Wilson's First 3 Years Are Arguably the Best in NFL History

[RichNhansom]

Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row..

During Favre's two-year stint with the Vikings, their defense ranked:
- 10th in points per game in 2009 (19.5/g)
- 18th in points per game in 2010 (21.9/g)

How is that "the best", let alone comparable to a historically-great Seattle defense?

Also, doesn't the fact that a garbage quarterback like Mark ****ing Sanchez was able to take a team to the championship game demonstrate how far a good supporting cast can carry a quarterback? (Just to be clear, Wilson is miles ahead of Sanchez... but when I read stuff like 'we wouldn't have made it the Super Bowl without Wilson" [when he had a 13.6 QBR and a 44.3 rating in the NFCCG] I can't help but think people are romanticizing a little bit.)

Saying we couldn't have made it to the super bowl is a valid comment. If they were saying we couldn't have won it without him then I agree but Wilson was vital in multiple of our wins and I cannot think of a single game he single handedly cost us. Even that NFCC Game against GB where his stats were bad it was him taking over that game even after an atrocious start, to win that game. Many QB's would not have been able to perform with our system, receivers, O-line and in this division as well as Wilson did.

As for the Vikings maybe I am remembering their run defense. Farve had Harvin in addition to AP didn't he?

A good receiving corp can make a bad QB look average (Ponder) and a good QB look great just like a bad set can make a great QB look average and an average QB look poor. I honestly think that is what we are seeing with Wilson and now with Jimmy I think we will see a significant improvement.

I might be wrong here, but I don't really see us being able to get Jimmy Graham involved in the traditional way. That just isn't our game. Russell doesn't exactly excel in throwing those seam routes that are making Graham famous. Those are read and dissect plays, and we don't do those well. I think when Russell scrambles is when he is going to look for Graham the most. He can throw it up to him and wait for him to get open and stuff like that. I'm actually afraid that Russell looks for him a bit too much and hangs him out to dry.

One of our problems on the O-line is having to protect to long as well as protect a moving subject. This has been a complaint of mine since Wilson got here but I have seen us try and move more to the 3 step drop and get the ball out quicker. Sometimes poorly but it appears the effort is there. This is important because you really have to consider what it takes for that type of passing game to be successful. It requires timing and consistency, something other than Baldwin our entire receiving corp lacks and without the benefit of a dominant #1 receiver or TE defenses were taking away our only consistent threat in Bladwin. Plus we were moving using him as a #1 when he clearly is not.

Jimmy can play TE or receiver and will demand either double coverage or opponents best corners. Even if we are not getting him the ball he should be making it easier for Baldwin and hopefully we can use Baldwin in the slot instead of outside.

I have my concerns as well and I do worry that Jimmy either won't work in our system or that we focus to heavily on him but comparing our receiving corp with him vs last year with no threat of any kind, it feels safe to believe he will improve our passing game. The bonus is that defenses will still have to account for Lynch and Wilson's mobility and improvisation. They can try and play single high safety but it will likely be at their own peril.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

But the issue of having to protect too long coupled with having a mobile quarterback is more about having an OL not built to be any better then passable at pass blocking combined with the type of pass offense we run not Wilson. You want less sacks and more realibility? Then do what the majority does and adopt the dink and dunk instead of the high leverage splash play passing offense we run currently.

Jimmy will transform this offense as that safety blanket like Gronkowski does for Brady except unlike Brady, Wilson can throw the deep ball so priority number one in the draft is a speedster so we can hold on until or if Richardson returns so we can force teams to go with seven man boxes or get killed deep fast and often.

 

[Anthony!]

One of our problems on the O-line is having to protect to long as well as protect a moving subject. This has been a complaint of mine since Wilson got here but I have seen us try and move more to the 3 step drop and get the ball out quicker. Sometimes poorly but it appears the effort is there. This is important because you really have to consider what it takes for that type of passing game to be successful. It requires timing and consistency, something other than Baldwin our entire receiving corp lacks and without the benefit of a dominant #1 receiver or TE defenses were taking away our only consistent threat in Bladwin. Plus we were moving using him as a #1 when he clearly is not.

Jimmy can play TE or receiver and will demand either double coverage or opponents best corners. Even if we are not getting him the ball he should be making it easier for Baldwin and hopefully we can use Baldwin in the slot instead of outside.

