Update on sherman

[BocciHawk]

As far as requesting for them to take another sample, two possibilities immediately come to mind. First, these guys get tested all the time, he might very well have thought nothing of it, just a random glitch, move on. It's just not something that immediately jumps to mind as a protest type deal for many people.

(Side comment -- I won't go through the "naked" body scanners, I don't think they are safe, and when I opt out I often get crap from the security people saying "you know, everyone goes through them, it's not a big deal" yadda yadda. I do think that a lot of people just have the next step in mind and aren't terribly concerned about little weird glitches or things they are expected to deal with and move on from. I'm sure Sherman doesn't enjoy peeing in a cup, and he probably thought it was funny that the guy ended up with piss on his hands because of a leaky cup, and never remotely thought that the right response was to say "wait, I want to give another sample" drink water and wait 20 minutes and all that crap. He probably had better things to do.)

More to the point, second possibility, I bet the NFL doesn't allow people to give second samples. Some drugs particularly amphetamines can be flushed by water and vitamin C. If you allow second samples, imagine how that works... guy knows he's going to pee hot, so he accidentally cracks the plastic cup while peeing in it, lets the handler figure that out, says he'll give a second sample in 30 minutes, goes over and drinks a quart of water, tries to find and take three or four vitamin C tablets too, and pretends he can't pee, drinks another quart of water, waits another 30 minutes... he might have just reduced his odds of peeing hot from 100% to 30%.

 

[Mistashoesta]

Please read throughout the thread before posting replies to early replies.

I admit that I did not know that he denied the initial story. I saw the proof that he is denying that story.

And for those of you who are saying "innocent until proven guilty"...Im sorry, but hasn't he already been proven guilty?

He tested positive for Adderall, period. He is guilty, now he must prove his innocence. Notice: this is an "appeal" not a trial.

I doubt you would care about Shermans tribulations if the Hawks were 5-7 at this point in the season. Yet, here you are bright and early this Sunday morning on a opposing teams fan forum to vehemently enlighten us on your stance on the matter. Kick-offs not till 5:30. Go for a jog, go to church, watch the early games, read a book. Whatever!!! I'm sure you could find a million other things to do that wouldn't make you look like a troll. Our Hawks are relevant and a threat to your team. That's the only reason you are here. Maybe YOU should...

And somehow I am from San Fran? Good god, dumb@ss. Get real and get a life. Sherman isn't your dad, brother, or son. You have no real connection to this random dude. Im sorry I stated my opinion that makes a lot of sense to a lot of other people outside of die-hard obsessed Seahawks fans (even some of you agree).

SMH. Pathetic.

When you contradict yourself and bash others for investing so much time in a player, but then spend a fair amount of time trying to convince us that we are lost with our thoughts, it makes you look silly.

 

[Evil_Shenanigans]

The complete absence of any facts or data here are leading to quite a lot of petty bickering. Every argument hear has been based on hearsay. Did he do it? I suspect that he did. Will he be suspended? I suspect so.

Fact: Sherman tested positive for Adderall
Fact: It was reported that he stated that he drank from a water bottle
Fact: Sherman now denies this story
Fact: Sherman now says it was due to a broken container (obviously laced with adderall, the drug that Brandon Browner among others got caught with and didn't deny).
Fact: Brandon Browner got caught with the exact same substance.
Fact: It is nearly impossible for a container to break and then be replaced with another that somehow was magically laced with Adderall.

Just because you call something a fact does not make it one. Every instance you stated is either alleged or hearsay.

 

[MTS]

I have heard that this can be found to be in the body pretty easily even if a second test is needed, along with HGH and other items, mmj.

So I don't know why the NFL would disallow this. I am assuming we will hear more when the appeal goes on. All I really hope, is that if he did cheat, he pays the price. I think thats fair.

Or, the NFL should simply say "hey! you are getting paid millions, take whatever drugs/steroids you want and get really big and bad, more action!"

If every player wants to cheat and get big, just let 'em get big. I couldn't care less as long as it is a level playing field for everyone.

 

[BocciHawk]

Hair test would be meaningless for any amphetamine.

Honestly the more I hear about all this the more I think the NFL has a lame testing system. Cycling takes multiple samples, and keeps the others on ice until appeals are resolved. The simple fact they don't have a second sample to go to is just mind boggling. It's also very questionable that the sample was placed in another vessel, as no hands or anything should come in contact with the fluid... if a guy took the sample, was handling it, getting urine on his hands, then the sweat and anything else from his hands is getting into the sample, too, even while he's putting the sample in another cup. It's tainted, pure and simple.

I've stated before and again that a good outcome from this would be that Sherman gets off, and the NFL restructures and improves their testing to bring it in line with other world class sports...

Sherman should have complained about the faulty testing and took the sample again on the spot....

