Stolen Season (Corruption Compilation!)

[MO Hawk]

Remember the playoff game between the Rams and Saints? Remember this PI no call (I'm sure Sean Payton does)?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGM7rBXklwA

 

[RiverDog]

Everything comes to an end sooner or later... everything REALLY COOL is at some point corrupted by human nature and made flipping lame... I don't believe it was one they just missed... It wasn't the only bad call there were at least 2-3 more and it has happened in a bunch of games to the Hawks this season. It hurts losing to the Rams but I am one that can deal with the loss because I enjoy football and I respect the Rams and McVay but this is far beyond that I can't deal with cheating and in my mind that's what it is... they fire Carroll and I'm done...

First of all, I don't think Pete will get fired. If he's out, and IMO it's a 50/50 proposition at this point, he'll resign or retire rather than force Jodi Allen to fire him. Pete may be a lot of things, but he does not strike me as a confrontational type when it comes to interpersonal relationships. Even if it means that his retiring would cost him millions vs. forcing the Hawks to fire him, I think he takes the high road and leaves with his dignity intact. He also has a borderline HOF resume, and having been fired from 3 different NFL teams wouldn't bode well for his admission. JMHO.

Secondly, would you truly be "done" with our team if we fire Pete? I realize that you're a huge Pete supporter and would be disappointed if he were canned, but were you with us through the dark ages of the Behring years when he attempted to move the team to Southern California? If you were, you know as well as I do that there were much, much worse periods of which we endured.

 

[LTH]

Everything comes to an end sooner or later... everything REALLY COOL is at some point corrupted by human nature and made flipping lame... I don't believe it was one they just missed... It wasn't the only bad call there were at least 2-3 more and it has happened in a bunch of games to the Hawks this season. It hurts losing to the Rams but I am one that can deal with the loss because I enjoy football and I respect the Rams and McVay but this is far beyond that I can't deal with cheating and in my mind that's what it is... they fire Carroll and I'm done...

First of all, I don't think Pete will get fired. If he's out, and IMO it's a 50/50 proposition at this point, he'll resign or retire rather than force Jodi Allen to fire him. Pete may be a lot of things, but he does not strike me as a confrontational type when it comes to interpersonal relationships. Even if it means that his retiring would cost him millions vs. forcing the Hawks to fire him, I think he takes the high road and leaves with his dignity intact. He also has a borderline HOF resume, and having been fired from 3 different NFL teams wouldn't bode well for his admission. JMHO.

Secondly, would you truly be "done" with our team if we fire Pete? I realize that you're a huge Pete supporter and would be disappointed if he were canned, but were you with us through the dark ages of the Behring years when he attempted to move the team to Southern California? If you were, you know as well as I do that there were much, much worse periods of which we endured.

I think I see Pete differently than most because I understand him on a different level. Kind of like how you understand JFK theories on a different level because you researched it and you have an understanding of what is happening. I think this kind of an understanding makes it more personal which most don't really understand... and that's where it is for me.

I don't think Pete is going to step down and I don't think he is going to get fired. but if he does, I will see it as an injustice. We differ on if Pete is a good coach or not.. and that's ok.

Now if he has a bad season next year, I will feel differently about it... or I might even feel differently depending on how the current season plays out because we don't know what's going to happen...So i'm not just about Pete no matter what... If he deserves it then Yeah. But if it happens because the fans are not happy then yeah i'm gone.

But yeah, as I see it today, I don't think Pete deserves to be fired. I think there are things a head coach cannot control. If they do fire him it's going to make me want to be done.

I was done when Holmgren left for about 2-3 years but there is a whole story about that. i'm not going to talk publicly about. When the Hawks Hired Carroll, I thought it was a huge mistake until I figured out who Carroll was and he brought me back... So I don't know what is going to happen... but i don't think they will fire him...

Again Carroll is not the only issue for me the officiating in the NFL as a whole has me upset. in my mind the integrity of the game as well the purity is in question and not just because of the Rams game..

LTH

 

[RiverDog]

I think I see Pete differently than most because I understand him on a different level. Kind of like how you understand JFK theories on a different level because you researched it and you have an understanding of what is happening. I think this kind of an understanding makes it more personal which most don't really understand... and that's where it is for me.

I don't think Pete is going to step down and I don't think he is going to get fired. but if he does, I will see it as an injustice. We differ on if Pete is a good coach or not.. and that's ok.

Now if he has a bad season next year, I will feel differently about it... or I might even feel differently depending on how the current season plays out because we don't know what's going to happen...So i'm not just about Pete no matter what... If he deserves it then Yeah. But if it happens because the fans are not happy then yeah i'm gone.

But yeah, as I see it today, I don't think Pete deserves to be fired. I think there are things a head coach cannot control. If they do fire him it's going to make me want to be done.

I was done when Holmgren left for about 2-3 years but there is a whole story about that. i'm not going to talk publicly about. When the Hawks Hired Carroll, I thought it was a huge mistake until I figured out who Carroll was and he brought me back... So I don't know what is going to happen... but i don't think they will fire him...

Again Carroll is not the only issue for me the officiating in the NFL as a whole has me upset. in my mind the integrity of the game as well the purity is in question and not just because of the Rams game..

LTH

I think that Vince Lombardi was a great coach, but if he were alive and viable today, no way would I want him to coach the 2022 Seahawks. It's a different game, one that he's not equipped with to handle.

By the same token, I think that Pete Carroll is a great coach, one of the best defensive minds of this century. But, as evidence by the trading and signing of Jamal Adams, along with a number of other curious decisions, I think that the game has passed him by.

 

[LTH]

I think I see Pete differently than most because I understand him on a different level. Kind of like how you understand JFK theories on a different level because you researched it and you have an understanding of what is happening. I think this kind of an understanding makes it more personal which most don't really understand... and that's where it is for me.

I don't think Pete is going to step down and I don't think he is going to get fired. but if he does, I will see it as an injustice. We differ on if Pete is a good coach or not.. and that's ok.

Now if he has a bad season next year, I will feel differently about it... or I might even feel differently depending on how the current season plays out because we don't know what's going to happen...So i'm not just about Pete no matter what... If he deserves it then Yeah. But if it happens because the fans are not happy then yeah i'm gone.

But yeah, as I see it today, I don't think Pete deserves to be fired. I think there are things a head coach cannot control. If they do fire him it's going to make me want to be done.

I was done when Holmgren left for about 2-3 years but there is a whole story about that. i'm not going to talk publicly about. When the Hawks Hired Carroll, I thought it was a huge mistake until I figured out who Carroll was and he brought me back... So I don't know what is going to happen... but i don't think they will fire him...

