What would it take for Wilson to win MVP?

[hawk45]

Mahomes would excell in any system.

Not sure the same could be said about Russell.

And yes, Mahomes on our team would make us better. And make Mahomes look worse.

But regardless, it is what it is. Mahomes playing better.

Mahomes would excel in any system, Russell wouldn't? I question that assertion.

Mahomes is lighting it up and I have nothing bad to say about him, but making that kind of statement when he's been playing under Reid with the OL and weapons he's had puzzles me.

Now, I will say, Mahomes at this point in his career is better than Wilson was from the pocket. But then Wilson was ripping off 40 yard runs regularly in his first few years, so there is that.

 

[justafan]

Russ didn't do it because he could. He did it because he had to.

And to say anyone has to do that in order to "PROVE" themselves is ridiculous. Its historic because NO ONE WANTS TO DO IT THAT WAY.

Ya a lot of QBs have had to carry the teams the whole season and it never ends well.

I understand your points on Mahones. He is a great player. Maybe the best. We dont need to tear down people to build up what we have.

 

[McGruff]

As far ad comparing the situation to Luck or RG3 or Cam, it holds no water.

None of those guys were clearly better than Wilson. In fact, in nearly every way it was clear at the time that they were not.

With Mahomes it is pretty easy to demonstrate that up to this point (which is all we have, BTW) he is clearly better than Russ and every other QB in the league.

 

[erik2690]

When they provide them we can discuss but they have not. I have.

What facts have you provided?

Reading its fundamental but since that seems to be a problem, ONLY PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY TO ACCOUNT FOR OVER 80% OF HIS TEAMS IFFENSIVE YARDS AND IVER 95% OF HIS TEAMS OFFENSUVE TDS. Fyi had a winning record, was the leading rusher, 28th ranked oline. Those are called facts.

So in 2017 Russ should've been MVP.

Cool. Okay.

What year is it?

Okay now you're confusing me. You just made a long post that was almost all about Mahomes LAST YEAR. So you're gonna have to pick a lane, are we sticking to this year or not?

 

[John63]

As far ad comparing the situation to Luck or RG3 or Cam, it holds no water.

None of those guys were clearly better than Wilson. In fact, in nearly every way it was clear at the time that they were not.

With Mahomes it is pretty easy to demonstrate that up to this point (which is all we have, BTW) he is clearly better than Russ and every other QB in the league.

Well the problem is the only way to prove it is to have them switch teams. I believe you put Wilson in KC he is lighting it up even more than Mahomes and if you put Mahomes on Seattle he would struggle. So you can believe what you want and so can I. However it is far easier to see a guy who puts up MVP numbers with little around him in a run first offense doing well in a pass first offense with top 3 talent then a guy with top 3 talent doing well with little around him.

 

[McGruff]

What facts have you provided?

Reading its fundamental but since that seems to be a problem, ONLY PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY TO ACCOUNT FOR OVER 80% OF HIS TEAMS IFFENSIVE YARDS AND IVER 95% OF HIS TEAMS OFFENSUVE TDS. Fyi had a winning record, was the leading rusher, 28th ranked oline. Those are called facts.

So in 2017 Russ should've been MVP.

Cool. Okay.

What year is it?

Okay now you're confusing me. You just made a long post that was almost all about Mahomes LAST YEAR. So you're gonna have to pick a lane, are we sticking to this year or not?

You guys are so narrow you manage to be obtuse at the same time. It really is a marvel.

His play from last year had continue into this year. Hes not regressing as many expected. That was the point.

 

[McGruff]

As far ad comparing the situation to Luck or RG3 or Cam, it holds no water.

None of those guys were clearly better than Wilson. In fact, in nearly every way it was clear at the time that they were not.

With Mahomes it is pretty easy to demonstrate that up to this point (which is all we have, BTW) he is clearly better than Russ and every other QB in the league.

Well the problem is the only way to prove it is to have them switch teams. I believe you put Wilson in KC he is lighting it up even more than Mahomes and if you put Mahomes on Seattle he would struggle. So you can believe what you want and so can I. However it is far easier to see a guy who puts up MVP numbers with little around him in a run first offense doing well in a pass first offense with top 3 talent then a guy with top 3 talent doing well with little around him.