I have my concerns as well and I do worry that Jimmy either won't work in our system or that we focus to heavily on him but comparing our receiving corp with him vs last year with no threat of any kind, it feels safe to believe he will improve our passing game. The bonus is that defenses will still have to account for Lynch and Wilson's mobility and improvisation. They can try and play single high safety but it will likely be at their own peril.

So the fact that on avg Wilson has had less than 3 seconds to throw the ball is his fault HMM. His mobility causes the problem HMMM. So if that is true how come in 2011 with a much less mobile QB we were still ranked 24th in p[ass blocking? Answer is simple it is not Wilson that is the issue it is the oline and its lack of pass blocking. Yet another thing all the experts have pointed out, and that I think the experts know more than the guy with the agenda. In fact on avg Wilson had 1.53 seconds to pressure, in case you are wondering that was second worse in the league. The article make sit clear the difference between time to throw and time to pressure. Even When Wilson doe snot throw it till well after 3 seconds his time to pressure is still under 3 seconds

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2 ... -to-throw/

In fact here is the break down by time to throw for Wilson

Wilson time to throw 1.60 seconds, time to pressure 1.53 this happened on 109 of his drop backs
Wilson time to throw 2.27 seconds, time to pressure 1.96 seconds this happened on 99 of his drop backs
Wilson time to throw 2.79 seconds, time to pressure 2.29 seconds, this happens on 70 of his drop backs
Wilson time to throw 3.26 seconds, time to pressure 2.33 seconds, this happens on 52 of his drop backs
Wilson time to throw 4.92 seconds, time to pressure 2.78 seconds, this happens on 164 of his drop backs

So the issue here is not time to throw but time to pressure which in every case avg well under 3 seconds which is what an Oline is suppose to give their QB. Also Wilsons time to Pressure in every case is below the league avg, meaning he is getting pressures a lot and to fast. It also shows Wilson mobility is what provides the time for him to get the ball away more often than not.

So there are facts showing very clearly the oline and their lack of pass blocking is the main issue.

 

[Tical21]

Okay so what is your excuse for the NFCCG and Super Bowl where he had all day to throw HMMM?

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Okay so what is your excuse for the NFCCG and Super Bowl where he had all day to throw HMMM?

How about a secondary that was barely worse then ours WHEN healthy or the fact that Browner knew EXACTLY what play was coming and informed his teammates accordingly? Or the fact that film can show a guy is wide open yet mean exactly nothing or the exact opposite in real time because of multiple factors, most of which are even pretty obvious.

Question, when this topic ever going to die for you Tical21? We get it already, you don't want to pay the man but fact is you better deal with the fact that we will do just that despite Anthony! going off the deep end playing devil's advocate for whatever reason.

This is how the negotiation game plays out with any starting quarterback let alone franchise and/or elite level quarterbacks.

The guy is elite because the results say so. The method doesn't factor into it. It's all about the result. And the results say he wins at a level pretty much only Otto Graham tops.

It'd be nice to see him have an OL that at least has some concept of pass blocking and a couple of receivers that aren't some UDFA or some CFL project before condemning him. Maybe that's just me though.

You know how Kansas City can never get an actual quarterback on their own? We seem to be that way with wide receivers. Our best receiver in franchise history was some slow, short, thin white guy we get for something like a 434th round pick from the Houston Oilers because they were going to cut him anyway. Just weird and goes to show you that a little patience might be the logical thing to try.

 

[Tical21]

Okay so what is your excuse for the NFCCG and Super Bowl where he had all day to throw HMMM?

How about a secondary that was barely worse then ours WHEN healthy or the fact that Browner knew EXACTLY what play was coming and informed his teammates accordingly? Or the fact that film can show a guy is wide open yet mean exactly nothing or the exact opposite in real time because of multiple factors, most of which are even pretty obvious.

Question, when this topic ever going to die for you Tical21? We get it already, you don't want to pay the man but fact is you better deal with the fact that we will do just that despite Anthony! going off the deep end playing devil's advocate for whatever reason.

This is how the negotiation game plays out with any starting quarterback let alone franchise and/or elite level quarterbacks.

The guy is elite because the results say so. The method doesn't factor into it. It's all about the result. And the results say he wins at a level pretty much only Otto Graham tops.