Again Carroll is not the only issue for me the officiating in the NFL as a whole has me upset. in my mind the integrity of the game as well the purity is in question and not just because of the Rams game..

LTH

I think that Vince Lombardi was a great coach, but if he were alive and viable today, no way would I want him to coach the 2022 Seahawks. It's a different game, one that he's not equipped with to handle.

By the same token, I think that Pete Carroll is a great coach, one of the best defensive minds of this century. But, as evidence by the trading and signing of Jamal Adams, along with a number of other curious decisions, I think that the game has passed him by.

And that's fine your definitely entitled to your opinion.

I don't think it has passed him by at all... I was against the JA trade because i think they gave up too much for him but i also think that JA has made a significant impact on this team... I think JA will continue to make a significant impact on this team he is just going to keep on getting better his coverage skills have gotten much better since the beginning of the season he is turning into more of a complete player and that's because of good solid coaching

Also, those new corners are getting better anytime you keep the Rams passing yards under 250 you are doing really good... and that is due to great coaching as at the beginning of the season the Hawks were giving up almost 400 + yards a game passing or something close to that...

Not to mention the Hawks O line played very well against one of the best D lines in football there is a lot of improvement happening and that is due to good solid coaching...

you want to talk about the draft picks? Taylor is really doing well so is Brooks... Penny looks like he is on his way back and Dallas is developing into a really good all-around back. Colier is flashing he as well is developing maybe not as fast as everybody would have hoped but remember he missed his first season, so this is like his sophomore year. and this is due to good solid coaching.


Thats my take on it...

LTH

 

[pittpnthrs]

I think I see Pete differently than most because I understand him on a different level.

Lol

I was done when Holmgren left for about 2-3 years but there is a whole story about that.

So you already quit on your team once and are threatening to do so again. What a fan you are.

 

[RiverDog]

And that's fine your definitely entitled to your opinion.

I don't think it has passed him by at all... I was against the JA trade because i think they gave up too much for him but i also think that JA has made a significant impact on this team... I think JA will continue to make a significant impact on this team he is just going to keep on getting better his coverage skills have gotten much better since the beginning of the season he is turning into more of a complete player and that's because of good solid coaching

Also, those new corners are getting better anytime you keep the Rams passing yards under 250 you are doing really good... and that is due to great coaching as at the beginning of the season the Hawks were giving up almost 400 + yards a game passing or something close to that...

Not to mention the Hawks O line played very well against one of the best D lines in football there is a lot of improvement happening and that is due to good solid coaching...

you want to talk about the draft picks? Taylor is really doing well so is Brooks... Penny looks like he is on his way back and Dallas is developing into a really good all-around back. Colier is flashing he as well is developing maybe not as fast as everybody would have hoped but remember he missed his first season, so this is like his sophomore year. and this is due to good solid coaching.


Thats my take on it...

LTH

If you want to use as your standard of appraisal a narrow, cherry picked slice out of a season and pronounce Pete a great coach because we're playing better now than we were 6 weeks ago, then you go right ahead. But for my money, I'll judge him on the entire 17 game length of the season. It's not good enough to let your team do a face plant in September and October then rally and get them playing better in November and December. I'm also not limiting my assessment to this season. I'm looking at the full meal deal, from 2010-2021.

JA is an OK safety. He is an extremely gifted pass rusher that we utilized a lot last season when our front 4 pass rush was so anemic and we had to blitz to get pressure. But since we've been getting more production out of our front 7 this year and have been blitzing less, he hasn't been making plays at or behind the LOS this season. Instead, he's been asked to play in a more traditional role, an ordinary, off the shelf safety. He's not a great run stopper, doesn't fill holes between the tackles very well, has OK cover skills but isn't a ball hawk and doesn't defend a lot of passes. He's not the sideline-to-sideline safety Earl was and he's not the hybrid linebacker/safety, run stopper, tight end smotherer that Kam was. Adams is a solid player that could start for a lot of teams in this league, but he's nowhere near the value of what we paid for him, both in terms of draft capital as well as the contract we signed him to.

When Pete pulled the trigger on the trade then subsequently made Adams the highest paid safety in the league, I thought that he had something really special or exotic planned for Adams. But early this season, he admitted that they were still figuring out how to use him. In other words, even though he spent this un-Godly amount of money and draft capital and after a season in his lineup, Pete didn't know how he was going to use him. That remark clinched it for me on the Adams trade. Up until at least September of this season, Pete didn't know how to use this bright, shiny object he bought for his defense. That's why I think the game has passed him by.

So you like how Penny has been playing lately? Better enjoy his 8-10 carries a game in these last 3 games, assuming he stays healthy, as we declined to pick up his contract and will be a free agent at the end of the season. It's very unlikely that he'll be resigned because there's cheaper, less risky options out there and the hot tub is already occupied by a high paid running back that can't stay healthy. Penny wasn't a bad player and we couldn't have predicted his multiple injury problems, but I didn't like burning a first round pick on a 2 down player in a position with a short shelf life unless he was a once in a generation RB like a Derrick Henry or Saquan Barkley. As Chris Carson proved, there are a lot of very good RB's in the draft that can be had on the 2nd and 3rd days of the draft.

In any event, I'm done with Pete. I'll be eternally grateful for what he's done for our franchise, but it's time to move on.

 

[DJ_CJ]

Calls impacted some games but it’s ludicrous to blame that as the reason why we are at where we are. Don’t allow it to ever be a factor, period. Glaring holes coupled with piss poor scheming the entire year and lack of adapting is solely the reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[RiverDog]

Calls impacted some games but it’s ludicrous to blame that as the reason why we are at where we are. Don’t allow it to ever be a factor, period. Glaring holes coupled with piss poor scheming the entire year and lack of adapting is solely the reason.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I agree.

And while there is no doubt that the no call PI was absolutely horrible, we have to remember that the ball was severely underthrown and had the defender turned his head and made even a half hearted attempt to locate the ball, there wouldn't have been a penalty and the pass would have been incomplete or intercepted. It was a bad throw that we were looking to get bailed out on, so some of the blame has to fall back on Russell.

 

[LTH]

And that's fine your definitely entitled to your opinion.

I don't think it has passed him by at all... I was against the JA trade because i think they gave up too much for him but i also think that JA has made a significant impact on this team... I think JA will continue to make a significant impact on this team he is just going to keep on getting better his coverage skills have gotten much better since the beginning of the season he is turning into more of a complete player and that's because of good solid coaching

Also, those new corners are getting better anytime you keep the Rams passing yards under 250 you are doing really good... and that is due to great coaching as at the beginning of the season the Hawks were giving up almost 400 + yards a game passing or something close to that...

