Wilson's First 3 Years Are Arguably the Best in NFL History

kearly

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Something I find to be increasingly true every year is that Pete Carroll is a believer in acquiring talent to fit specific roles. Whether it be edge rushers, Red Bryant types, huge corners, and a safety duo that could not be any more specialized in what they do. On offense, he's had guys like Takuafu and Coleman at FB, and they could not be any more different.

The reason for this is because Pete would rather have a player who is outstanding in one area even at the expense of other areas as opposed to a well rounded player who is just average. This is partly because these types of players are labeled as misfits by other FO's and makes them a market inefficiency, and it's also because Pete is a brilliant schemer who can hide those player's weaknesses most of the time.

Whenever I look at the draft or free agency, I look at players who are elite in one area but may be lacking in others. The Graham trade didn't shock me at all, because it fit the MO. Graham is really awesome catching the football, especially in the redzone... but not so awesome at blocking. Hey guess what?! That more or less describes the rest of our current TE group as well. Remember when Seattle traded a ton to get Percy Harvin? Was he well rounded? No, but he is one of the most gifted players in NFL history with the ball in his hands. How about when they drafted a 220 lbs. RB who broke the vertical jump record? Did he have issues in other areas? Shit yes. Same thing for guys like Sherman, Kam, and Maxwell.

When I look at Baldwin, I see a WR who's greatest strength might be the scramble drill. He is okay in other areas, but it's the improv side of his game that gives Seattle the most value. When I look at Kearse, I see a WR who is WAAAAY better than he should be on deep targets, a guy Russell trusts like none other on the deep ball. If Kearse did not have this skill, and if Russ didn't need the deep ball to work so badly to inflate his efficiency numbers, Kearse probably would be in the CFL right now. Yet though both Baldwin and Kearse are flawed, Seattle got both in UDFA basically for free, and both have served vital roles when used correctly.

One of the reasons Seattle HAD to give Kearse a decent chunk of money this offseason is because the team's second best deep ball threat after Kearse is a huge dropoff in that specific area. This is why the DGB rumors make a lot of sense to me, and why I think Devin Smith would make a ton of sense as well. Are these guys "complete" WRs? No, but they are awesome in a specific area that our offense is in need of.

I guess the point I'm making is this. To objectively measure any Seahawks contributor as a "complete" player misses the point. Almost every single player on Seattle's roster is a specialist of some kind, right down to the run first OL and rabbit QB. Sometimes going the specialist route will have its growing pains and difficult moments. Even a few ugly failures. But this approach has also quickly made Seattle one of the most effective teams in NFL history. Russ is not a complete QB, but he is a highly effective one. Our WRs are not complete, but when used correctly, they can be effective. And so on.
 

MizzouHawkGal

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As usual Kearly, an articulate and well thought out post that has me thinking about adopting a wider thought process concerning Wilson. Basically it's an interesting and thought provoking post on many levels about many things Seahawk top to bottom.
 

JimmyG

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kearly":ml6mt8ym said:
I guess the point I'm making is this. To objectively measure any Seahawks contributor as a "complete" player misses the point. Almost every single player on Seattle's roster is a specialist of some kind, right down to the run first OL and rabbit QB. Sometimes going the specialist route will have its growing pains and difficult moments. Even a few ugly failures. But this approach has also quickly made Seattle one of the most effective teams in NFL history. Russ is not a complete QB, but he is a highly effective one. Our WRs are not complete, but when used correctly, they can be effective. And so on.
I think this is a tremendous point.

I think this is especially true for our receivers. A receiver in our offense is analogous to, say... a running back in the Manning-era Denver Broncos offense. Since Manning arrived, the Broncos have had a revolving door of running backs, and yet they continue to have success. A 31-year-old Willis McGahee in 2012, Knowshon Moreno/Montee Ball in 2013, and then of course the meteoric rise of UDFA CJ Anderson in 2014. Teams scheme against Manning/the passing game, which opens up running lanes and allows Denver to succeed with mediocre backs; similarly, teams scheme against Lynch/Wilson's legs, which opens up passing lanes (especially downfield) and allows mediocre receivers to have success.

