Why Russell is a winner/leader and Cam Newton is not

[Hawks46]

When we scored that TD, you could see it totally deflated that offense. The body language of the entire offense was flat when they came out, and I bet that stems from their QB. He has a history of pouting, and you could see it after that first Irvin sack. It was pretty awesome; Irvin took a little piece of Cam's soul by that second sack.

 

[minormillikin]

Both QBs, Russ and Cam are big into getting out their own brand. And that's cool. Hopefully it means they can be profitable in ways that won't affect the salary cap.

The main difference is that Cam seems to be selling a brand that's more geared toward entertaining kids, while Russ seems more interested in attracting adults.

Cam=Hot Wheels
Russ=Mercedes

 

[Sugar baby]

I like Wilson quite a bit.As a person I enjoy his quotes and the way he carries himself.

Cam is good too. Even though I felt he was over paid. All QBs are over paid.

 

[olyfan63]

Honestly, isn't "I knew we would win because of Cam's body language" just as ignorant as "I can tell he's guilty by looking at him"?
Speaking of Cam's results; go back and analyze the scores from the time we drafted Cam in 2011. Look at how many times he left the field with the lead, only for the defense to blow the game. You will be amazed. (Yesterday not included; he had nearly a full minute)

The "wow he can't get it done in crunch time" mentality is based on ESPN sensationalism, not reality.

I was *MASSIVELY ENJOYING* Cam's body language on the sideline camera shots, mostly because he was on the SIDELINE, not on the field doing damage to the Seahawk defense.

There are few things more enjoyable than sideline shots of elite QBs scowling, with their team trailing the Seahawks. My only regret is that we only got a brief few minutes of Tom Brady scowl during the Seahawks 24-23 win back in 2012. (Sherman's "U Mad Bro?" pic made up for a lot, though)

Cam's sideline scowl is up there with Rogers and Peyton, and far surpasses the scowls of Brees.

When things are going badly for Wilson or Brees, both have a non-sulking, more cerebral sideline disposition, where it looks like they are playing the next series in their head, when they are not talking with coaches or reviewing things with other offensive players.,

Maybe we need a separate thread for most enjoyable sideline scowl from opposing QBs when they are getting beaten by the Seahawks. (I recall Sean Payton having an evil scowl, but it's QB's not coaches, at issue here. A coaches thread could work too)

I think it's amusing we are picking on Cam for his sideline scowl. At the same time, it's probably fair game from a growth standpoint, because if Cam is putting that much emotional energy into scowling, it's probably reducing/blocking his ability to think constructively and excitedly and use his excitement and imagination to mentally look forward to the next series and come up with creative ideas for attacking the defense. So, a sulking Cam is a beautiful Cam, to the opponents.

Contrast that with Wilson, who always seems to stay positive and constructive, even when down 20 to Tampa, or Atlanta, or Houston, or down 10 to SF in NFCCG, and has the team totally buying in and supporting him, and inspires that extra bit of belief and effort from the rest of the team. It affects the defense too; they know, if they can hold the other team and get the ball back with a chance, Russell can make it happen.

Honestly, Russell had a crappy game, for Russell, against the Panthers. Several missed passes, a pick, just not his best game, I could even slightly tell by his body language, but he stayed positive and focused, and was ready to go to work when crunch time came.

Brady and Rogers both have excellent dead-fish-under-my-chair sideline scowls, but the problem is, you get the feeling it's more of an assassin's scowl, that their emotions and energy is 100% into plotting how to dismember the opposing defense at their next opportunity.

Is the sulking body language making a difference these days? Hard to say; Cam had 4 4th quarter comeback wins last year in November and December 2013; that's why Carolina was an elite team in 2013, Cam's difference-making play. So far he has 2 4QCB's this year. The first 2 years of his career, he was 1 for 12 in comeback situations, about the worst in the league. Clearly he's grown as a QB since then.

Anyway, sure, Cam has some room to grow here, but he's been fairly clutch since late 2013.

 

[olyfan63]

Has your offensive line ever been so bad that you had to take your leading receiver and biggest downfield threat, and put him in pass protection the entire game? (Olsen)

No?

Ok.

Funny, we were wondering, before game time, how we'd cover Olsen in this game. By the end of the game, announcers were crediting Seattle with a briliant scheme for holding Olsen to miniscule production in this game.

Now we find out it was because Olsen was blocking all the time, just like we've had to do with Zach Miller.
It made a good story, anyway, shutting down Olsen.