Not to mention the Hawks O line played very well against one of the best D lines in football there is a lot of improvement happening and that is due to good solid coaching...

you want to talk about the draft picks? Taylor is really doing well so is Brooks... Penny looks like he is on his way back and Dallas is developing into a really good all-around back. Colier is flashing he as well is developing maybe not as fast as everybody would have hoped but remember he missed his first season, so this is like his sophomore year. and this is due to good solid coaching.


Thats my take on it...

LTH

If you want to use as your standard of appraisal a narrow, cherry picked slice out of a season and pronounce Pete a great coach because we're playing better now than we were 6 weeks ago, then you go right ahead. But for my money, I'll judge him on the entire 17 game length of the season. It's not good enough to let your team do a face plant in September and October then rally and get them playing better in November and December. I'm also not limiting my assessment to this season. I'm looking at the full meal deal, from 2010-2021.

JA is an OK safety. He is an extremely gifted pass rusher that we utilized a lot last season when our front 4 pass rush was so anemic and we had to blitz to get pressure. But since we've been getting more production out of our front 7 this year and have been blitzing less, he hasn't been making plays at or behind the LOS this season. Instead, he's been asked to play in a more traditional role, an ordinary, off the shelf safety. He's not a great run stopper, doesn't fill holes between the tackles very well, has OK cover skills but isn't a ball hawk and doesn't defend a lot of passes. He's not the sideline-to-sideline safety Earl was and he's not the hybrid linebacker/safety, run stopper, tight end smotherer that Kam was. Adams is a solid player that could start for a lot of teams in this league, but he's nowhere near the value of what we paid for him, both in terms of draft capital as well as the contract we signed him to.

When Pete pulled the trigger on the trade then subsequently made Adams the highest paid safety in the league, I thought that he had something really special or exotic planned for Adams. But early this season, he admitted that they were still figuring out how to use him. In other words, even though he spent this un-Godly amount of money and draft capital and after a season in his lineup, Pete didn't know how he was going to use him. That remark clinched it for me on the Adams trade. Up until at least September of this season, Pete didn't know how to use this bright, shiny object he bought for his defense. That's why I think the game has passed him by.

So you like how Penny has been playing lately? Better enjoy his 8-10 carries a game in these last 3 games, assuming he stays healthy, as we declined to pick up his contract and will be a free agent at the end of the season. It's very unlikely that he'll be resigned because there's cheaper, less risky options out there and the hot tub is already occupied by a high paid running back that can't stay healthy. Penny wasn't a bad player and we couldn't have predicted his multiple injury problems, but I didn't like burning a first round pick on a 2 down player in a position with a short shelf life unless he was a once in a generation RB like a Derrick Henry or Saquan Barkley. As Chris Carson proved, there are a lot of very good RB's in the draft that can be had on the 2nd and 3rd days of the draft.

In any event, I'm done with Pete. I'll be eternally grateful for what he's done for our franchise, but it's time to move on.

I wanted to really think about your points before I responded to you, I've done that, and I have a solid understanding of where you are coming from.

I want to talk about what I agree with you first.

I was against the Jamal Adams trade, as I do think they paid too much for him. but i think there are more factors involved.

I think that you are right in saying, it is possible to pick up a back in the 2nd or 3rd round that would be a good quality back in the NFL.

Now that being said I have some incite that you might or might not agree with. My incites are NOT narrow, and I am not cherry-picking slices out of a season. you just don't understand my depth of thinking.

We agree that the Hawks paid too much for JA as it looks right now, but where we do not agree is the comment you made about that Carroll doesn't know how to use him. You mis understood the context in which Carroll made the statement.

If you understand Carrolls process, he like to find players that possess special qualities. JA has very special quality's but it's what he doesn't know about JA that he is talking about.

When a team gets a new player, the coaching staff has to learn about that player and learn how his skill set fits into the scheme, how his chemistry complements other players and vice versa. As well, learn how to maximize his skill set in different situations. that's what he is talking about and that just comes from reps... Plus, it's not like Carroll is going to tell anybody how he is going to use Adams why would he do that?

Nobody knew that the Hawks were going to not make the playoffs this season and were going to end up with say a top 8 pick. The consensus was that the Hawks would make the playoffs and would be giving the Jets a pick this year of 27th or something close to that. what 2 draft pick in the bottom half of the first round is going to give you 9 sacks their first year? so if you look at it from that perspective then it makes since. Hindsight is 20-20.

Now two things happened the first is that defenses adjusted to JA and the way the Seahawks were using him. So, now the Seahawks have to adjust the way they use him, or disguise the D looks in a different way.

Both Taylor and Robinson are just starting to come on, as well Dunlap is coming on more in his new role, and now that also changes the dynamic. but Adams gets hurt so we don't fully understand how the Hawks were going to use him.

The second thing that happened is that early on in the season the Hawks had a really serious issue at corner. JS drafted Brown and he got hurt. Flowers didn't work out, and so now they have to find new corners.

That means they have to coach these new corners up and get them to understand and feel comfortable in a D scheme that is new to them. the new corners have to create chemistry and have some continuity with the other players so that the D plays together to fully execute the D scheme effectively.

During this process they had to adjust the scheme, so they did not give up big plays to bad corner play. Because of that reason the scheme did not allow JA to fully play at his strengths, blitzing. you're not going to blitz al the time and leave your new corner one on one with a receiver that is going to toast him.

As well both Taylor and Brooks are still developing and have not developed their coverage skills. How do you develop them? you develop them by playing them and using their experiences to learn and adjust. I think if you were to take a close look at those players you can see they have been well coached, and they are developing in a very good way.

Also, during this process JA is developing and growing as a player. He is developing his coverage skills which netted 2 INTs

we don't fully know how good he is going to be yet and every down he plays they learn new things about him and every other player on the team as the D grows together.

So, it's a little more complicated than Pete doesn't know how to use JA if you look at it in full context.

Yes, Jamal does not have the same skill set as Earl Thomas or Kam. Those guys have their own special skill sets and I'm not sure why you think JA is NOT good against the run... I think he is good against the run. He might not be as fast as Earl but then again, Earl can't rush the passer like JA, so it's kind of a moot point they have different skill sets.

So you look at this Defense Now compared to the beginning of the season there is a HUGE difference in play. This D is down to their 3rd and 4th string cornerbacks due to injury and covid and yet they keep one of the most potent offenses below 250 yards passing and keep them under 20 points... way under the Rams NFL average... This D is VERY well coached.

Offensively this team has suffered because Wilson got hurt... It's as simple as that. This is the main reason this team is 5-9. Wilson is the key to offensive sucess... that and the running game.