Another specific example of "playing to a skillset" would be Chris Matthews. Matthews is very raw (practice squad for most of the year, etc). In the first half of the Super Bowl, he looked like a superstar. Coming into the game, I'm sure Carroll and Bevell knew we'd be seeing a lot of Cover 1, and indeed we consistently saw Devin McCourty as a single-high safety. We exploited this on offense, and consistently took shots to Chris Matthews (6'5", 218 lbs) who absolutely abused Kyle Arrington (5'10", 190 lbs). Once they put Browner on him, he was basically completely shut down (1 catch, 9 yards). The point is that Matthews has flaws and is very limited, but when put in the right role he had outstanding success.

It's really a lot like a platoon player in baseball.
 

WilsonMVP

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Tical21":1ir3nn0v said:
This thought of Marshawn benefitting from Russ as much as Russ does from him is delusional bs. Seattle faces an extra safety in the box more than any other team in the NFL. That helps Marshawn? Huh? Teams have to play simple schemes without much emphasis on stopping the pass. There is less emphasis on stopping our passing game than any other team in the NFL. In large part because we haven't shown the ability to throw it well enough to get them out of it. Ask the elite quarterbacks what they would think of facing a single high safety all game, every game. Nobody benefits from their RB the way Russell does. Marshawn benefits a little from the read option, but would benefit exponentially more from a dangerous passing attack.

Christian Ponder and Tjack should of been the best QBs ever with AP in the backfield. You apparently havent watched vikings game as the D plays AP more with a safety than the Seahawks face.
 

Tical21

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Actually, TJack was coming around. He posted a 95 Rating in his third season and was improving until Favre came. I don't know that Jim Brown could have propped up Christian Ponder.
 

theincrediblesok

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Wait a minute didn't you say that since Wilson doesn't throw as much that we shouldn't regard Wilson's stats as anything, yet you give props to TJ on his 3rd year that he got a 95 rating....with 9TD and 2INT with only 1k yards of passing.
 

Anthony!

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theincrediblesok":tzobuzs0 said:
Wait a minute didn't you say that since Wilson doesn't throw as much that we shouldn't regard Wilson's stats as anything, yet you give props to TJ on his 3rd year that he got a 95 rating....with 9TD and 2INT with only 1k yards of passing.

Actually that whole disregard because he doe snot throw enough is not true. once you get over 400 attempts you got more than enough sample size to know. Add to that less attempts gives you less margin for error. for example. If you throw the ball only 25 times a game and start 1-10 you need to go 15-15 to get to 16-25 and 64% compt%. If you throw the ball 35 times and start 1-10 you can go 21-25 for a total of 22-35 and 63% So you have more margin for error. Less attempts means less margin for error and once you hit 400 a season your sample size is more than big enough. So sorry but Wilson stats do mean something and every expert out there has said that, and I will go with the experts over a person with an obvious agenda and hate for Wilson who speaks out of both sides of their mouths, by saying we should ignore Wilson do to low attempts but we should praise TJ despite even lower attempts. The facts and stats are undeniable about Wilson he is a great QB who has had arguably the best first 3 years of any QB in the league. Those are facts.
 

Tical21

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A fact, by definition, is something that cannot be argued.
 

Tical21

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FWIW, I've mentioned many times on this very board that Russell Wilson is an elite NFL talent and an elite football player, just not an elite passer. He just doesn't read defenses quickly enough and make decisions quickly enough and complete passes into windows.

Hypothetically, Anthony!, what would it ever have to take for you to admit that Russell Wilson isn't an elite passer? Is there anything I could show you? Are there any circumstances that could happen? I believe that if Russell completed 50% of his passes and held the ball way too long and took too many sacks and threw a bunch of turnovers, you would still make a billion excuses for him and not believe he isn't the end-all-be-all of quarterbacks. Am I correct?
 

Tical21

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Anthony!":fuwljbs3 said:
SoulfishHawk":fuwljbs3 said:
#3 doesn't get it? Um.....ok
They don't come close to the Super Bowl appearances w/out Russ.

Agreed
What does this even mean? If they had a kitten playing quarterback they might have had some trouble. Does this mean they don't come close to the Super Bowl with Drew Brees?