It'd be nice to see him have an OL that at least has some concept of pass blocking and a couple of receivers that aren't some UDFA or some CFL project before condemning him. Maybe that's just me though.

Tebow lost what, one game as a starter? I guess he is elite too?

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Okay so what is your excuse for the NFCCG and Super Bowl where he had all day to throw HMMM?

How about a secondary that was barely worse then ours WHEN healthy or the fact that Browner knew EXACTLY what play was coming and informed his teammates accordingly? Or the fact that film can show a guy is wide open yet mean exactly nothing or the exact opposite in real time because of multiple factors, most of which are even pretty obvious.

Question, when this topic ever going to die for you Tical21? We get it already, you don't want to pay the man but fact is you better deal with the fact that we will do just that despite Anthony! going off the deep end playing devil's advocate for whatever reason.

This is how the negotiation game plays out with any starting quarterback let alone franchise and/or elite level quarterbacks.

The guy is elite because the results say so. The method doesn't factor into it. It's all about the result. And the results say he wins at a level pretty much only Otto Graham tops.

It'd be nice to see him have an OL that at least has some concept of pass blocking and a couple of receivers that aren't some UDFA or some CFL project before condemning him. Maybe that's just me though.

Tebow lost what, one game as a starter? I guess he is elite too?

Talk about being purposely obtuse. You have better things to do and you and I know it. Tebow couldn't even get on the field with Mark Sanchez as his competition. Or wait, next you'll tell me Mr. Coin Flip would have gotten us to consequective Superbowls, winning one and not actually losing the other given there are 11 guys all trying to stop him and some of them are really good also.

Yet Mr. Coin Flip has about the same basic team and finds ways to lose in any and all situations while guiding us to 7-9 the ultimate in mediocrity. Yet you're pretty much on record for saying you'd prefer that kind of inept level of performance. Yeah ok.

 

[Anthony!]

Okay so what is your excuse for the NFCCG and Super Bowl where he had all day to throw HMMM?

How about a secondary that was barely worse then ours WHEN healthy or the fact that Browner knew EXACTLY what play was coming and informed his teammates accordingly? Or the fact that film can show a guy is wide open yet mean exactly nothing or the exact opposite in real time because of multiple factors, most of which are even pretty obvious.

Question, when this topic ever going to die for you Tical21? We get it already, you don't want to pay the man but fact is you better deal with the fact that we will do just that despite Anthony! going off the deep end playing devil's advocate for whatever reason.

This is how the negotiation game plays out with any starting quarterback let alone franchise and/or elite level quarterbacks.

The guy is elite because the results say so. The method doesn't factor into it. It's all about the result. And the results say he wins at a level pretty much only Otto Graham tops.

It'd be nice to see him have an OL that at least has some concept of pass blocking and a couple of receivers that aren't some UDFA or some CFL project before condemning him. Maybe that's just me though.

Tebow lost what, one game as a starter? I guess he is elite too?

Talk about being purposely obtuse. You have better things to do and you and I know it. Tebow couldn't even get on the field with Mark Sanchez as his competition. Or wait, next you'll tell me Mr. Coin Flip would have gotten us to consequective Superbowls, winning one and not actually losing the other given there are 11 guys all trying to stop him and some of them are really good also.

Yet Mr. Coin Flip has about the same basic team and finds ways to lose in any and all situations while guiding us to 7-9 the ultimate in mediocrity. Yet you're pretty much on record for saying you'd prefer that kind of inept level of performance. Yeah ok.

add to that Tebow lost way more than 1 game as a starter Tebow was 8-6 as a starter in the regular season so he lost way more than 1 game

And the fact Tebow never had a season QB rating over 83, let alone 95 or more. Had a career 48% complt %.

No as to me going off the deep end, no I have said I still think it gets done, my point has been there are still concerns and what ifs, more now than before, and people who think no big deal we will just tab him, need to realize that the possibility of tagging him could be gone. Again I think something gets done, I just do not feel good about what is going on right now.

 

[RichNhansom]

I hadn't even considered that Trical might think we shouldn't resign Wilson. Is that True Trical or are you just thinking we shouldn't go over say 8 Mill?