People like to bag on the O line. I'm one of those people who said the o line needs to improve. But look over the last 3 games how this O line has improved. even more than that look how this O line has improved while suffering from injury's all season long. The last 3 games this unit has done a good job protecting Wilson ... Wilson has had the time he needs to make plays. There were times vs the Rams he had all day to throw the ball I was shocked at how much time he actually had... yes, the Rams got to him 3 times, but AD is the best defensive lineman in the game, and HE IS GOING to make his plays

The running game. Yes, I like Penny. He has some very special skill sets that set him apart from other running backs... I think the Hawks saw something special in him and I think the jury is still out on how good he can be. I don't know what the Hawks are going to do with his contract it will be an interesting situation that will define how his future will pan out with the Seahawks.

They draft players in the bottom third of the draft order and people think they are going to draft players that make an immediate impact because they have drafted players like that in the past. Just because they have done that in the past does not mean that they are going to do that every year. When a team drafts player where the Hawks are drafting it usually means they need to develop, and it usually takes them a couple of years to contribute fully. the LOB Defense was one of the best Defenses in NFL history and to expect that every year is unrealistic.

People don't understand Carrolls process. He uses the regular season to develop his players and every year they start slow usually. They get better as the season progresses and they work through the adversity the season brings them. as players grow into their roles, and as the team gels through good solid coaching. that's why I am patient because I know things are going to turn from the way they play at the beginning of the season. sometimes circumstances that are beyond anyone's control prohibits a winning season this year it was Russ getting hurt.

Carroll is not outdated. His schemes are not outdated which is prevalent in the fact other Teams in the NFL run similar D schemes successfully, like the 49ers.

Offensively, he went out and Hired Shane Waldron and adjusted when he needed to adjust.

This year, they learned a new offense with a new offensive coordinator and the adversity of an injured franchise QB, and starting running back. They were competitive in every game but 1. They did not meet their own expectations for the season.

Even when this team realized that they might not make the play offs they never gave up. They never wavered in their belief of who they are, and how hard they play.

That sir is a product of a team that believes in itself and a team that respects their coach. Those qualities are not present with a team that is poorly coached period...

Edit: People have different expectations of what good coaching is. People have different expectations of success. If you are ready to move on fine, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just giving credit where credit is due.



LTH

 

[Elemas]

I don’t really know why both sides of this argument can’t be right?

Fact 1: We’re just not that good of a team this year. We sucked several weeks before this Rams game.

Fact 2: The officiating of this last game was horrible. It’s reasonable to suggest that the primary reason we lost THIS game is due to poor officiating.

Fact 3: Most teams in the league have had legit arguments against poor and no calls this season. Happens every year but this year has seemed “special”.

I will say that the thread title is a little…misleading. But, OP listed some real, controversial moments. I understand being good enough of a team to negate poor officiating but, you shouldn’t have to deal with the inconsistencies that we’re witnessing this year.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

This is beyond delusional.

No. The refs aren’t working with the Illuminati or reptilian aliens to stop the Seahawks. The Seahawks are stopping the Seahawks. They’re just bad. Period.

 

[RiverDog]

I wanted to really think about your points before I responded to you, I've done that, and I have a solid understanding of where you are coming from.

I want to talk about what I agree with you first.

I was against the Jamal Adams trade, as I do think they paid too much for him. but i think there are more factors involved.

I think that you are right in saying, it is possible to pick up a back in the 2nd or 3rd round that would be a good quality back in the NFL.

Now that being said I have some incite that you might or might not agree with. My incites are NOT narrow, and I am not cherry-picking slices out of a season. you just don't understand my depth of thinking.

We agree that the Hawks paid too much for JA as it looks right now, but where we do not agree is the comment you made about that Carroll doesn't know how to use him. You mis understood the context in which Carroll made the statement.

If you understand Carrolls process, he like to find players that possess special qualities. JA has very special quality's but it's what he doesn't know about JA that he is talking about.

When a team gets a new player, the coaching staff has to learn about that player and learn how his skill set fits into the scheme, how his chemistry complements other players and vice versa. As well, learn how to maximize his skill set in different situations. that's what he is talking about and that just comes from reps... Plus, it's not like Carroll is going to tell anybody how he is going to use Adams why would he do that?

Nobody knew that the Hawks were going to not make the playoffs this season and were going to end up with say a top 8 pick. The consensus was that the Hawks would make the playoffs and would be giving the Jets a pick this year of 27th or something close to that. what 2 draft pick in the bottom half of the first round is going to give you 9 sacks their first year? so if you look at it from that perspective then it makes since. Hindsight is 20-20.

Now two things happened the first is that defenses adjusted to JA and the way the Seahawks were using him. So, now the Seahawks have to adjust the way they use him, or disguise the D looks in a different way.

Both Taylor and Robinson are just starting to come on, as well Dunlap is coming on more in his new role, and now that also changes the dynamic. but Adams gets hurt so we don't fully understand how the Hawks were going to use him.

The second thing that happened is that early on in the season the Hawks had a really serious issue at corner. JS drafted Brown and he got hurt. Flowers didn't work out, and so now they have to find new corners.

That means they have to coach these new corners up and get them to understand and feel comfortable in a D scheme that is new to them. the new corners have to create chemistry and have some continuity with the other players so that the D plays together to fully execute the D scheme effectively.

During this process they had to adjust the scheme, so they did not give up big plays to bad corner play. Because of that reason the scheme did not allow JA to fully play at his strengths, blitzing. you're not going to blitz al the time and leave your new corner one on one with a receiver that is going to toast him.

As well both Taylor and Brooks are still developing and have not developed their coverage skills. How do you develop them? you develop them by playing them and using their experiences to learn and adjust. I think if you were to take a close look at those players you can see they have been well coached, and they are developing in a very good way.

Also, during this process JA is developing and growing as a player. He is developing his coverage skills which netted 2 INTs

we don't fully know how good he is going to be yet and every down he plays they learn new things about him and every other player on the team as the D grows together.

So, it's a little more complicated than Pete doesn't know how to use JA if you look at it in full context.

Yes, Jamal does not have the same skill set as Earl Thomas or Kam. Those guys have their own special skill sets and I'm not sure why you think JA is NOT good against the run... I think he is good against the run. He might not be as fast as Earl but then again, Earl can't rush the passer like JA, so it's kind of a moot point they have different skill sets.

So you look at this Defense Now compared to the beginning of the season there is a HUGE difference in play. This D is down to their 3rd and 4th string cornerbacks due to injury and covid and yet they keep one of the most potent offenses below 250 yards passing and keep them under 20 points... way under the Rams NFL average... This D is VERY well coached.

Offensively this team has suffered because Wilson got hurt... It's as simple as that. This is the main reason this team is 5-9. Wilson is the key to offensive sucess... that and the running game.