One of the best defenses in the history of the NFL and Marshawn Lynch. I dunno, I think one could safely assume that quite a few quarterbacks could be successful in that situation.
 

RichNhansom

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Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row. The thing your also ignoring is the schedule those teams played and the division strength during their run.

Wilson has an elite defense and elite RB in Lynch but poor O-line play and WR's and he is playing in the toughest division in football. 2013 the Patriots lost Gronk, Hernandez and Welker and still won 12 games and made the AFCCG. Sounds amazing right? Go look at the teams they beat to get their and Brady had several games with less than 50% completion rate. He did have Amendola and Edleman with Gronk intermittantly but the only reason they had the record and made the AFCCG was due to a powder puff schedule including only having to beat the Colts in Foxburough to get to the AFCCG,

It's one thing to have a poor receiving corp but to have poor protection on top of that would be more than enough to ruin a season for most QB's.
 

JimmyG

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RichNhansom":9xyrvsho said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row..
During Favre's two-year stint with the Vikings, their defense ranked:
- 10th in points per game in 2009 (19.5/g)
- 18th in points per game in 2010 (21.9/g)

How is that "the best", let alone comparable to a historically-great Seattle defense?

Also, doesn't the fact that a garbage quarterback like Mark ****ing Sanchez was able to take a team to the championship game demonstrate how far a good supporting cast can carry a quarterback? (Just to be clear, Wilson is miles ahead of Sanchez... but when I read stuff like 'we wouldn't have made it the Super Bowl without Wilson" [when he had a 13.6 QBR and a 44.3 rating in the NFCCG] I can't help but think people are romanticizing a little bit.)
 

Tical21

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RichNhansom":p1mt0yjy said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row. The thing your also ignoring is the schedule those teams played and the division strength during their run.

Wilson has an elite defense and elite RB in Lynch but poor O-line play and WR's and he is playing in the toughest division in football. 2013 the Patriots lost Gronk, Hernandez and Welker and still won 12 games and made the AFCCG. Sounds amazing right? Go look at the teams they beat to get their and Brady had several games with less than 50% completion rate. He did have Amendola and Edleman with Gronk intermittantly but the only reason they had the record and made the AFCCG was due to a powder puff schedule including only having to beat the Colts in Foxburough to get to the AFCCG,

It's one thing to have a poor receiving corp but to have poor protection on top of that would be more than enough to ruin a season for most QB's.
When you are talking about the best defenses in the history of the NFL, almost all of them won a Super Bowl, regardless of who their QB was.

Who are the teams on the short list for the best defense in NFL history?

Pitt of the 70's
Ravens
85 Bears
2002 Buccaneers
66 Packers
70's Dolphins
Some of those Steelers defenses, like 2008

Every one of those defenses won at least one Super Bowl, and almost all of them did so without stellar QB's.

The only one that didn't win one were the purple people eaters, and how many did they go to?

As I've said a bazillion times, I think Russell is really good, and just about as good as any 3rd year QB the league has ever seen. But I've also seen elite passers before. And he isn't one of them. He's just not. He doesn't have to be for us to win. He has to run it well and not turn the ball over, and hopefully make a couple plays out of his rear end. But he could make it a lot easier on himself by completing more relatively easy passes that are available to him through the normal playcalls. Until he shows the ability to do that on a more consistent basis, anybody calling him an "elite" passer, or comparing him to those that are, is delusional.
 

RichNhansom

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JimmyG":1oi8hopq said:
RichNhansom":1oi8hopq said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row..
During Favre's two-year stint with the Vikings, their defense ranked:
- 10th in points per game in 2009 (19.5/g)
- 18th in points per game in 2010 (21.9/g)

How is that "the best", let alone comparable to a historically-great Seattle defense?

Also, doesn't the fact that a garbage quarterback like Mark ****ing Sanchez was able to take a team to the championship game demonstrate how far a good supporting cast can carry a quarterback? (Just to be clear, Wilson is miles ahead of Sanchez... but when I read stuff like 'we wouldn't have made it the Super Bowl without Wilson" [when he had a 13.6 QBR and a 44.3 rating in the NFCCG] I can't help but think people are romanticizing a little bit.)