Or would he have no excuse for later then?

MTS, you are trolling or have poor reading comprehension.

In cycling, when you piss test, they give you two or three cups. You pee a little, then pee into the first cup, then pee into the second cup, and if it's a particular class of event, you pee into a third cup. You also give a blood test, and they do the same thing, they fill two or three vials. The first sample of each are tested immediately. The remaining samples are stored cold and only destroyed if the initial tests are negative OR if the initial tests are positive and all appeals have been exhausted.

The NFL should do the same thing. It's ridiculous that they are using a single sample, and presumably someone making $12 an hour to handle the sample and make sure that the individual really is peeing into the cup aka "meat gazer".

This $12 per hour person may not be capable of intelligently deciding when someone should resample or not, and as I stated in my earlier post, and is obvious to anyone who thinks about it for a minute, taking a second sample may in fact be a cheating type tactic in and of itself.

The whole idea of the testing regime that the NFL uses is that the annual test is supposed to be a surprise. You walk into the locker room, and they tell five guys "piss test, now" and they have to do it. If you let them have time to drink water and sit around, possibly with only some minor amount of supervision, you are just asking for the second sample to come out different than the first...

 

[MTS]

Please read throughout the thread before posting replies to early replies.

I admit that I did not know that he denied the initial story. I saw the proof that he is denying that story.

And for those of you who are saying "innocent until proven guilty"...Im sorry, but hasn't he already been proven guilty?

He tested positive for Adderall, period. He is guilty, now he must prove his innocence. Notice: this is an "appeal" not a trial.

I doubt you would care about Shermans tribulations if the Hawks were 5-7 at this point in the season. Yet, here you are bright and early this Sunday morning on a opposing teams fan forum to vehemently enlighten us on your stance on the matter. Kick-offs not till 5:30. Go for a jog, go to church, watch the early games, read a book. Whatever!!! I'm sure you could find a million other things to do that wouldn't make you look like a troll. Our Hawks are relevant and a threat to your team. That's the only reason you are here. Maybe YOU should...

And somehow I am from San Fran? Good god, dumb@ss. Get real and get a life. Sherman isn't your dad, brother, or son. You have no real connection to this random dude. Im sorry I stated my opinion that makes a lot of sense to a lot of other people outside of die-hard obsessed Seahawks fans (even some of you agree).

SMH. Pathetic.

When you contradict yourself and bash others for investing so much time in a player, but then spend a fair amount of time trying to convince us that we are lost with our thoughts, it makes you look silly.

Bright and early? For you, maybe. Its 12:30PM here (in Missouri). Contradict myself? Hardly. Would I care if the Seahawks are 5-7? I don't know. I still support the chiefs and they currently have 2 wins, what do you think?

Thanks for adding to the conversation and being completely off topic, though! Your insight has been great!

 

[MTS]

The whole idea of the testing regime that the NFL uses is that the annual test is supposed to be a surprise. You walk into the locker room, and they tell five guys "piss test, now" and they have to do it. If you let them have time to drink water and sit around, possibly with only some minor amount of supervision, you are just asking for the second sample to come out different than the first...

You do realize, you went back like 3 pages to quote that, right? You didn't post what you re-quoted of yourself until pages later and I responded directly underneath.

 

[BocciHawk]

I have heard that this can be found to be in the body pretty easily even if a second test is needed, along with HGH and other items, mmj.

I'm sorry, this is just totally wrong. Do some research.

Amphetamines are water soluble. They flush quickly. Even without special efforts, if you are talking about someone taking Adderall on a Thursday night for a test Friday, they will pee clean Sunday. If you drink extra water and take vitamin C, drink coffee to produce extra urine, you might be able to be clean in 12 hours, certainly 24.

THC is fat soluble. Same with LSD and many other psychoactives. It can stay stored in body fat for long periods of time, even years for chronic users. It's difficult to flush. Most tests will not detect it after a few weeks, because they aren't sensitive enough, but some tests (like human hair) can pick it up for years, if they are done properly with expensive modern equipment.

BTW, if your comment was correct, you'd think the answer would be super simple -- just test Sherman now. If he's clean, he was clean, and if he's dirty, then he was probably dirty then too. The NFL isn't doing that and Sherman isn't suggesting that, so you can tell from the behavior that this isn't a workable situation. Frankly, it would be cool if it was! You'd just have people give one sample, if it was hot, bring them in a few days or a week later, make them retest, and that would be the "appeal"...

 

[chris98251]

My question is I read where they took these tests early or in pre season, if i'm wrong please correct me, but why did they wait till now to start putting out results and suspending. Not just us but look across the whole league, if this was a virus they would call it a epidemic. Almost all these suspensions and claims happened in a three week period.

