and the general attitude he exudes have a similar effect on the players, leading them to practice more efficiently and whatever other benefits that offers. This would explain parts of the edge and prideful nastiness we've taken up under PC, particularly the with much less coached, but renegade and ass kicking nonetheless, 3rd and 4th stringers of last pre-season.

But even solid methods have fall-out. The Japanese educational systems are noted for how well their students perform academically. They're also noted for how many commit suicide under the tremendous pressures. If Irvin is cutting corners because he doesn't think he can hack the competition of PC's system remains to be seen, but it's definitely an interesting concern to think about and certainly not as outlandish as some might suggest.

Every team has a similar level of competition. Every team has a certain number of players who can start, and a certain number of players who are on the team at all. (IE: 100 players might be at training camp with only 53 spots) All players on ever team have to compete to win those select few spots. Just because Pete says the word "competition" more than any other coach doesn't mean every other team doesn't have the same struggle and pressure on players to perform and earn playing time.

So overall, a ridiculous opinion, imo.

Nice points, BirdsCommaAngry. I've always liked research papers that utilized sources from different fields (like psychological study results to make points in a literary paper, etc). The Japanese example really slams your points home. The pressure to be elite is so far beyond our comprehension, but I think ultimately it will be a worthwhile price to pay to remain annually at the contender level. I certainly don't want to sound cold or unsympathetic to the fallout that causes to the people who end up caving to that pressure, but I would still rather have the team that we have right now than any we've ever had before........simply no contest there.

That DOES bring up the issue of Pete Carroll's ethics (wondering if he's silently or even worse yet OPENLY condoning this behavior - by way of omission). I never bought the Pete the Cheat crap out there that just drips with the odor of jealousy at an opposing coach's success, but the frequency of this occurring is starting to concern me a bit.

The whole concept of drug use in pro sports certainly is old news and I'm not one of those who feels it creates a horrible moral/ethical crisis (go find some REAL heroes to hold up as role models, like firefighters or something!). However I'll be concerned if this exposes a general pattern of bad decision-making (ie one DUI could be just bad luck or at least stupidity that they end up learning from - but multiple brushes with the law equals serious red flags). I sure hope that's ends up not being the case!

If it is too much pressure then they're awful and I hope we cut every single one of them.

Of course, I don't beleive for one second that this had anything to do with Pete's Mantra.

therealjohncarlson":1bnd8g8i said:

Every team has a similar level of competition. Every team has a certain number of players who can start, and a certain number of players who are on the team at all. (IE: 100 players might be at training camp with only 53 spots) All players on ever team have to compete to win those select few spots. Just because Pete says the word "competition" more than any other coach doesn't mean every other team doesn't have the same struggle and pressure on players to perform and earn playing time.

So overall, a ridiculous opinion, imo.

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Can't disagree with anything you said. Although it at least FEELS like Pete has found a way to ramp up the pressure somehow so that it's felt more than it does at at least most of the other 31 teams. Of course that could be wishful thinking on my part

Hopefully not though. Pete seems to have come up with a literally winning formula that he's now successfully transferred to the NFL level. I'd fervently hoped that would happen when I first heard he was hired.

I find it interesting that so many people are piling on the player at this point. Clearly, there is absolutely an advantage to the player if he is not caught, so it could be he acted on his own.

What is not clear is whether or not the decision was influenced at all, or whether he might not have acted on his own. We don't know.

2 or 3 people having a problem can be explained away but 6+ is usually the indicator of something systemic.

It certainly hints at it, enough that piling on the player for being "stupid" might not be correct. If this was a one-off thing, one would expect that a clutch of teammates getting caught would dissuade/frighten a potential violator. That all that happened and someone continued to engage in violations tends to hint at something else, perhaps someone just caught in a process.

If this was not the Seahawks and I was looking at this impartially there is no way I would believe that 6+ players could engage in this behavior without at least some knowledge of the coaching staff.

I am sure we have all been placed in situations professionally where we were asked/demanded to do something that outwardly the boss would profess to be against, but that in reality the boss was actively encouraging.

I am not saying that was in the case in this instance, but I am saying I doubt this was just Irvin acting alone.

In the security field, when the C-levels would know about risks, do nothing about them, and then make sure there was no trail that would point to their knowing, they would call trying to keep Plausible Deniability. Nobody wants proof in place that they knew about a violation, or worse encouraged it.

The # of violations points to either a pattern or something systemic. I really doubt this was all Irvin "just being dumb".

TwistedHusky":8ayy3q2s said:

In the security field, when the C-levels would know about risks, do nothing about them, and then make sure there was no trail that would point to their knowing, they would call trying to keep Plausible Deniability. Nobody wants proof in place that they knew about a violation, or worse encouraged it.

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Unfortunately that's true, whether in the Medical field, the corporate world or even in the Military (I've seen it while working in all those situations). It's sometimes called being a professional scapegoat (or the old phrase about shit rolling downhill). I'm not ready to believe something like that in Irvin's case (it just feels at this point like carelessness on his part), at least until more details come out. I guess in this dead space of the off season, such news might be all we get for a while. Sucks if such negativity is all we have to look forward to for a while.

I just want to clarify that I love what the competition mantra has done to our team and am currently reading Pete Carroll's book "Win Forever". This isn't about the coaches being culpable for PED use by the players, at least I hope to God they aren't; I'm wondering if this might be an unintended consequence of the coach's philosophy of competition or else.

Although high competition may have been a motivator in his decision, ultimately each person has a choice as to how they react to competition. To suggest that the "always compete" mantra caused him to do this is passing the buck. Too often we try to blame others or our circumstances for our poor choices. I believe his choice was a reflection on the character of the young man, not a reflection on the organization.

In light of the growing popularity With PED's in your guys locker room, do you guys think that your teams sudden emergence as a contender and the coinciding positive drug tests on your team go hand in hand, or just a coincidence?

NinerLifer":17mvilii said:

In light of the growing popularity With PED's in your guys locker room, do you guys think that your teams sudden emergence as a contender and the coinciding positive drug tests on your team go hand in hand, or just a coincidence?

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No, its this guy

I believe it is possible it could be an unintended consequence of the Always Compete mantra, but only for players not mentally tough enough for this team, which would imply PC/JS didn't do a thorough enough pre-draft interview with him.

As far as the notion of it being encouraged by the coaches in any way, I couldn't disagree more. It would be as bad as the Saints bounty scandal, and impossible to hide forever, with possibly similar consequences.

Throwdown":c77gdpd3 said:

NinerLifer":c77gdpd3 said:

In light of the growing popularity With PED's in your guys locker room, do you guys think that your teams sudden emergence as a contender and the coinciding positive drug tests on your team go hand in hand, or just a coincidence?

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No, its this guy

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I agree.

I imagine that this MB would go into complete meltdown if a report came out that showed RW tested positive for PED's next.

Woof, really?

No, OP, almost all players try to get an edge in any way they can. This is the highest level of the game and a whole lot of money is at stake. You only get one or MAAAAAYBE two shots at a big contract if you are lucky.

NinerLifer":nziptmd7 said:

In light of the growing popularity With PED's in your guys locker room, do you guys think that your teams sudden emergence as a contender and the coinciding positive drug tests on your team go hand in hand, or just a coincidence?

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6 guys out of 53 + practice squad over two years I would say no. It takes far more players than that to put a contender on the field. These just happen to be the lowest in the IQ ranking of the entire group. These aren't mistakes these are decisions made by players that don't have the brains of a jackass.