As for franchise tagging Wilson it absolutely won't happen. Way to many teams would line up and offer him a bigger contract than us and not even question two first round picks to make it happen. If you don't believe this then your foolish and that should be all you need to know as to whether Wilson is elite or not or at least among the best QB's in the league.

 

[OkieHawk]

I can't believe this thread is still going....

 

[pmedic920]

Only because it's the off season, and news is slow.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

I don't believe for one minute that they will tag him I just mentioned it because it's a logical option they have. Realistically two first round picks combined with a mega contract is no small potatoes for most teams.

I'm not really worried because I believe all this current posturing on both sides is just a normal part of the process. I've seen it before when I lived in other places that went through negotiations with quarterbacks everyone considered at least franchise level if not elite also.

 

[KiwiHawk]

Any QB in the league can succeed with time to throw and open receivers.

What separates Wilson from the pack is his ability to make not only plays but spectacular plays when he's pressured or when the receivers need more time to get separation. Wilson can extend the play and then make the correct decision with the ball, even if that decision is to take the big sack. More often than not, however, the extended plays turn into positives.

The threat of this sort of "magic" means teams have to game-plan for Wilson specifically. They often do that with a linebacker spy to keep him in the pocket or at least not let him get to the edge when he runs. This is hugely important because the offense generally plays at a numeric disadvantage. The defense rushes 4 guys against your 5 guys who are protecting 1 guy, so you basically have 5 other offensive guys against 7 other defensive guys. If you can change that to 5 on 6 by making one guy watch out for your mobile QB, that creates opportunity.

At any time, Wilson will go off the play sheet, and in general he does so smartly. He still has plenty to learn, particularly when it comes to starting out games and being baited into going off-page by a false defensive look. He'll improve over time, and he'll have that time because he avoids collisions and is careful with his body to avoid injury.

 

[Anthony!]

Any QB in the league can succeed with time to throw and open receivers.

What separates Wilson from the pack is his ability to make not only plays but spectacular plays when he's pressured or when the receivers need more time to get separation. Wilson can extend the play and then make the correct decision with the ball, even if that decision is to take the big sack. More often than not, however, the extended plays turn into positives.

The threat of this sort of "magic" means teams have to game-plan for Wilson specifically. They often do that with a linebacker spy to keep him in the pocket or at least not let him get to the edge when he runs. This is hugely important because the offense generally plays at a numeric disadvantage. The defense rushes 4 guys against your 5 guys who are protecting 1 guy, so you basically have 5 other offensive guys against 7 other defensive guys. If you can change that to 5 on 6 by making one guy watch out for your mobile QB, that creates opportunity.

At any time, Wilson will go off the play sheet, and in general he does so smartly. He still has plenty to learn, particularly when it comes to starting out games and being baited into going off-page by a false defensive look. He'll improve over time, and he'll have that time because he avoids collisions and is careful with his body to avoid injury.

Everything you just said is true just look at his time to throw vs time to pressure.


His time to pressure is 2.76 seconds but his time to throw is 4.92 the amongst the biggest difference of any starting QB with over 100 drop backs. That means he is providing an additional 2.16 seconds to his Wr and saving a lot of sacks.

 

[JimmyG]

FYI Minny was 6th in YPG in 2009 and 6th in YPG in 2010 and they were 13th in PPG in 2010 not 18th they avg 20.8 not 21.9

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... /year/2008

We're talking about 2010, and yet you linked to stats from 2008. What!?

 

[Tical21]

Yep, that failure to read defenses must all be the line's fault.

 

[Anthony!]

FYI Minny was 6th in YPG in 2009 and 6th in YPG in 2010 and they were 13th in PPG in 2010 not 18th they avg 20.8 not 21.9

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... /year/2008

We're talking about 2010, and yet you linked to stats from 2008. What!?

Hmm that's weird could have sworn on was on 2009 and 2010 which were the years Favre was QB for Minny, sorry about that , so okay lets see

2009 6th in YPG 10th in PPG so you were still wrong there
2010 8th in YPG you were correct on points 18th however the difference between 18th and top 10 was less than 2 points so still pretty good.


So basically they were top 10 in 2009 in both categories and top 10 in YPG in 2010 still very good, and the original point still stands.

 

[Tical21]

Any QB in the league can succeed with time to throw and open receivers.