It must be awesome to have one of those machines that transports you into alternative realities that dont actually exist.

How much does one of those run you?

 

[John63]

Reading its fundamental but since that seems to be a problem, ONLY PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY TO ACCOUNT FOR OVER 80% OF HIS TEAMS IFFENSIVE YARDS AND IVER 95% OF HIS TEAMS OFFENSUVE TDS. Fyi had a winning record, was the leading rusher, 28th ranked oline. Those are called facts.

So in 2017 Russ should've been MVP.

Cool. Okay.

What year is it?

Okay now you're confusing me. You just made a long post that was almost all about Mahomes LAST YEAR. So you're gonna have to pick a lane, are we sticking to this year or not?

You guys are so narrow you manage to be obtuse at the same time. It really is a marvel.

His play from last year had continue into this year. Hes not regressing as many expected. That was the point.

So past performance only counts when it helps you. As to past continuing well Wilson has been playing great for 7 years now so his performance from 2017 counts.

The issue is you painting Mahomes like he is lightbyears ahead of Wilson when he is not.

And light years is your words, not mine.

"Clearly better" simply means that it is clear that he is better, not that he is light years ahead.

 

[hawk45]

As far ad comparing the situation to Luck or RG3 or Cam, it holds no water.

None of those guys were clearly better than Wilson. In fact, in nearly every way it was clear at the time that they were not.

With Mahomes it is pretty easy to demonstrate that up to this point (which is all we have, BTW) he is clearly better than Russ and every other QB in the league.

Well the problem is the only way to prove it is to have them switch teams. I believe you put Wilson in KC he is lighting it up even more than Mahomes and if you put Mahomes on Seattle he would struggle. So you can believe what you want and so can I. However it is far easier to see a guy who puts up MVP numbers with little around him in a run first offense doing well in a pass first offense with top 3 talent then a guy with top 3 talent doing well with little around him.

It must be awesome to have one of those machines that transports you into alternative realities that dont actually exist.

How much does one of those run you?

Sorry McGruff, you're the one defending the position that requires one to have knowledge of alternate realities, which the poster you were responding to pointed out. How you turn that into him being the one wildly speculating is a mystery to me.

 

[McGruff]

So in 2017 Russ should've been MVP.

Cool. Okay.

What year is it?

Okay now you're confusing me. You just made a long post that was almost all about Mahomes LAST YEAR. So you're gonna have to pick a lane, are we sticking to this year or not?

You guys are so narrow you manage to be obtuse at the same time. It really is a marvel.

His play from last year had continue into this year. Hes not regressing as many expected. That was the point.

So pastbperformqnxe only counts when it helps you. As to past continuing well Wilson has been playing great for 7 years now so his performance from 2017 counts.

The issue is you painting Mahomes like he is lightbyears ahead of Wilson when he is not.

Because any connection between 2017 and 2019 is just as valid as between 2018 and 2019.

 

[erik2690]

Reading its fundamental but since that seems to be a problem, ONLY PLAYER IN NFL HISTORY TO ACCOUNT FOR OVER 80% OF HIS TEAMS IFFENSIVE YARDS AND IVER 95% OF HIS TEAMS OFFENSUVE TDS. Fyi had a winning record, was the leading rusher, 28th ranked oline. Those are called facts.

So in 2017 Russ should've been MVP.

Cool. Okay.

What year is it?

Okay now you're confusing me. You just made a long post that was almost all about Mahomes LAST YEAR. So you're gonna have to pick a lane, are we sticking to this year or not?

You guys are so narrow you manage to be obtuse at the same time. It really is a marvel.

His play from last year had continue into this year. Hes not regressing as many expected. That was the point.

Okay and this other posters point was that Russ has played great over extended periods as well. That's not a dramatically different point than you were making about Mahomes in any way and yet your response was essentially 'stick to this year' so it was a bit silly that you were bringing up a past year while responding in that way. If Mahomes before this season is relevant so is Wilson before this season or neither is relevant and we are sticking to MVP this year. This isn't difficult all you needed to do was not respond so snarky after having just brought up a bunch of stats from a different season. Try to be less obtuse okay?

