Why Russell is a winner/leader and Cam Newton is not

[googoodan]

There are many factors that can go into this and very few people are able to answer without homer glasses. Luck's accuracy is questionable at times. RW's accuracy is amazing on the run, but can be frustrating from the pocket. Cam's accuracy on deep throws is much higher than on the short throws his offense relies on.
Clutchness- you can bring up Cam's last series just as easily as I could bring up RW's last series against the Cowboys. In reality very few quarterbacks in the NFL are *not* capable of clutch performances.
Take Jake Delhomme - I doubt his record 9 come from behind wins in 2003 (counting playoffs) will ever be broken. Clutch? Very. He has been described as the epitome of a leader. But would you really want him to be your starting quarterback?
Leadership is usually a perception. If a quarterback is shown yelling at his players, then wins, he "rallied the troops." If a quarterback is shown yelling at his players, then loses, he "whined and denied responsibility." Most good quarterbacks are an extension of their head coaches. RW seems to be the exception here: energetic coach, calm and collected QB.
Harbaugh: douche; Kaepernick: douche; Marvin Lewis: enough to get the job done; Andy Dalton: enough to get the job done; Ron Rivera: stoic on the sidelines; Cam Newton: stoic on the sidelines.

I couldn't agree with you more. The tracked variables are so hard to track due to home-town bias, systems, coaching, what the staff expects, etc. DelHomme is a great example (from the Panthers) where he did all of that, had the personality, showed the grit. Probably not the world's best QB, but they didn't ask him to be. In the case of the other vets - they find their niche and play to it. It's the young guys in question - Newton does not show the grit. He does not show the heart - nobody denies he probably has one, but translated to leadership traits (show it, do it, support it, embrace it) - he doesn't seem to be the guy. On the flip side, Russell does indeed show it - continuously. Kaepernick never has. Dalton is kind of plain (like DelHomme), Luck brings a legacy of expectations (similar to Manning) and sticks to it.

The staffs are a whole other story - I think Luck is bigger than his staff. Dalton, Kaep, Wilson, and Newton are not. I think Newton and Kaep aspire to be the big cheese, but their staffs will not allow it. So there is one of those variables - they cannot overcome their staff's desire to play a system and hierarchy that is not run through the QB.

I always said if Newton and Kaepernick could get their heads straight, they could be great QB's. They may be perfectly straight, but they are not "perceived" as square on their shoulders. Dalton, Luck, and Wilson do.

What grit does Newton not show?
Does it not show grit when he leads the team to a lead in the closing moments, only for the defense (or kicker) to fail?





Does he not show grit being down 21-7, and winning? Or doing this to win the division last season...

 

[SoulfishHawk]

He shows that he likes to smile and do a little dance when he gets a basic first down. Look at me everyone, I got a first down. It's about me, not the team.

 

[byau]

ESPN First Take 10/27 show they discuss Seahawks vs Panthers and Russell vs Cam starting at about 1hr10min

http://sports.espn.go.com/espnradio/pod ... id=6247496

Pretty good discussion, too bad they didn't talk about the Seahawks D. They only mention in passing that Cam's game was the below for dropbacks:

* fewest completions
* fewest yards
* fewest completion percentage

 

[ctrcat]

Fwiw, Cam's neighbor Michael Jordan is as pretentious an egomaniac that exists on this earth. Not totally comparing the two for a variety of reasons, but it did take MJ 7 years to win his first ring and no doubt the towel on the head is a direct ode to MJ.

 

[olyfan63]

This is an incredible post, but I must say your reasoning, while well rounded is flawed. Facial expressions and body language are tools for movie producers to convey emotion that is otherwise difficult to translate into a film (the same way a drunk guy in movies always has a 5 o'clock shadow and the girl throwing up is always pregnant) They actually have little bearing in reality.

I understand many people believe that perception is reality. When you see Cam's "scowl" on the sideline, you see pouting. Does that mean the reality is that Cam was pouting?
When Cam has the exact same facial expression at the end of a win, does one still perceive it to be pouting?

To illustrate my point, here are some pictures of Cam Newton on the sidelines. Two of these pictures are during wins. One is during a loss. Surely with his body language and scowl, you could easily determine whether the Panthers won or not. Which one of these were during a loss?
If you google, you lose.

Dude, I would love to accept your challenge, but 2 of the 3 pictures don't show up. Can you track them down in a way that shows here? To be fair, one picture from each is a pretty small sample size to work from, without much context about what was going on in that moment.

If in fact Cam has the same expression and body language, win or lose, then the team would pick it up after a while, and after some comeback wins like last November/December, the team attitude about what outsiders perceive as Cam "sulking" would be more like, "that's just the assassin getting ready, opponents look out!"
If Cam, on the field, leads the team to comeback after comeback, like late last year, all the chatter and BS simply goes away. He instantly becomes "expressive" and an "emotional" leader, and "you can tell by his expression how much he wants this", instead of "pouting" or "sulking".