People like to bag on the O line. I'm one of those people who said the o line needs to improve. But look over the last 3 games how this O line has improved. even more than that look how this O line has improved while suffering from injury's all season long. The last 3 games this unit has done a good job protecting Wilson ... Wilson has had the time he needs to make plays. There were times vs the Rams he had all day to throw the ball I was shocked at how much time he actually had... yes, the Rams got to him 3 times, but AD is the best defensive lineman in the game, and HE IS GOING to make his plays

The running game. Yes, I like Penny. He has some very special skill sets that set him apart from other running backs... I think the Hawks saw something special in him and I think the jury is still out on how good he can be. I don't know what the Hawks are going to do with his contract it will be an interesting situation that will define how his future will pan out with the Seahawks.

They draft players in the bottom third of the draft order and people think they are going to draft players that make an immediate impact because they have drafted players like that in the past. Just because they have done that in the past does not mean that they are going to do that every year. When a team drafts player where the Hawks are drafting it usually means they need to develop, and it usually takes them a couple of years to contribute fully. the LOB Defense was one of the best Defenses in NFL history and to expect that every year is unrealistic.

People don't understand Carrolls process. He uses the regular season to develop his players and every year they start slow usually. They get better as the season progresses and they work through the adversity the season brings them. as players grow into their roles, and as the team gels through good solid coaching. that's why I am patient because I know things are going to turn from the way they play at the beginning of the season. sometimes circumstances that are beyond anyone's control prohibits a winning season this year it was Russ getting hurt.

Carroll is not outdated. His schemes are not outdated which is prevalent in the fact other Teams in the NFL run similar D schemes successfully, like the 49ers.

Offensively, he went out and Hired Shane Waldron and adjusted when he needed to adjust.

This year, they learned a new offense with a new offensive coordinator and the adversity of an injured franchise QB, and starting running back. They were competitive in every game but 1. They did not meet their own expectations for the season.

Even when this team realized that they might not make the play offs they never gave up. They never wavered in their belief of who they are, and how hard they play.

That sir is a product of a team that believes in itself and a team that respects their coach. Those qualities are not present with a team that is poorly coached period...

Edit: People have different expectations of what good coaching is. People have different expectations of success. If you are ready to move on fine, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just giving credit where credit is due.



LTH

JA isn't....or rather wasn't, depending on his recovery..a bad safety. But he only excels in one area, pass rushing. He's an average at best run stopper (see the Derrick Henry TD) and he's average at best in pass coverage. He's not a ball hawk and in fact has had more surgeries (3) than he has interceptions (2).

Pete has never relied on his free safety to get pressure on the quarterback. In his entire career, Kam Chancellor had just two sacks, and none from 2011-2014, the years when our defense was at its zenith. And there's a very good reason for not relying on your free safety to get pressure. It leaves the secondary exposed, and if the offense gets wise to it, can exploit it. Keep in mind that Adams only excelled on two very weak defenses, the Jets and our defense from last season. A good defense doesn't need to send their free safety to get pressure, at least not on a regular basis, like once or twice a game.

Don't you find it odd that although the two of us agree that the Adams trade was a bad one yet when Pete was asked about it just a few weeks ago, he characterized it as "fantastic" even though Adams was hurt yet again? How can anyone claim that they have a unique insight into how Pete feels about his utilization of a player when their estimate is so off base from what the man himself publicly claims? IMO that remark, when he said it and the facial ques I saw as he responded, indicated to me that he could feel his nose growing when he said it, that he was on the defensive. It was almost laughable, and IMO the reason he used such a dramatic superlative was to intimidate his audience so they wouldn't pursue the issue knowing how strongly he felt, that they'd invoke his wrath should they disagree with him. Although he didn't say "next question", that was clearly what he was implying, that he was uncomfortable discussing it.

I stand by what I said: Outside of the standard, traditional role free safeties are asked to play, Pete does not know how to take advantage of Adams special skill set without exposing our secondary to an unnecessary risk. Why send the safety when you can get pressure from your front 7?

As far as the rest of your observations, yes, some of those guys, like Brooks and Taylor, are looking better...a lot better. I'm relatively comfortable with the progression of our defense. But the offense has canceled out any improvement that we've seen from the defense. The OL has been very inconsistent, and our quarterback has been playing lousy even before his injury. It's been a circular path we've been following for 7 years. We can never get both units playing well simultaneously.

I just don't see this team getting better anytime soon under the current management. I'm done with Pete.

BTW, Merry Christmas!

 

[LTH]

I wanted to really think about your points before I responded to you, I've done that, and I have a solid understanding of where you are coming from.

I want to talk about what I agree with you first.

I was against the Jamal Adams trade, as I do think they paid too much for him. but i think there are more factors involved.

I think that you are right in saying, it is possible to pick up a back in the 2nd or 3rd round that would be a good quality back in the NFL.

Now that being said I have some incite that you might or might not agree with. My incites are NOT narrow, and I am not cherry-picking slices out of a season. you just don't understand my depth of thinking.

We agree that the Hawks paid too much for JA as it looks right now, but where we do not agree is the comment you made about that Carroll doesn't know how to use him. You mis understood the context in which Carroll made the statement.

If you understand Carrolls process, he like to find players that possess special qualities. JA has very special quality's but it's what he doesn't know about JA that he is talking about.

When a team gets a new player, the coaching staff has to learn about that player and learn how his skill set fits into the scheme, how his chemistry complements other players and vice versa. As well, learn how to maximize his skill set in different situations. that's what he is talking about and that just comes from reps... Plus, it's not like Carroll is going to tell anybody how he is going to use Adams why would he do that?

Nobody knew that the Hawks were going to not make the playoffs this season and were going to end up with say a top 8 pick. The consensus was that the Hawks would make the playoffs and would be giving the Jets a pick this year of 27th or something close to that. what 2 draft pick in the bottom half of the first round is going to give you 9 sacks their first year? so if you look at it from that perspective then it makes since. Hindsight is 20-20.

Now two things happened the first is that defenses adjusted to JA and the way the Seahawks were using him. So, now the Seahawks have to adjust the way they use him, or disguise the D looks in a different way.

Both Taylor and Robinson are just starting to come on, as well Dunlap is coming on more in his new role, and now that also changes the dynamic. but Adams gets hurt so we don't fully understand how the Hawks were going to use him.

The second thing that happened is that early on in the season the Hawks had a really serious issue at corner. JS drafted Brown and he got hurt. Flowers didn't work out, and so now they have to find new corners.

That means they have to coach these new corners up and get them to understand and feel comfortable in a D scheme that is new to them. the new corners have to create chemistry and have some continuity with the other players so that the D plays together to fully execute the D scheme effectively.