Saying we couldn't have made it to the super bowl is a valid comment. If they were saying we couldn't have won it without him then I agree but Wilson was vital in multiple of our wins and I cannot think of a single game he single handedly cost us. Even that NFCC Game against GB where his stats were bad it was him taking over that game even after an atrocious start, to win that game. Many QB's would not have been able to perform with our system, receivers, O-line and in this division as well as Wilson did.

As for the Vikings maybe I am remembering their run defense. Farve had Harvin in addition to AP didn't he?

A good receiving corp can make a bad QB look average (Ponder) and a good QB look great just like a bad set can make a great QB look average and an average QB look poor. I honestly think that is what we are seeing with Wilson and now with Jimmy I think we will see a significant improvement.
 

Tical21

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RichNhansom":1g9bnzqi said:
JimmyG":1g9bnzqi said:
RichNhansom":1g9bnzqi said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row..
During Favre's two-year stint with the Vikings, their defense ranked:
- 10th in points per game in 2009 (19.5/g)
- 18th in points per game in 2010 (21.9/g)

How is that "the best", let alone comparable to a historically-great Seattle defense?

Also, doesn't the fact that a garbage quarterback like Mark ****ing Sanchez was able to take a team to the championship game demonstrate how far a good supporting cast can carry a quarterback? (Just to be clear, Wilson is miles ahead of Sanchez... but when I read stuff like 'we wouldn't have made it the Super Bowl without Wilson" [when he had a 13.6 QBR and a 44.3 rating in the NFCCG] I can't help but think people are romanticizing a little bit.)


Saying we couldn't have made it to the super bowl is a valid comment. If they were saying we couldn't have won it without him then I agree but Wilson was vital in multiple of our wins and I cannot think of a single game he single handedly cost us. Even that NFCC Game against GB where his stats were bad it was him taking over that game even after an atrocious start, to win that game. Many QB's would not have been able to perform with our system, receivers, O-line and in this division as well as Wilson did.

As for the Vikings maybe I am remembering their run defense. Farve had Harvin in addition to AP didn't he?

A good receiving corp can make a bad QB look average (Ponder) and a good QB look great just like a bad set can make a great QB look average and an average QB look poor. I honestly think that is what we are seeing with Wilson and now with Jimmy I think we will see a significant improvement.
Percy was the #3 and slot guy. His main receivers were Sidney Rice and Bernard Berrian.
 

Tical21

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RichNhansom":1falx1ao said:
JimmyG":1falx1ao said:
RichNhansom":1falx1ao said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row..
During Favre's two-year stint with the Vikings, their defense ranked:
- 10th in points per game in 2009 (19.5/g)
- 18th in points per game in 2010 (21.9/g)

How is that "the best", let alone comparable to a historically-great Seattle defense?

Also, doesn't the fact that a garbage quarterback like Mark ****ing Sanchez was able to take a team to the championship game demonstrate how far a good supporting cast can carry a quarterback? (Just to be clear, Wilson is miles ahead of Sanchez... but when I read stuff like 'we wouldn't have made it the Super Bowl without Wilson" [when he had a 13.6 QBR and a 44.3 rating in the NFCCG] I can't help but think people are romanticizing a little bit.)


Saying we couldn't have made it to the super bowl is a valid comment. If they were saying we couldn't have won it without him then I agree but Wilson was vital in multiple of our wins and I cannot think of a single game he single handedly cost us. Even that NFCC Game against GB where his stats were bad it was him taking over that game even after an atrocious start, to win that game. Many QB's would not have been able to perform with our system, receivers, O-line and in this division as well as Wilson did.

As for the Vikings maybe I am remembering their run defense. Farve had Harvin in addition to AP didn't he?

A good receiving corp can make a bad QB look average (Ponder) and a good QB look great just like a bad set can make a great QB look average and an average QB look poor. I honestly think that is what we are seeing with Wilson and now with Jimmy I think we will see a significant improvement.
I might be wrong here, but I don't really see us being able to get Jimmy Graham involved in the traditional way. That just isn't our game. Russell doesn't exactly excel in throwing those seam routes that are making Graham famous. Those are read and dissect plays, and we don't do those well. I think when Russell scrambles is when he is going to look for Graham the most. He can throw it up to him and wait for him to get open and stuff like that. I'm actually afraid that Russell looks for him a bit too much and hangs him out to dry.
 