 

[Seanhawk]

Russell could beat Mahomes in completion percentage, touchdowns, and overall efficiency. But he won’t beat Mahomes in yards, which, stupidly many fans and media seem to value.

The media is too deep into the Mahomes bandwagon to back off now ukeface: . It won’t matter that:

A) Mahomes has never had to play behind a bad O-line
B) Mahomes would not perform as well under Schotty as he is under Andy Reid
C) The Chiefs were 4-0 and winning their division before Mahomes became the starter
D) The Chiefs have a better team top to bottom than the Seahawks. Arguably better defense, better O-line, better scheme, better weapons


The media will overlook all of that, and even if Wilson and Mahomes are neck and neck in TD passes, Mahomes will win it. People struggle to distinguish between a great talent and a great QB. Mahomes is a great talent, and may evolve into even more greatness. But Russell, and even Tom Brady are better QUARTERBACKS. Better at reading defenses, arguably more accurate, and have shown that they can carry a team no matter the circumstance

B is speculation, C is not true.

B is an educated guess. Unless you’re going to also argue Joe Montana would perform as well under Schotty as he would under Bill Walsh? One of the greatest offensive minds...ever? Are you going to argue that defensive coordinators don’t matter too?

Andy Reid’s schemes have objectively increased the stats of every QB in that system. Anyone watching film of that offense can see how absolutely ingenious his schemes are.

And C is accurate. The Chiefs started 5-0 in 2017 with Alex Smith, and won the division. They won it in 2016 too, and finished 11-5 in 2015. Mahomes absolutely did NOT inherit a bad team. And Andy Reid’s teams have always been built around offense.

Even for all of the dismissiveness of Russ inheriting the LOB, he also never inherited a team built around offense to bolster him as a QB

C is not accurate at all, at least the way you had worded it originally. Mahomes started one meaningless game in 2017 and didn't take over a 4-0 team. He took over the season after Alex Smith left the Chiefs.

 

[John63]

Okay now you're confusing me. You just made a long post that was almost all about Mahomes LAST YEAR. So you're gonna have to pick a lane, are we sticking to this year or not?

You guys are so narrow you manage to be obtuse at the same time. It really is a marvel.

His play from last year had continue into this year. Hes not regressing as many expected. That was the point.

So pastbperformqnxe only counts when it helps you. As to past continuing well Wilson has been playing great for 7 years now so his performance from 2017 counts.

The issue is you painting Mahomes like he is lightbyears ahead of Wilson when he is not.

Because any connection between 2017 and 2019 is just as valid as between 2018 and 2019.

Your the one that said not to count 2017 but then said to count 2018.

 

[McGruff]

If you cant comprehend continuity, I dont know what to say.

 

[John63]

If you cant comprehend continuity, I dont know what to say.

If you cant understand your own hypocrisy then I am sorry for you

 

[McGruff]

Your pity is so appreciated.

 

[Scorpion05]

Seattle would have to move south by at least 500 miles and east by at least 1000 miles.

Is that where they were when Alexander won it?

Wilson needs to lead the NFL in TDs and QBR. Have the team.in the playoffs with a bye. Then it's 50-50

Some revisionism going on here. Alexander beat out Tiki Barber and Peyton Manning. And he had a better season than both by a mile. If it was close, then you can say that.

But it’s completely disingenuous to pretend as if some teams don’t get less attention than others. Or, that there isn’t bias in the media

 

[Scorpion05]

Russell could beat Mahomes in completion percentage, touchdowns, and overall efficiency. But he won’t beat Mahomes in yards, which, stupidly many fans and media seem to value.

The media is too deep into the Mahomes bandwagon to back off now ukeface: . It won’t matter that:

A) Mahomes has never had to play behind a bad O-line
B) Mahomes would not perform as well under Schotty as he is under Andy Reid
C) The Chiefs were 4-0 and winning their division before Mahomes became the starter
D) The Chiefs have a better team top to bottom than the Seahawks. Arguably better defense, better O-line, better scheme, better weapons


The media will overlook all of that, and even if Wilson and Mahomes are neck and neck in TD passes, Mahomes will win it. People struggle to distinguish between a great talent and a great QB. Mahomes is a great talent, and may evolve into even more greatness. But Russell, and even Tom Brady are better QUARTERBACKS. Better at reading defenses, arguably more accurate, and have shown that they can carry a team no matter the circumstance

B is speculation, C is not true.