During this process they had to adjust the scheme, so they did not give up big plays to bad corner play. Because of that reason the scheme did not allow JA to fully play at his strengths, blitzing. you're not going to blitz al the time and leave your new corner one on one with a receiver that is going to toast him.

As well both Taylor and Brooks are still developing and have not developed their coverage skills. How do you develop them? you develop them by playing them and using their experiences to learn and adjust. I think if you were to take a close look at those players you can see they have been well coached, and they are developing in a very good way.

Also, during this process JA is developing and growing as a player. He is developing his coverage skills which netted 2 INTs

we don't fully know how good he is going to be yet and every down he plays they learn new things about him and every other player on the team as the D grows together.

So, it's a little more complicated than Pete doesn't know how to use JA if you look at it in full context.

Yes, Jamal does not have the same skill set as Earl Thomas or Kam. Those guys have their own special skill sets and I'm not sure why you think JA is NOT good against the run... I think he is good against the run. He might not be as fast as Earl but then again, Earl can't rush the passer like JA, so it's kind of a moot point they have different skill sets.

So you look at this Defense Now compared to the beginning of the season there is a HUGE difference in play. This D is down to their 3rd and 4th string cornerbacks due to injury and covid and yet they keep one of the most potent offenses below 250 yards passing and keep them under 20 points... way under the Rams NFL average... This D is VERY well coached.

Offensively this team has suffered because Wilson got hurt... It's as simple as that. This is the main reason this team is 5-9. Wilson is the key to offensive sucess... that and the running game.

People like to bag on the O line. I'm one of those people who said the o line needs to improve. But look over the last 3 games how this O line has improved. even more than that look how this O line has improved while suffering from injury's all season long. The last 3 games this unit has done a good job protecting Wilson ... Wilson has had the time he needs to make plays. There were times vs the Rams he had all day to throw the ball I was shocked at how much time he actually had... yes, the Rams got to him 3 times, but AD is the best defensive lineman in the game, and HE IS GOING to make his plays

The running game. Yes, I like Penny. He has some very special skill sets that set him apart from other running backs... I think the Hawks saw something special in him and I think the jury is still out on how good he can be. I don't know what the Hawks are going to do with his contract it will be an interesting situation that will define how his future will pan out with the Seahawks.

They draft players in the bottom third of the draft order and people think they are going to draft players that make an immediate impact because they have drafted players like that in the past. Just because they have done that in the past does not mean that they are going to do that every year. When a team drafts player where the Hawks are drafting it usually means they need to develop, and it usually takes them a couple of years to contribute fully. the LOB Defense was one of the best Defenses in NFL history and to expect that every year is unrealistic.

People don't understand Carrolls process. He uses the regular season to develop his players and every year they start slow usually. They get better as the season progresses and they work through the adversity the season brings them. as players grow into their roles, and as the team gels through good solid coaching. that's why I am patient because I know things are going to turn from the way they play at the beginning of the season. sometimes circumstances that are beyond anyone's control prohibits a winning season this year it was Russ getting hurt.

Carroll is not outdated. His schemes are not outdated which is prevalent in the fact other Teams in the NFL run similar D schemes successfully, like the 49ers.

Offensively, he went out and Hired Shane Waldron and adjusted when he needed to adjust.

This year, they learned a new offense with a new offensive coordinator and the adversity of an injured franchise QB, and starting running back. They were competitive in every game but 1. They did not meet their own expectations for the season.

Even when this team realized that they might not make the play offs they never gave up. They never wavered in their belief of who they are, and how hard they play.

That sir is a product of a team that believes in itself and a team that respects their coach. Those qualities are not present with a team that is poorly coached period...

Edit: People have different expectations of what good coaching is. People have different expectations of success. If you are ready to move on fine, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just giving credit where credit is due.



LTH

JA isn't....or rather wasn't, depending on his recovery..a bad safety. But he only excels in one area, pass rushing. He's an average at best run stopper (see the Derrick Henry TD) and he's average at best in pass coverage. He's not a ball hawk and in fact has had more surgeries (3) than he has interceptions (2).

Pete has never relied on his free safety to get pressure on the quarterback. In his entire career, Kam Chancellor had just two sacks, and none from 2011-2014, the years when our defense was at its zenith. And there's a very good reason for not relying on your free safety to get pressure. It leaves the secondary exposed, and if the offense gets wise to it, can exploit it. Keep in mind that Adams only excelled on two very weak defenses, the Jets and our defense from last season. A good defense doesn't need to send their free safety to get pressure, at least not on a regular basis, like once or twice a game.

Don't you find it odd that although the two of us agree that the Adams trade was a bad one yet when Pete was asked about it just a few weeks ago, he characterized it as "fantastic" even though Adams was hurt yet again? How can anyone claim that they have a unique insight into how Pete feels about his utilization of a player when their estimate is so off base from what the man himself publicly claims? IMO that remark, when he said it and the facial ques I saw as he responded, indicated to me that he could feel his nose growing when he said it, that he was on the defensive. It was almost laughable, and IMO the reason he used such a dramatic superlative was to intimidate his audience so they wouldn't pursue the issue knowing how strongly he felt, that they'd invoke his wrath should they disagree with him. Although he didn't say "next question", that was clearly what he was implying, that he was uncomfortable discussing it.

I stand by what I said: Outside of the standard, traditional role free safeties are asked to play, Pete does not know how to take advantage of Adams special skill set without exposing our secondary to an unnecessary risk. Why send the safety when you can get pressure from your front 7?

As far as the rest of your observations, yes, some of those guys, like Brooks and Taylor, are looking better...a lot better. I'm relatively comfortable with the progression of our defense. But the offense has canceled out any improvement that we've seen from the defense. The OL has been very inconsistent, and our quarterback has been playing lousy even before his injury. It's been a circular path we've been following for 7 years. We can never get both units playing well simultaneously.

I just don't see this team getting better anytime soon under the current management. I'm done with Pete.

BTW, Merry Christmas!

And Merry Christmas to you! I hope your enjoying your family on this wonderful snowy day.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm exploring what is good coaching and what is not. I think it's more complicated than most suggest. I don't think that many UNDERSTAND the process this team goes through every year.

We don't know how good JA is ultimately going to be. We have not seen what this D is going to look like when the front 7 is clicking and playing together with the full potential. This D is still not playing to its potential. So, as it may look like his skill set is limited, they have NOT opened up the scheme enough to show his full skill set and that's just a fact. I personally don't have a problem with JA play. I think he can be better in coverage, but I think he is getting better and that's due to good coaching. He doesn't have a history of injury in college and let's face it injury in the NFL is a problem for every player and every team... this is a brutal sport and injury is part of the game. I don't have any problem with his run defense and certainly not with his rushing skills. I don't have a problem with blitzing him at all. but to blitz him you have to have a secondary that can handle man to man one on one and that hasn't been the case consistently this season.