Anthony!

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RichNhansom":zd8yr1jd said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row. The thing your also ignoring is the schedule those teams played and the division strength during their run.

Wilson has an elite defense and elite RB in Lynch but poor O-line play and WR's and he is playing in the toughest division in football. 2013 the Patriots lost Gronk, Hernandez and Welker and still won 12 games and made the AFCCG. Sounds amazing right? Go look at the teams they beat to get their and Brady had several games with less than 50% completion rate. He did have Amendola and Edleman with Gronk intermittantly but the only reason they had the record and made the AFCCG was due to a powder puff schedule including only having to beat the Colts in Foxburough to get to the AFCCG,

It's one thing to have a poor receiving corp but to have poor protection on top of that would be more than enough to ruin a season for most QB's.


Great post spot on, be ready for the BS to come though. made up stuff, partial facts, etc.
 

Anthony!

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JimmyG":1lzkj39z said:
RichNhansom":1lzkj39z said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row..
During Favre's two-year stint with the Vikings, their defense ranked:
- 10th in points per game in 2009 (19.5/g)
- 18th in points per game in 2010 (21.9/g)

How is that "the best", let alone comparable to a historically-great Seattle defense?

Also, doesn't the fact that a garbage quarterback like Mark ****ing Sanchez was able to take a team to the championship game demonstrate how far a good supporting cast can carry a quarterback? (Just to be clear, Wilson is miles ahead of Sanchez... but when I read stuff like 'we wouldn't have made it the Super Bowl without Wilson" [when he had a 13.6 QBR and a 44.3 rating in the NFCCG] I can't help but think people are romanticizing a little bit.)


You are correct but as a norm that does not happen, history proves no matter how good your defense or Running game are you need a great QB to get to and win SBs. Over 80% of the teams that get to the SB have great or better QBs.

FYI Minny was 6th in YPG in 2009 and 6th in YPG in 2010 and they were 13th in PPG in 2010 not 18th they avg 20.8 not 21.9

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/team/ ... /year/2008

at any rate while not #1 they are very godo when you are top 10 in YPG and also top 15 in PPG that is a very good defense, and he still had AP and a much better Wr corps and a much better oline
 

Anthony!

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RichNhansom":3n9wkri1 said:
JimmyG":3n9wkri1 said:
RichNhansom":3n9wkri1 said:
Trical there are other examples of stacked teams that didn't win super bowls. The Vikings at one point had the best defense, O-line and AP and Brett Favre couldn't get it done. The Jets took Sanchez to the AFCCG two years in a row..
During Favre's two-year stint with the Vikings, their defense ranked:
- 10th in points per game in 2009 (19.5/g)
- 18th in points per game in 2010 (21.9/g)

How is that "the best", let alone comparable to a historically-great Seattle defense?

Also, doesn't the fact that a garbage quarterback like Mark ****ing Sanchez was able to take a team to the championship game demonstrate how far a good supporting cast can carry a quarterback? (Just to be clear, Wilson is miles ahead of Sanchez... but when I read stuff like 'we wouldn't have made it the Super Bowl without Wilson" [when he had a 13.6 QBR and a 44.3 rating in the NFCCG] I can't help but think people are romanticizing a little bit.)


Saying we couldn't have made it to the super bowl is a valid comment. If they were saying we couldn't have won it without him then I agree but Wilson was vital in multiple of our wins and I cannot think of a single game he single handedly cost us. Even that NFCC Game against GB where his stats were bad it was him taking over that game even after an atrocious start, to win that game. Many QB's would not have been able to perform with our system, receivers, O-line and in this division as well as Wilson did.

As for the Vikings maybe I am remembering their run defense. Farve had Harvin in addition to AP didn't he?

A good receiving corp can make a bad QB look average (Ponder) and a good QB look great just like a bad set can make a great QB look average and an average QB look poor. I honestly think that is what we are seeing with Wilson and now with Jimmy I think we will see a significant improvement.


You are correct some are very quick to give credit for Wilson to our Defense and run game, but forget how much he adds to the run game, and how little talent beyond Lynch he has a round him compared to other QBs.
 
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