 

[BocciHawk]

The whole idea of the testing regime that the NFL uses is that the annual test is supposed to be a surprise. You walk into the locker room, and they tell five guys "piss test, now" and they have to do it. If you let them have time to drink water and sit around, possibly with only some minor amount of supervision, you are just asking for the second sample to come out different than the first...

You do realize, you went back like 3 pages to quote that, right? You didn't post what you re-quoted of yourself until pages later and I responded directly underneath.

What? I never quoted myself, or went back three pages... I'm writing, you know, from personal knowledge, opinion, etc.

When I quoted you, it was a comment made very recently... and my comment on it was totally off the cuff.

Step away from the crack pipe... oh, and by the way, crack is water soluble, so if you stop smoking now, you'll probably be clean by Tuesday.

 

[MTS]

I have heard that this can be found to be in the body pretty easily even if a second test is needed, along with HGH and other items, mmj.

I'm sorry, this is just totally wrong. Do some research.

Amphetamines are water soluble. They flush quickly. Even without special efforts, if you are talking about someone taking Adderall on a Thursday night for a test Friday, they will pee clean Sunday. If you drink extra water and take vitamin C, drink coffee to produce extra urine, you might be able to be clean in 12 hours, certainly 24.

BTW, if your comment was correct, you'd think the answer would be super simple -- just test Sherman now. If he's clean, he was clean, and if he's dirty, then he was probably dirty then too. The NFL isn't doing that and Sherman isn't suggesting that, so you can tell from the behavior that this isn't a workable situation. Frankly, it would be cool if it was! You'd just have people give one sample, if it was hot, bring them in a few days or a week later, make them retest, and that would be the "appeal"...

Dude, I highly doubt that if they tested him straight up and it was positive, 5 minutes later they tested him again it would be negative. Yes, it can be washed out, but it would like take gallons of water to do so, not 32 oz or something needed to get a second sample within a 20-30 minute period.

Also, you act like they were looking specifically for one drug, adderall, and they weren't. I highly, highly doubt he could instantly and completely flush it.

 

[BocciHawk]

My question is I read where they took these tests early or in pre season, if i'm wrong please correct me, but why did they wait till now to start putting out results and suspending. Not just us but look across the whole league, if this was a virus they would call it a epidemic. Almost all these suspensions and claims happened in a three week period.

Someone who has all the details in memory or wants to do the research will clean this up, but I think the test was September 8th, first week of the regular season, and they sat on the results for at least six weeks, until late October. When the players are notified, they can appeal, and the league takes some time to schedule the appeals, and in the case of Sherman, he had his appeal delayed... so you end up in December.

It is a bit of an epidemic, regardless, I think there's been 20+ suspensions for PEDs across the league. Many of them defensive backs, many of them stating it was for Adderall (though there's some question about that given that the NFL won't say which PED was tested positive, and many are possibly using steroids and then in the court of public opinion claiming it's Adderall).

 

[MTS]

The whole idea of the testing regime that the NFL uses is that the annual test is supposed to be a surprise. You walk into the locker room, and they tell five guys "piss test, now" and they have to do it. If you let them have time to drink water and sit around, possibly with only some minor amount of supervision, you are just asking for the second sample to come out different than the first...

You do realize, you went back like 3 pages to quote that, right? You didn't post what you re-quoted of yourself until pages later and I responded directly underneath.

What? I never quoted myself, or went back three pages... I'm writing, you know, from personal knowledge, opinion, etc.

When I quoted you, it was a comment made very recently... and my comment on it was totally off the cuff.

Step away from the crack pipe... oh, and by the way, crack is water soluble, so if you stop smoking now, you'll probably be clean by Tuesday.

Dude: The quote that you quoted me from was from page 4. Your next response appeared on page 5, my next response was underneath that, then you went back to page 4 again and quoted me telling me Im stupid.

Maybe you should get off the crack pipe, oh and if you drink 20oz of water or something, I hear amphetamines go away instantly!

 

[BocciHawk]

I have heard that this can be found to be in the body pretty easily even if a second test is needed, along with HGH and other items, mmj.

I'm sorry, this is just totally wrong. Do some research.

Amphetamines are water soluble. They flush quickly. Even without special efforts, if you are talking about someone taking Adderall on a Thursday night for a test Friday, they will pee clean Sunday. If you drink extra water and take vitamin C, drink coffee to produce extra urine, you might be able to be clean in 12 hours, certainly 24.

BTW, if your comment was correct, you'd think the answer would be super simple -- just test Sherman now. If he's clean, he was clean, and if he's dirty, then he was probably dirty then too. The NFL isn't doing that and Sherman isn't suggesting that, so you can tell from the behavior that this isn't a workable situation. Frankly, it would be cool if it was! You'd just have people give one sample, if it was hot, bring them in a few days or a week later, make them retest, and that would be the "appeal"...