In the spirit of fun and learning, I'll take the bait with the one that does show.



In this one, it looks to me like Cam is looking at the scoreboard, processing things in his mind about what he's going to do, feeling determined, and envisioning how he's going to make it happen. In short, constructive body language, mostly in the face and the eyes.

After writing that, I recalled some material about visual accessing cues, and looked it up. Cam is right-handed, by all accounts, so these apply to him, as written.

http://www.nlpu.com/Articles/artic14.htm
Eyes Up and Right: Dominant hemisphere visualization - i.e., constructed imagery and visual fantasy (Vc).

http://www.blifaloo.com/info/lies_eyes.php
Up and to the Left (from viewer's perspective; but Up and to the Right of subject)
Indicates: Visually Constructed Images (Vc)
If you asked someone to "Imagine a purple buffalo", this would be the direction their eyes moved in while thinking about the question as they "Visually Constructed" a purple buffalo in their mind.

So, in this one photo, Cam is likely constructing and visualizing in his mind what he and the offense are going to do, the plays they're going to make, how they're going to approach this next possession, given the game situation. I would label it as overall, constructive body language. What actually happened on the field after that? I have no idea. Do tell.

EDIT: Now the other 2 pics show up. Getty Images server caching, or whatever.

The first pic, Cam with helmet on, reveals nothing. No facial expression visible. For all we know, Cam is looking at pictures of opponent defensive formations, on a tablet or photo that is on the ground between his feet.

The third pic. Basically I would say the same about this pic as I said for the second one, except that he has his mouth open.

As you pointed out earlier, whether Cam does his part or not, it all becomes irrelevant if the defense allows a score or the kicker fails to convert after Cam leads a drive. So, 2 of these 3 pics convey Cam as focused and ready and scheming about how he'll attack the opponents, and the other pic conveys no meaningful information at all. During the Seahawks-Panthers game, the TV cameras repeatedly showed Cam on the sideline. The best part, as a Hawks fan, is that he was on the sideline, puzzling and scheming, instead of on the field doing damage.

 

[googoodan]

I mean what other qb does something like that for a simple first down

Let me rephrase the part you bolded for me since you're obviously so butthurt that your QB is a clownish inconsistent, idiot.

What QB does that ON EVERY SINGLE FIRST DOWN...

None. Why do you ask?

what a clown.

Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers might do it on a big play where their team really did something awesome, but they don't do it on every single first down (or when they don't even get a first down lmao) like your clown boy Newton.

Nor does Newton. However, since Newton's 3.5 seasons in the league have yielded more rushing first downs (161) than Tom Brady's 15 years (150) and Aaron Rodgers (130), you will obviously see Newton's celebration more often. .

And then you posted an image saying "OLD PEOPLE" which makes no sense with that image to begin with, which shows what kind of intelligence you have... as if being old would make someone not like a dummy like Newton... I'm 27 years old age has nothing to do with it, Newton is a noobie clown.

Speaking of intelligence....

Old people do not like "showboats" or "playing the position like that." I'm willing to bet that either an older relative or ESPN convinced you that having fun on a football field is a bad thing, because frankly, you do not seem smart enough to come up with your own feelings.
If I'm wrong, however, you can show I'm wrong by explaining exactly why pointing down the field is such a detriment to society using a fact-based analysis, void of opinion.

 

[bigtrain21]

googoodan,

Do you like when he does that celebration after a first down? I like Cam Newton, but the way he does that is incredibly annoying. In a perfect world wouldn't you rather he just run back to the huddle?

 

[googoodan]

googoodan,

Do you like when he does that celebration after a first down? I like Cam Newton, but the way he does that is incredibly annoying. In a perfect world wouldn't you rather he just run back to the huddle?

The celebration means nothing. Watching fans of the World Champions spazz about "nothing" is incredibly annoying, especially when they use a snapshot to describe an entire life.

If you've ever been to a live football game, you'll see that 90% of the time, the QB does not join the huddle right away. He stays back to allow personnel changes and avoid a 12 man in the huddle flag. It makes no difference if he points or walks toward the huddle.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Ding Ding. That's the point I was trying to make earlier. He's a QB, needs to lead by example. Why would the rest of the team respect that crap and/or want to play hard for a show off like that???

 

[googoodan]

This is an incredible post, but I must say your reasoning, while well rounded is flawed. Facial expressions and body language are tools for movie producers to convey emotion that is otherwise difficult to translate into a film (the same way a drunk guy in movies always has a 5 o'clock shadow and the girl throwing up is always pregnant) They actually have little bearing in reality.