Or did our defense really just have an incredible game shutting Olsen down?

 

[Tokadub]

I mean what other qb does something like that for a simple first down

Let me rephrase the part you bolded for me since you're obviously so butthurt that your QB is a clownish inconsistent, idiot.

What QB does that ON EVERY SINGLE FIRST DOWN... what a clown.

Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers might do it on a big play where their team really did something awesome, but they don't do it on every single first down (or when they don't even get a first down lmao) like your clown boy Newton.

And then you posted an image saying "OLD PEOPLE" which makes no sense with that image to begin with, which shows what kind of intelligence you have... as if being old would make someone not like a dummy like Newton... I'm 27 years old age has nothing to do with it, Newton is a noobie clown.

 

[NINEster]

My favorite Cam moment was that Thursday night game in 2012 against the Giants when he got a late TD rush while still down a ton and did the Superman thing with the cheesy smile.

That was better for me than the Lamarr Houston sack celebration injury.

 

[googoodan]

OMG Everybody panic! A young adult is having fun on a football field! He *gasp* POINTED! DOWN! THE! FIELD! That kind of stuff can destroy nations and turn orphans into pillars of salt. Please stop pointing, Cam!

Learn from a Super Bowl MVP like Discount Double Check

And you would give your left nut for Discount Double Check. Meow meow kitty

but but he celebrates!

oh wait... he's white.

Nope. Rodgers is douchey too.

Let me guess, you were pissed last year when Kaep did the Superman. That was douche on douche crime.

No, I actually laughed when Kaep shook his head and pretended to button his shirt back up. QBs mocking other QBs is a little weird, but I saw nothing wrong with it.

 

[googoodan]

When we scored that TD, you could see it totally deflated that offense. The body language of the entire offense was flat when they came out, and I bet that stems from their QB. He has a history of pouting, and you could see it after that first Irvin sack. It was pretty awesome; Irvin took a little piece of Cam's soul by that second sack.

I really, really want to see Russell Wilson's blindside being protected by Byron Bell for four quarters. Let's see how spry and energetic he looks with a minute left in the game.

.... I want to see RW's enthusiasm when he gets the call from his OC, in the most obvious passing situation that has ever existed in the NFL, to run a play action pass.

 

[SouthSoundHawk]

When we scored that TD, you could see it totally deflated that offense. The body language of the entire offense was flat when they came out, and I bet that stems from their QB. He has a history of pouting, and you could see it after that first Irvin sack. It was pretty awesome; Irvin took a little piece of Cam's soul by that second sack.

I really, really want to see Russell Wilson's blindside being protected by Byron Bell for four quarters. Let's see how spry and energetic he looks with a minute left in the game.

.... I want to see RW's enthusiasm when he gets the call from his OC, in the most obvious passing situation that has ever existed in the NFL, to run a play action pass.

This dude obviously doesn't watch Seattle games based on what I've seen in this thread.

Nor has he heard of Bevell.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

When we scored that TD, you could see it totally deflated that offense. The body language of the entire offense was flat when they came out, and I bet that stems from their QB. He has a history of pouting, and you could see it after that first Irvin sack. It was pretty awesome; Irvin took a little piece of Cam's soul by that second sack.

I really, really want to see Russell Wilson's blindside being protected by Byron Bell for four quarters. Let's see how spry and energetic he looks with a minute left in the game.

.... I want to see RW's enthusiasm when he gets the call from his OC, in the most obvious passing situation that has ever existed in the NFL, to run a play action pass.

Russell has arguably the worst pass protection in the league, he's constantly running for his life and taking hits.........and if you've spend any longer than five minutes on this forum you'd see the dozens of fire Bevell threads complaining about play calling.

Cam is a great talent, but the dude exudes defeatist attitude...........in his body language on the field, and in his post game pressers. That energy is contagious, and I think lends itself to the overall negative energy on the Panthers.

 

[googoodan]

Honestly, isn't "I knew we would win because of Cam's body language" just as ignorant as "I can tell he's guilty by looking at him"?
Speaking of Cam's results; go back and analyze the scores from the time we drafted Cam in 2011. Look at how many times he left the field with the lead, only for the defense to blow the game. You will be amazed. (Yesterday not included; he had nearly a full minute)

The "wow he can't get it done in crunch time" mentality is based on ESPN sensationalism, not reality.