Dude, I highly doubt that if they tested him straight up and it was positive, 5 minutes later they tested him again it would be negative. Yes, it can be washed out, but it would like take gallons of water to do so, not 32 oz or something needed to get a second sample within a 20-30 minute period.

Also, you act like they were looking specifically for one drug, adderall, and they weren't. I highly, highly doubt he could instantly and completely flush it.

READ my earlier comment. It's a gradient. From the moment the drug is in your system, it's going away. At some point, it goes away enough that the test won't pick it up. You can accelerate the rate that it's going away by doing many things... drinking water, coffee, and vitamin C are all easy ones. If you can't produce urine, these protocols -- and I don't know the NFL rules -- usually say to drink some water, up to 32 ounces or so, and wait 20 or 30 minutes, then try to pee.

My whole point is that say for arguments sake that a player had been taking Adderall. They stopped two days ago, so they knew they probably would be OK, but weren't sure. They get a test sprung on them as a surprise. ON PURPOSE, they break the cup, pee on their hands, something like that, and state they want to take a second sample. If the NFL allowed that, it would be a MAJOR way to cheat. They could say they need time to pee, drink water, wander off, possibly find some vitamin C in their locker... you get the idea, it becomes a way to cheat, the second sample, if it's gathered after the first sample, from a fresh batch of diluted urine.

I might also add that the first urine of the day is way more concentrated than any urine after that... so it is well known that if you know you are being tested that day, you want to wake up, pee, drink a bunch of water, have some coffee, pee again, and drink some more water... then go in for your test.

I'm not suggesting that if you take Adderall, drink 32 ounces of water, and get tested, all in a 30 minute period, that you'll be clean. That's ridiculous. I am saying that if you took Adderall two days ago, had been drinking water, coffee, vitamin C, walked in and were confronted with a test, that you'd significantly improve your chances of testing clean if you intentionally screwed up your first sample.

Long story short, people who simply suggest that Sherman should have said "dude, this cup is cracked, I need to give a second sample" are being naive as I would assume the NFL does NOT allow this as part of the testing process.

(The NFL SHOULD routinely take multiple samples from the same urination, and store the extra samples for testing if there's a positive result on the primary, but they apparently don't, which is just stupid and lazy.)

 

[Snohomie]

And for those of you who are saying "innocent until proven guilty"...Im sorry, but hasn't he already been proven guilty?

He tested positive for Adderall, period. He is guilty, now he must prove his innocence. Notice: this is an "appeal" not a trial.

Like so much of what you've posted in this thread, wrong.

You don't have to prove your innocence when you appeal, you challenge the legality of the "conviction" (since this isn't a court of law, that'd be the suspension). In this case, Sherman is charging that the evidence (the urine) shouldn't have been admissible because the agreed to procedure was not followed... that's all he is going to need to prove.

 

[ensett]

All the reports of what he "claimed" before are just bogus. Nobody has been allowed to talk about anything, nobody knows as much as they think they do.

 

[BocciHawk]

Dude: The quote that you quoted me from was from page 4. Your next response appeared on page 5, my next response was underneath that, then you went back to page 4 again and quoted me telling me Im stupid.

Maybe you should get off the crack pipe, oh and if you drink 20oz of water or something, I hear amphetamines go away instantly!

I am not attacking you personally, I just think that there's a lack of knowledge in this particular area.

Page 4 starts with the first post at 10:07 AM Pacific time. That's less than an hour ago. I did not reach back into the annals of history when selecting quotes...

 

[Davehawk]

I think MTS is being fairly reasonable. I love my Seahawks, but if he did in fact cheat he needs to pay the pauper.

I'm ok with waiting through the appeal process, but I definately lean towards him being guilty. Sounds like he's trying to get off on a technicality to me.

Just my two cents.

 

[CurryStopstheRuns]

I think MTS is being fairly reasonable. I love my Seahawks, but if he did in fact cheat he needs to pay the pauper.

I'm ok with waiting through the appeal process, but I definately lean towards him being guilty. Sounds like he's trying to get off on a technicality to me.

Just my two cents.

Where do you want the change sent?

 

[MTS]

I look at it like this:

No one here not me, not any of you know for a 100% fact that he did or did not get caught with PED.

In fact, it appears none of us are even sure what the correct NFL drug testing protocol is in regards to the broken cup that is being claimed. With that in mind, I presented my opinion and why I believe it and a lot of people have presented theirs (although, I find the ones who think he isnt guilty just wanted to throw out personal attacks or call me a troll or whatever, rather than having any type of sensible argument...but, what can you expect?)

The bottom line here is: if he is guilty, I hope he pays. If he isn't (which I doubt), I hope he gets off and is cleared.