I understand many people believe that perception is reality. When you see Cam's "scowl" on the sideline, you see pouting. Does that mean the reality is that Cam was pouting?
When Cam has the exact same facial expression at the end of a win, does one still perceive it to be pouting?

To illustrate my point, here are some pictures of Cam Newton on the sidelines. Two of these pictures are during wins. One is during a loss. Surely with his body language and scowl, you could easily determine whether the Panthers won or not. Which one of these were during a loss?
If you google, you lose.

Dude, I would love to accept your challenge, but 2 of the 3 pictures don't show up. Can you track them down in a way that shows here? To be fair, one picture from each is a pretty small sample size to work from, without much context about what was going on in that moment.

If in fact Cam has the same expression and body language, win or lose, then the team would pick it up after a while, and after some comeback wins like last November/December, the team attitude about what outsiders perceive as Cam "sulking" would be more like, "that's just the assassin getting ready, opponents look out!"
If Cam, on the field, leads the team to comeback after comeback, like late last year, all the chatter and BS simply goes away. He instantly becomes "expressive" and an "emotional" leader, and "you can tell by his expression how much he wants this", instead of "pouting" or "sulking".

In the spirit of fun and learning, I'll take the bait with the one that does show.



In this one, it looks to me like Cam is looking at the scoreboard, processing things in his mind about what he's going to do, feeling determined, and envisioning how he's going to make it happen. In short, constructive body language, mostly in the face and the eyes.

After writing that, I recalled some material about visual accessing cues, and looked it up. Cam is right-handed, by all accounts, so these apply to him, as written.

http://www.nlpu.com/Articles/artic14.htm
Eyes Up and Right: Dominant hemisphere visualization - i.e., constructed imagery and visual fantasy (Vc).

http://www.blifaloo.com/info/lies_eyes.php
Up and to the Left (from viewer's perspective; but Up and to the Right of subject)
Indicates: Visually Constructed Images (Vc)
If you asked someone to "Imagine a purple buffalo", this would be the direction their eyes moved in while thinking about the question as they "Visually Constructed" a purple buffalo in their mind.

So, in this one photo, Cam is likely constructing and visualizing in his mind what he and the offense are going to do, the plays they're going to make, how they're going to approach this next possession, given the game situation. I would label it as overall, constructive body language. What actually happened on the field after that? I have no idea. Do tell.

EDIT: Now the other 2 pics show up. Getty Images server caching, or whatever.

The first pic, Cam with helmet on, reveals nothing. No facial expression visible. For all we know, Cam is looking at pictures of opponent defensive formations, on a tablet or photo that is on the ground between his feet.

The third pic. Basically I would say the same about this pic as I said for the second one, except that he has his mouth open.

As you pointed out earlier, whether Cam does his part or not, it all becomes irrelevant if the defense allows a score or the kicker fails to convert after Cam leads a drive. So, 2 of these 3 pics convey Cam as focused and ready and scheming about how he'll attack the opponents, and the other pic conveys no meaningful information at all. During the Seahawks-Panthers game, the TV cameras repeatedly showed Cam on the sideline. The best part, as a Hawks fan, is that he was on the sideline, puzzling and scheming, instead of on the field doing damage.

I apologize; I missed this reply.
While you used an actual thought process to interpret focus and determination, most people (namely ESPN addicts) will see those same pictures and interpret pouting or sulking. The intent of my post becomes clear: one's interpretation on a single snapshot is not an accurate depiction of another person's body of work.
I appreciate the fact that you showed your thought process and gave an informational answer. If you were interested, all three photographs were taken in victories. The one with his helmet on was when he was getting his ankle taped after a Saints' bounty hit. He missed a few plays, then returned to the field and threw a touchdown pass two plays later. The other two, I don't remember exactly. But actually all three pictures were from games the Panthers won.

The broadcast teams love to show Cam on the sideline. It gives them something to sensationalize. That's also the reason you can't go a snap without seeing Harbaugh's exaggerated reactions, or why every single Tom Brady high-five (or non high-five) has to be broadcast.

 

[DeSeahawk]

Cam's WRs do not bang his wife.

Boy that Avatar is scarrrrrrry. Wish you had Wilson, don't you? Ha ha ha ha

No, but I would kill to have your offensive line.

Man, its been a while since anyone said that to Seattle !

 

[253hawk]

No showy "look at me" quarterback (other than Joe Namath, if you really want to reach) has ever won a Super Bowl. Think about that for a moment.

Thought this was interesting; I think it was only through week 6.

 

[googoodan]

No showy "look at me" quarterback (other than Joe Namath, if you really want to reach) has ever won a Super Bowl. Think about that for a moment.

Thought this was interesting; I think it was only through week 6.