I was *MASSIVELY ENJOYING* Cam's body language on the sideline camera shots, mostly because he was on the SIDELINE, not on the field doing damage to the Seahawk defense.

There are few things more enjoyable than sideline shots of elite QBs scowling, with their team trailing the Seahawks. My only regret is that we only got a brief few minutes of Tom Brady scowl during the Seahawks 24-23 win back in 2012. (Sherman's "U Mad Bro?" pic made up for a lot, though)

Cam's sideline scowl is up there with Rogers and Peyton, and far surpasses the scowls of Brees.

When things are going badly for Wilson or Brees, both have a non-sulking, more cerebral sideline disposition, where it looks like they are playing the next series in their head, when they are not talking with coaches or reviewing things with other offensive players.,

Maybe we need a separate thread for most enjoyable sideline scowl from opposing QBs when they are getting beaten by the Seahawks. (I recall Sean Payton having an evil scowl, but it's QB's not coaches, at issue here. A coaches thread could work too)

I think it's amusing we are picking on Cam for his sideline scowl. At the same time, it's probably fair game from a growth standpoint, because if Cam is putting that much emotional energy into scowling, it's probably reducing/blocking his ability to think constructively and excitedly and use his excitement and imagination to mentally look forward to the next series and come up with creative ideas for attacking the defense. So, a sulking Cam is a beautiful Cam, to the opponents.

Contrast that with Wilson, who always seems to stay positive and constructive, even when down 20 to Tampa, or Atlanta, or Houston, or down 10 to SF in NFCCG, and has the team totally buying in and supporting him, and inspires that extra bit of belief and effort from the rest of the team. It affects the defense too; they know, if they can hold the other team and get the ball back with a chance, Russell can make it happen.

Honestly, Russell had a crappy game, for Russell, against the Panthers. Several missed passes, a pick, just not his best game, I could even slightly tell by his body language, but he stayed positive and focused, and was ready to go to work when crunch time came.

Brady and Rogers both have excellent dead-fish-under-my-chair sideline scowls, but the problem is, you get the feeling it's more of an assassin's scowl, that their emotions and energy is 100% into plotting how to dismember the opposing defense at their next opportunity.

Is the sulking body language making a difference these days? Hard to say; Cam had 4 4th quarter comeback wins last year in November and December 2013; that's why Carolina was an elite team in 2013, Cam's difference-making play. So far he has 2 4QCB's this year. The first 2 years of his career, he was 1 for 12 in comeback situations, about the worst in the league. Clearly he's grown as a QB since then.

Anyway, sure, Cam has some room to grow here, but he's been fairly clutch since late 2013.

This is an incredible post, but I must say your reasoning, while well rounded is flawed. Facial expressions and body language are tools for movie producers to convey emotion that is otherwise difficult to translate into a film (the same way a drunk guy in movies always has a 5 o'clock shadow and the girl throwing up is always pregnant) They actually have little bearing in reality.

I understand many people believe that perception is reality. When you see Cam's "scowl" on the sideline, you see pouting. Does that mean the reality is that Cam was pouting?
When Cam has the exact same facial expression at the end of a win, does one still perceive it to be pouting?

To illustrate my point, here are some pictures of Cam Newton on the sidelines. Two of these pictures are during wins. One is during a loss. Surely with his body language and scowl, you could easily determine whether the Panthers won or not. Which one of these were during a loss?
If you google, you lose.

 

[googoodan]

Has your offensive line ever been so bad that you had to take your leading receiver and biggest downfield threat, and put him in pass protection the entire game? (Olsen)

No?

Ok.

Funny, we were wondering, before game time, how we'd cover Olsen in this game. By the end of the game, announcers were crediting Seattle with a briliant scheme for holding Olsen to miniscule production in this game.

Now we find out it was because Olsen was blocking all the time, just like we've had to do with Zach Miller.
It made a good story, anyway, shutting down Olsen.

Or did our defense really just have an incredible game shutting Olsen down?

I can't say for sure without going back and watching every single snap. I know Olsen was in pass protection for a minimum of half the snaps.
The last series, Olsen ran routes, but Byron Bell was swatting at mosquitoes instead of blocking anything.

 

[googoodan]

When we scored that TD, you could see it totally deflated that offense. The body language of the entire offense was flat when they came out, and I bet that stems from their QB. He has a history of pouting, and you could see it after that first Irvin sack. It was pretty awesome; Irvin took a little piece of Cam's soul by that second sack.