B is an educated guess. Unless you’re going to also argue Joe Montana would perform as well under Schotty as he would under Bill Walsh? One of the greatest offensive minds...ever? Are you going to argue that defensive coordinators don’t matter too?

Andy Reid’s schemes have objectively increased the stats of every QB in that system. Anyone watching film of that offense can see how absolutely ingenious his schemes are.

And C is accurate. The Chiefs started 5-0 in 2017 with Alex Smith, and won the division. They won it in 2016 too, and finished 11-5 in 2015. Mahomes absolutely did NOT inherit a bad team. And Andy Reid’s teams have always been built around offense.

Even for all of the dismissiveness of Russ inheriting the LOB, he also never inherited a team built around offense to bolster him as a QB

C is not accurate at all, at least the way you had worded it originally. Mahomes started one meaningless game in 2017 and didn't take over a 4-0 team. He took over the season after Alex Smith left the Chiefs.

My point was that the Chiefs was 4-0 the season before Mahomes took over and even won their division. He inherited a talented team and a great offensive coach.

 

[Scorpion05]

Play in Dallas, L. A market or New York, but they will give him the Mr. Congeniality award.

I know you love to whine about east coast bias, and sometimes it works that way.

But this isnt one of them.

Wilson will come in 2nd to Mahomes because Mahomes is just flat out better.

Not Even close,McNabb looked great in Reids system also, then Reid got fired and McNabb became a guy.

Mahomes is a good QB, better then McNabb better then Smith who also looked all world in that system, I would love to see how Mahomes deals with adversity, pressure and win in a conservive offense.

How many MVPs did McNabb and Smith win? I forgot the exact number . . .

Any objective observer can see that while Wilson is a fabulous quarterback, Mahomes is on another level.

It not a criticism or even a slight. Mahomes is just that much better than anyone playing.

Sorry, not sorry.

This is completely and utterly dishonest. Are you trying to win an argument or have a logical debate??

Early in the 2017 season, Alex Smith was playing like a Top 3 Quarterback and there was MVP talk. Before Andy Reid, Alex Smith was considered a bust. McNabb has also been in MVP conversations and played way above what his actual talent was. So did Jeff Garcia. Andy Reid schemed the offense around them. This is basic football IQ

Are you seriously, honestly, arguing that Andy Reid isn’t a great offensive coach?

Let me ask you this. In what way is Mahomes a better Quarterback?

- Does he have more arm talent? (Actually, I’ll answer that. Yes he does).
- Does he read defenses better?
- Is he more accurate?
- Has he shown the ability to carry a average talent team?
- Has he shown he can play behind a below average O-line?

Dan Marino was a GREAT QB. But he was not a better QB than Tom Brady or even Peyton Manning. If you can’t have a logical debate on the difference between talent and great quarterbacking then this argument is a waste of time. Mahomes is putting up gaudy stats but the scheme definitely helps him and it is OBVIOUS on tape.

I look forward to you coming back and also arguing Jared Goff isn’t helped by McVay

 

[McGruff]

The difference between me and yall is that I dont see things as black and white.

Andy Reid can be a great coach with a great system, and Patrick Mahomes can be a great QB with phenomenal physical and mental gifts.

All those guys were elevated by Reid, but none anywhere near the level of Mahomes.

Alex Smith in the "top 3" (which no reasonable person ever believed) MVP year finished with 4000 yards and 27 TDs.

The VERY NEXT YEAR with the same coach, same scheme, and same cast, Mahomes threw for nearly 5000 and 50.

And that was BY FAR Smith's best year under read. Every other year he was right around 20 touchdowns.

McNabb's best year he had 30 touchdowns and 3800 yards, every other year he hovered around 20 touchdowns or less.

What Mahomes has done in Reids system exceeds anything any other QB has ever done under Reid, and continues to be historic.

Yes, he has to sustain it, but that doesnt take away from what he has done and continues to do.

That Russ runs second fiddle to a legendary run of QB performances from Mahomes is not a slight to Russ.