I'm sure Brett Favre's sext messages disagree.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Brett Favre was a Hall of Famer, winning QB. Cam is a guy w/a ton of potential who has won nothing. Me Me Me Me Me, that's where his focus is.

 

[nsport]

GooGoo - his is not gritty. Your first example of Jake Delhomme was gritty. Liked that dude. I was living in Dallas at the time and every sports talk guy in that city wanted to steal that guy from you and put him on the Cowboys to lead them to multiple Superb Owls. That's a guy that people like, respected, did what he was expected to do, and so forth. He was not the best athlete, but he had the "it" factor when he was in his prime. Cam is impressive in size, ability, etc. but I sure as hell wouldn't want him on my team unless he could prove that his mental side and image side was cleaned up into the epitome of a leader. The EXACT same thing is happening with Colin Kaepernick. I think the same is true for big boy Cutler up on Chicago. Total mental headcases. I saw Cam's XBOX promos - he came across as a complete silly head case that cared more about his Madden ratings and his exclusive gaming room than he did about cracking the books. He is simply not the vision of leader I would ever want on my team.

 

[seabowl]

End of the day on this discussion is that last years Hawk team and Cats team had many similarities. Good running game, decent WR's, bad OL's, good TE's and very good to great D's. The difference was the QB's period. Cam is a me player that quite frankly has a fantastic arm but with not great touch and not the best accuracy. He runs great but not like Russell in that Russell IMO is much more elusive. Russell on the other hand has a very good arm (not as powerful as Cam's), good to very good accuracy and here's the big one, unreal mental capacity to understand situations as to when to throw, run, and LEAD A TEAM when they are down. When the Cats went down the other day all I saw from Cam was sulking, depression and most of all not bringing the O together to say "we can do this". When the Hawks were down in the game they went to a shot of Russell on the sideline clapping and getting his O pumped to score points. There is no die in that guy.

That's the difference. Period!!!!!!

 

[TwilightError]

Newton's smile and dance is annoying and selfish. Once he did a superman celebration after a rushed touchdown in the cargabe time in a blowout loss... That is why it is very satisfying to see him lose. It's kinda similar than with Jim Harbaugh. One of the most pleasant things in the world is to watch that arrogant face melt after he has lost.

I would not read too much to it though. Cam might annoy some teammates too in terms of leadership, but not necessarily. He can still have the grittiness, even if it externally appears adolescent and lacking maturity. He sure seems to be enjoying his game, and that is a good example.

 

[googoodan]

Brett Favre was a Hall of Famer, winning QB. Cam is a guy w/a ton of potential who has won nothing. Me Me Me Me Me, that's where his focus is.

...and you know his focus, how?
Your interpretation? Your gut instinct? The feeling you get when you see him?

Those sound like "you" problems, not "Cam" problems.

Yes, Nolan Nawrocki's scouting report got a lot of attention (where much of the "me first" schtick originates). But at what point has it ever been called accurate? He gives every black QB the same scouting report. That is a "Nolan Nawrocki" problem, not a "Cam" problem.

 

[googoodan]

End of the day on this discussion is that last years Hawk team and Cats team had many similarities. Good running game, decent WR's, bad OL's, good TE's and very good to great D's. The difference was the QB's period. Cam is a me player that quite frankly has a fantastic arm but with not great touch and not the best accuracy. He runs great but not like Russell in that Russell IMO is much more elusive. Russell on the other hand has a very good arm (not as powerful as Cam's), good to very good accuracy and here's the big one, unreal mental capacity to understand situations as to when to throw, run, and LEAD A TEAM when they are down. When the Cats went down the other day all I saw from Cam was sulking, depression and most of all not bringing the O together to say "we can do this". When the Hawks were down in the game they went to a shot of Russell on the sideline clapping and getting his O pumped to score points. There is no die in that guy.

That's the difference. Period!!!!!!

No, the difference is Pete Carrol and Ron Rivera.

Watching Carroll just give an interview makes me want to dress up in Kermit the Frog green and Wolf Grey and chase Kaepernick around.


Rivera, on the other hand, has his own memes among Panthers fans.
http://memegenerator.net/Stoic-Ron

 

[RunTheBall]

Brett Favre was a Hall of Famer, winning QB. Cam is a guy w/a ton of potential who has won nothing. Me Me Me Me Me, that's where his focus is.

...and you know his focus, how?
Your interpretation? Your gut instinct? The feeling you get when you see him?

Those sound like "you" problems, not "Cam" problems.

Yes, Nolan Nawrocki's scouting report got a lot of attention (where much of the "me first" schtick originates). But at what point has it ever been called accurate? He gives every black QB the same scouting report. That is a "Nolan Nawrocki" problem, not a "Cam" problem.

I hope you sign Cam to a long-term deal. He will never amount to anything.