I'm using the defensive side of the ball because it's a less complicated and an easier example.

What is lousy coaching? Most say that injuries are not an excuse. Ok... I don't totally agree with that but let's explore that. I've already gone into what happened with the corners. Poor coaching would be Not being able to find adequate corners to replace the starters, not adequately adjusting the scheme to protect those corners until they are up to speed (remember they had no training camp to learn the D scheme) poor coaching would not see a steady improvement with developing players. Poor coaching, we would see blow outs and the games would not be competitive. Poor coaching would be players giving up and not playing for their coach. We have seen none of that. quite the opposite.

Ok so to your point about the O. I'm going to use the Rams game as an example. Russ missed the bomb to Metcalf and the pass to Dallas he was short of both those passes never mind the PI non call. Both those receivers were wide open if Russ hit them in stride both those plays are a TD's or huge gainers that change the outcome of the game, and we are having a very different conversation right now.

The question is, was the offense poorly coached? Is It Carrolls fault that those two defining plays were not executed?
Well... from what I can see the O line gave Wilson enough time to make the plays... they had the right play call because both receivers were open. Wilson just missed them... pure and simple. That has been the story the last 6 games. Wilson isn't right yet and we all know that because we have seen Wilson hit those plays 99.9% of the time for the last 9 years.

So now the question becomes Did Carroll let Wilson come back to early and is that his fault? This is a great question and one that is VERY difficult to answer with the information we have.

Looking at it from Carrolls point of view it's an extremely difficult decision. Your QB is telling you he feels fine and is ready to go. From what Carroll is saying Wilson was not missing throws in practice (can't really confirm that.) according to Carroll the Dr said that Wilson was ready to play. So, with the information we have assuming it's accurate and truthful, I don't why that should be held against Carroll.

Ok... Let's look at Geno. Did Geno do an adequate job as a backup QB? Vs the Rams, The D made the stop it needed to make to put the team in position to win the game. Geno was good enough to put the Hawks in position to win the game. He was making the game winning drive when he threw a pick. Again, If you look at the play there was a PI no call that was completely obvious. But even if you look past that no call it wasn't Geno's fault that Lockett "Slipped" the pass was where it was supposed to be. It wasn't poor coaching because they had the right play called and the team was totally competitive against one of the best teams in football with a backup QB. It was an unfortunate missed call that made the difference in a close division rival game.

Geno vs the Steelers. Geno played well brought the team back to over time. He played well throughout the game. In over time he was stripped of the ball and the Hawks lost the game that one was on Geno.

Vs the Saints the game was lost on a extremely windy day to 2 missed FG's. Geno played ok not great... the Hawks had trouble late with the Saints D line.

and then Geno vs Jacksonville, he tore it up, so he lost 2 1/4 out of 3 games

So, I don't see horrible play by Geno. I think he did his job. he wasn't lights out, but his play wasn't the reason the Hawks lost most of those games. Yes, he could have played better but was it poor coaching? I don't think so from my perspective.

So now the question is should Pete have benched Wilson and played Geno. Is that the decision that doomed the Hawks season? Really hard to say. I don't know. I don't think anybody could say how Geno would have played. But the one thing I do know that if Geno didn't play well, they would have said Carroll should have played Wilson... So, it's kind of a double-edged sword.

Let's talk about the O line.

The O line has not performed at a Pro bowl level. that's just a fact. But they are NOT as bad as people say they are. the o line has been consistently progressing

The truth is every single one of those O linemen have been dealing with injury at one point or another during this season... Thats just part of the game but if you look around the league the really good O lines are the ones that have not had injury issues the whole season. An O line needs to play together consistently to create continuity...the Seahawks have not had that luxury... So, the question is, was it coaching that created the issues on the O line?

What do we know?

We know that the O line has been getting better slowly through the progression of the season as apparent of the last 3 games. We know that the Hawks have coached up players like Ethan Pocic and Jake Curhan that have performed admirably. We know that when the Hawks are playing their starting lineup, they are much better. we know that the Hawks have given up more sacks than anyone in the NFL. We know that the Hawks have played teams that have some of the best D lines in the NFL and still remained competitive. Rams, Saints, 49ers, Cards, Steelers, Packers, WFT.

Regardless of injury it is an area that needs to improve but i don't believe this unit is poorly coached I just think they don't have the depth they need. If they were poorly coached there would not be improvement.

So, in my mind I don't see this team as poorly coached, and they should not fire Pete.

I realize you are ready for a new coach. I do not see how a new coach would have made this season a winning season. I just don't. I think there were just unfortunate things that happened that were out of control of the head coach

Would a first-round pick and a third-round pick have changed this season? Would those picks have equaled or surpassed JA play? I don't think so not in my opinion. as it takes time for even High round draft picks to understand and grow into their roles.


LTH

 

[RiverDog]

And Merry Christmas to you! I hope your enjoying your family on this wonderful snowy day.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm exploring what is good coaching and what is not. I think it's more complicated than most suggest. I don't think that many UNDERSTAND the process this team goes through every year.

We don't know how good JA is ultimately going to be. We have not seen what this D is going to look like when the front 7 is clicking and playing together with the full potential. This D is still not playing to its potential. So, as it may look like his skill set is limited, they have NOT opened up the scheme enough to show his full skill set and that's just a fact. I personally don't have a problem with JA play. I think he can be better in coverage, but I think he is getting better and that's due to good coaching. He doesn't have a history of injury in college and let's face it injury in the NFL is a problem for every player and every team... this is a brutal sport and injury is part of the game. I don't have any problem with his run defense and certainly not with his rushing skills. I don't have a problem with blitzing him at all. but to blitz him you have to have a secondary that can handle man to man one on one and that hasn't been the case consistently this season.

I'm using the defensive side of the ball because it's a less complicated and an easier example.

What is lousy coaching? Most say that injuries are not an excuse. Ok... I don't totally agree with that but let's explore that. I've already gone into what happened with the corners. Poor coaching would be Not being able to find adequate corners to replace the starters, not adequately adjusting the scheme to protect those corners until they are up to speed (remember they had no training camp to learn the D scheme) poor coaching would not see a steady improvement with developing players. Poor coaching, we would see blow outs and the games would not be competitive. Poor coaching would be players giving up and not playing for their coach. We have seen none of that. quite the opposite.

Ok so to your point about the O. I'm going to use the Rams game as an example. Russ missed the bomb to Metcalf and the pass to Dallas he was short of both those passes never mind the PI non call. Both those receivers were wide open if Russ hit them in stride both those plays are a TD's or huge gainers that change the outcome of the game, and we are having a very different conversation right now.