I really, really want to see Russell Wilson's blindside being protected by Byron Bell for four quarters. Let's see how spry and energetic he looks with a minute left in the game.

.... I want to see RW's enthusiasm when he gets the call from his OC, in the most obvious passing situation that has ever existed in the NFL, to run a play action pass.

Russell has arguably the worst pass protection in the league, he's constantly running for his life and taking hits.........and if you've spend any longer than five minutes on this forum you'd see the dozens of fire Bevell threads complaining about play calling.

Cam is a great talent, but the dude exudes defeatist attitude...........in his body language on the field, and in his post game pressers. That energy is contagious, and I think lends itself to the overall negative energy on the Panthers.

Every team has fans calling for their OC to be fired, save for the Packers and Colts.

What part of "Cam has taken more than twice the hits of any other QB" (a link I posted previously in this thread) makes you believe Russell's pass protection is weaker?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

When we scored that TD, you could see it totally deflated that offense. The body language of the entire offense was flat when they came out, and I bet that stems from their QB. He has a history of pouting, and you could see it after that first Irvin sack. It was pretty awesome; Irvin took a little piece of Cam's soul by that second sack.

I really, really want to see Russell Wilson's blindside being protected by Byron Bell for four quarters. Let's see how spry and energetic he looks with a minute left in the game.

.... I want to see RW's enthusiasm when he gets the call from his OC, in the most obvious passing situation that has ever existed in the NFL, to run a play action pass.

Russell has arguably the worst pass protection in the league, he's constantly running for his life and taking hits.........and if you've spend any longer than five minutes on this forum you'd see the dozens of fire Bevell threads complaining about play calling.

Cam is a great talent, but the dude exudes defeatist attitude...........in his body language on the field, and in his post game pressers. That energy is contagious, and I think lends itself to the overall negative energy on the Panthers.

Every team has fans calling for their OC to be fired, save for the Packers and Colts.

What part of "Cam has taken more than twice the hits of any other QB" (a link I posted previously in this thread) makes you believe Russell's pass protection is weaker?

Taking hits isn't all on the line, Cam holds the ball WAY longer than Russell. Russell knows when to throw it away, which helps keep him upright.

Cam's trying to make plays, which means he takes more hits. Not saying you guys have an awesome line, but if it's worse, it's not by much. Hawk's O-line is horrendous at pass protection.

 

[nsport]

Couldn't help but chime in when the young QB comparisons started to happen. Everything is subjective - no doubt there's a bunch of good young QB's in the league.

I'd probably put 5 down as the top young QB's - leaving out RGIII, as he has proven literally nothing in this league to date IMHO.

- Newton
- Kaepernick
- Wilson
- Luck
- Dalton

If you track 3 main traits (my perception only) - Leadership, Physical (arm, size, speed, accuracy), and ability to deliver in the clutch - I think the top two guys have to be Luck and Wilson. Physically, I don't think anyone can deny that Kaepernick is near the top with Newton #2. Obviously Wilson due to size is lower physically (but he is pretty quick, good armed, and accurate). But out of all those guys, wouldn't Wilson be #1 in leadership? Wouldn't he be ranked up there in clutchness? Didn't say much about Dalton, but the guy is pretty damn good - kind of a poor man's franchise QB - I think he has everything you want - but if anything probably missing some swagger.

Newton on the other hand (back to the thread OP), great physical attributes but his clutchiness and leadership seem really off to me. Almost like he is still searching for that identity and cannot wrangle it in. Sometimes he looks brilliant, other times I get the feeling he'd rather be anywhere but on the football field.

EDIT - I didn't track intelligence because I think that's a hard one to gauge based on the offensive systems.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

..............
EDIT - I didn't track intelligence because I think that's a hard one to gauge based on the offensive systems.

Kaep appreciates this.

 

[googoodan]

Couldn't help but chime in when the young QB comparisons started to happen. Everything is subjective - no doubt there's a bunch of good young QB's in the league.

I'd probably put 5 down as the top young QB's - leaving out RGIII, as he has proven literally nothing in this league to date IMHO.

- Newton
- Kaepernick
- Wilson
- Luck
- Dalton

If you track 3 main traits (my perception only) - Leadership, Physical (arm, size, speed, accuracy), and ability to deliver in the clutch - I think the top two guys have to be Luck and Wilson. Physically, I don't think anyone can deny that Kaepernick is near the top with Newton #2. Obviously Wilson due to size is lower physically (but he is pretty quick, good armed, and accurate). But out of all those guys, wouldn't Wilson be #1 in leadership? Wouldn't he be ranked up there in clutchness? Didn't say much about Dalton, but the guy is pretty damn good - kind of a poor man's franchise QB - I think he has everything you want - but if anything probably missing some swagger.