What separates Wilson from the pack is his ability to make not only plays but spectacular plays when he's pressured or when the receivers need more time to get separation. Wilson can extend the play and then make the correct decision with the ball, even if that decision is to take the big sack. More often than not, however, the extended plays turn into positives.

The threat of this sort of "magic" means teams have to game-plan for Wilson specifically. They often do that with a linebacker spy to keep him in the pocket or at least not let him get to the edge when he runs. This is hugely important because the offense generally plays at a numeric disadvantage. The defense rushes 4 guys against your 5 guys who are protecting 1 guy, so you basically have 5 other offensive guys against 7 other defensive guys. If you can change that to 5 on 6 by making one guy watch out for your mobile QB, that creates opportunity.

At any time, Wilson will go off the play sheet, and in general he does so smartly. He still has plenty to learn, particularly when it comes to starting out games and being baited into going off-page by a false defensive look. He'll improve over time, and he'll have that time because he avoids collisions and is careful with his body to avoid injury.

Everything you just said is true just look at his time to throw vs time to pressure.


His time to pressure is 2.76 seconds but his time to throw is 4.92 the amongst the biggest difference of any starting QB with over 100 drop backs. That means he is providing an additional 2.16 seconds to his Wr and saving a lot of sacks.

That isn't what it means at all. We are one of the most blitzed teams in the NFL. All these numbers mean is that Russ can't recognize the blitz and get rid of the football. Seriously, how many times can you see the blitz coming on tv, or in person with your charts in your case, and you yell "get rid of it Russ!!!!", but instead he runs backwards?

If he could read a blitz and burn it more often he wouldn't get blitzed so often. What a concept!!

 

[RichNhansom]

Any QB in the league can succeed with time to throw and open receivers.

What separates Wilson from the pack is his ability to make not only plays but spectacular plays when he's pressured or when the receivers need more time to get separation. Wilson can extend the play and then make the correct decision with the ball, even if that decision is to take the big sack. More often than not, however, the extended plays turn into positives.

The threat of this sort of "magic" means teams have to game-plan for Wilson specifically. They often do that with a linebacker spy to keep him in the pocket or at least not let him get to the edge when he runs. This is hugely important because the offense generally plays at a numeric disadvantage. The defense rushes 4 guys against your 5 guys who are protecting 1 guy, so you basically have 5 other offensive guys against 7 other defensive guys. If you can change that to 5 on 6 by making one guy watch out for your mobile QB, that creates opportunity.

At any time, Wilson will go off the play sheet, and in general he does so smartly. He still has plenty to learn, particularly when it comes to starting out games and being baited into going off-page by a false defensive look. He'll improve over time, and he'll have that time because he avoids collisions and is careful with his body to avoid injury.

Everything you just said is true just look at his time to throw vs time to pressure.


His time to pressure is 2.76 seconds but his time to throw is 4.92 the amongst the biggest difference of any starting QB with over 100 drop backs. That means he is providing an additional 2.16 seconds to his Wr and saving a lot of sacks.

That isn't what it means at all. We are one of the most blitzed teams in the NFL. All these numbers mean is that Russ can't recognize the blitz and get rid of the football. Seriously, how many times can you see the blitz coming on tv, or in person with your charts in your case, and you yell "get rid of it Russ!!!!", but instead he runs backwards?

If he could read a blitz and burn it more often he wouldn't get blitzed so often. What a concept!!

To be fair the blitzing has more to do with the lack of respect for our receiving corp and O-line. Again lets see how or if that changes with Jimmy on the field. I believe it will significantly. I think you can also include Wilson's trust level of our receivers getting open also. I do think lack of recognition and being able to change the call also play into it but again he is a 3rd year QB. He shouldn't be expected to be elite in that category just yet.

 

[JimmyG]

2009 6th in YPG 10th in PPG so you were still wrong there
2010 8th in YPG you were correct on points 18th however the difference between 18th and top 10 was less than 2 points so still pretty good.

I said they were 10th in PPG in 2009; you respond by saying that they were 10th in PPG game and that "[I'm] still wrong there." What!?

Dude, I don't know if you're being deliberately obtuse or what, but it's taken about 5 posts from you to completely wear out of my patience. I don't really have any interest in continuing a discussion with you on this (or anything else, for that matter).