Newton on the other hand (back to the thread OP), great physical attributes but his clutchiness and leadership seem really off to me. Almost like he is still searching for that identity and cannot wrangle it in. Sometimes he looks brilliant, other times I get the feeling he'd rather be anywhere but on the football field.

EDIT - I didn't track intelligence because I think that's a hard one to gauge based on the offensive systems.

There are many factors that can go into this and very few people are able to answer without homer glasses. Luck's accuracy is questionable at times. RW's accuracy is amazing on the run, but can be frustrating from the pocket. Cam's accuracy on deep throws is much higher than on the short throws his offense relies on.
Clutchness- you can bring up Cam's last series just as easily as I could bring up RW's last series against the Cowboys. In reality very few quarterbacks in the NFL are *not* capable of clutch performances.
Take Jake Delhomme - I doubt his record 9 come from behind wins in 2003 (counting playoffs) will ever be broken. Clutch? Very. He has been described as the epitome of a leader. But would you really want him to be your starting quarterback?
Leadership is usually a perception. If a quarterback is shown yelling at his players, then wins, he "rallied the troops." If a quarterback is shown yelling at his players, then loses, he "whined and denied responsibility." Most good quarterbacks are an extension of their head coaches. RW seems to be the exception here: energetic coach, calm and collected QB.
Harbaugh: douche; Kaepernick: douche; Marvin Lewis: enough to get the job done; Andy Dalton: enough to get the job done; Ron Rivera: stoic on the sidelines; Cam Newton: stoic on the sidelines.

 

[nsport]

There are many factors that can go into this and very few people are able to answer without homer glasses. Luck's accuracy is questionable at times. RW's accuracy is amazing on the run, but can be frustrating from the pocket. Cam's accuracy on deep throws is much higher than on the short throws his offense relies on.
Clutchness- you can bring up Cam's last series just as easily as I could bring up RW's last series against the Cowboys. In reality very few quarterbacks in the NFL are *not* capable of clutch performances.
Take Jake Delhomme - I doubt his record 9 come from behind wins in 2003 (counting playoffs) will ever be broken. Clutch? Very. He has been described as the epitome of a leader. But would you really want him to be your starting quarterback?
Leadership is usually a perception. If a quarterback is shown yelling at his players, then wins, he "rallied the troops." If a quarterback is shown yelling at his players, then loses, he "whined and denied responsibility." Most good quarterbacks are an extension of their head coaches. RW seems to be the exception here: energetic coach, calm and collected QB.
Harbaugh: douche; Kaepernick: douche; Marvin Lewis: enough to get the job done; Andy Dalton: enough to get the job done; Ron Rivera: stoic on the sidelines; Cam Newton: stoic on the sidelines.

I couldn't agree with you more. The tracked variables are so hard to track due to home-town bias, systems, coaching, what the staff expects, etc. DelHomme is a great example (from the Panthers) where he did all of that, had the personality, showed the grit. Probably not the world's best QB, but they didn't ask him to be. In the case of the other vets - they find their niche and play to it. It's the young guys in question - Newton does not show the grit. He does not show the heart - nobody denies he probably has one, but translated to leadership traits (show it, do it, support it, embrace it) - he doesn't seem to be the guy. On the flip side, Russell does indeed show it - continuously. Kaepernick never has. Dalton is kind of plain (like DelHomme), Luck brings a legacy of expectations (similar to Manning) and sticks to it.

The staffs are a whole other story - I think Luck is bigger than his staff. Dalton, Kaep, Wilson, and Newton are not. I think Newton and Kaep aspire to be the big cheese, but their staffs will not allow it. So there is one of those variables - they cannot overcome their staff's desire to play a system and hierarchy that is not run through the QB.

I always said if Newton and Kaepernick could get their heads straight, they could be great QB's. They may be perfectly straight, but they are not "perceived" as square on their shoulders. Dalton, Luck, and Wilson do.

 

[googoodan]

My favorite Cam moment was that Thursday night game in 2012 against the Giants when he got a late TD rush while still down a ton and did the Superman thing with the cheesy smile.

That was better for me than the Lamarr Houston sack celebration injury.

that's not exactly how it happened, but good job