The question is, was the offense poorly coached? Is It Carrolls fault that those two defining plays were not executed?
Well... from what I can see the O line gave Wilson enough time to make the plays... they had the right play call because both receivers were open. Wilson just missed them... pure and simple. That has been the story the last 6 games. Wilson isn't right yet and we all know that because we have seen Wilson hit those plays 99.9% of the time for the last 9 years.

So now the question becomes Did Carroll let Wilson come back to early and is that his fault? This is a great question and one that is VERY difficult to answer with the information we have.

Looking at it from Carrolls point of view it's an extremely difficult decision. Your QB is telling you he feels fine and is ready to go. From what Carroll is saying Wilson was not missing throws in practice (can't really confirm that.) according to Carroll the Dr said that Wilson was ready to play. So, with the information we have assuming it's accurate and truthful, I don't why that should be held against Carroll.

Ok... Let's look at Geno. Did Geno do an adequate job as a backup QB? Vs the Rams, The D made the stop it needed to make to put the team in position to win the game. Geno was good enough to put the Hawks in position to win the game. He was making the game winning drive when he threw a pick. Again, If you look at the play there was a PI no call that was completely obvious. But even if you look past that no call it wasn't Geno's fault that Lockett "Slipped" the pass was where it was supposed to be. It wasn't poor coaching because they had the right play called and the team was totally competitive against one of the best teams in football with a backup QB. It was an unfortunate missed call that made the difference in a close division rival game.

Geno vs the Steelers. Geno played well brought the team back to over time. He played well throughout the game. In over time he was stripped of the ball and the Hawks lost the game that one was on Geno.

Vs the Saints the game was lost on a extremely windy day to 2 missed FG's. Geno played ok not great... the Hawks had trouble late with the Saints D line.

and then Geno vs Jacksonville, he tore it up, so he lost 2 1/4 out of 3 games

So, I don't see horrible play by Geno. I think he did his job. he wasn't lights out, but his play wasn't the reason the Hawks lost most of those games. Yes, he could have played better but was it poor coaching? I don't think so from my perspective.

So now the question is should Pete have benched Wilson and played Geno. Is that the decision that doomed the Hawks season? Really hard to say. I don't know. I don't think anybody could say how Geno would have played. But the one thing I do know that if Geno didn't play well, they would have said Carroll should have played Wilson... So, it's kind of a double-edged sword.

Let's talk about the O line.

The O line has not performed at a Pro bowl level. that's just a fact. But they are NOT as bad as people say they are. the o line has been consistently progressing

The truth is every single one of those O linemen have been dealing with injury at one point or another during this season... Thats just part of the game but if you look around the league the really good O lines are the ones that have not had injury issues the whole season. An O line needs to play together consistently to create continuity...the Seahawks have not had that luxury... So, the question is, was it coaching that created the issues on the O line?

What do we know?

We know that the O line has been getting better slowly through the progression of the season as apparent of the last 3 games. We know that the Hawks have coached up players like Ethan Pocic and Jake Curhan that have performed admirably. We know that when the Hawks are playing their starting lineup, they are much better. we know that the Hawks have given up more sacks than anyone in the NFL. We know that the Hawks have played teams that have some of the best D lines in the NFL and still remained competitive. Rams, Saints, 49ers, Cards, Steelers, Packers, WFT.

Regardless of injury it is an area that needs to improve but i don't believe this unit is poorly coached I just think they don't have the depth they need. If they were poorly coached there would not be improvement.

So, in my mind I don't see this team as poorly coached, and they should not fire Pete.

I realize you are ready for a new coach. I do not see how a new coach would have made this season a winning season. I just don't. I think there were just unfortunate things that happened that were out of control of the head coach

Would a first-round pick and a third-round pick have changed this season? Would those picks have equaled or surpassed JA play? I don't think so not in my opinion. as it takes time for even High round draft picks to understand and grow into their roles.


LTH

No snowy day here on the dry side. We rarely have a white Christmas in the Tri Cities and can go all season with just a few inches of snow.

You said a whole lot in your previous comments so please don't expect me to match them in mine. I get the sense that we're each making circular arguments.

First of all, the JA trade. Yes, the jury is still out. There's the possibility that his shoulder permanently heals, Pete finally figures out how to use him in a manner that will revolutionize our defense, and we win the Lombardi with JA being named DPOY. That's what it would take for this trade to pay for itself. But the possibility of that happening is about the same as our making the playoffs this season. JA injured the same shoulder at the end of last season and had surgery on it. I'm no medical expert, but that doesn't sound very good for a full recovery, more like a chronic problem that will never be right, especially given the position he plays.

Secondly Geno. I agree with you that he didn't play all that badly. I don't think we can lay the Rams game on him. He came in off the bench trailing one of the best teams in the league after not having the advantage of working with the first unit throughout the week. The Steelers and Saints losses are both on him. He didn't play well enough to win, committing a fatal turnover in OT of one game and completing barely 50% of his passes in the other. IMO with a healthy Russell we likely win one but not both of those two.

As far as Pete's decision to go with Russell following his return from IR, I think I answered that question adequately in another thread and see no benefit in repeating it here.

The OL has always been a weakness of Pete Carroll-coached teams. As much grief as I've given him for the JA trade, an even worse one IMO was the Jimmy Graham deal where we not only gave up a first round pick, we traded a Pro Bowl center that at 29 years old was in the prime of his career without a viable plan to replace him for a player that did not fit our scheme. As an inline tight end, Graham was a soft blocker playing on a line that had its difficulties in pass protection where the tight end is frequently held in to supplement pass protection and in an offense that had a run first philosophy. It shows just how little appreciation Pete has for the OL. Yes, Solari has done better than Cable has at utilizing the talent he's been given, but since his arrival in 2017, Pete hasn't been giving him much to work with. If you need evidence, compare the draft selections we've dedicated to the OL over the past 4 drafts with the previous 4 we had with Cable as our OL coach.

My summary of this season is that with a completely healthy Russell, we likely win enough games to get a wild card berth but we wouldn't have beaten any of the likely division champs (Packers, Bucs, Cowboys, or Rams) and like last season, would have been one and done. Russell had not been playing consistently well before his injury, completing a league worst 30% of his passes on 3rd downs and since his return, continues to make bad decisions that have nothing to do with his injured finger. Since midway through the 2020 season, I haven't seen anything out of Russell that would cause me to feel that he would have made up enough of a difference this season to turn us from a last place 5-9 team into a SB contender. Russell needs either a completely different system with us or a different location with another team if he is to re-invigorate his career, and I'm sure that's exactly what's going through his mind.

I started out this season saying those kinds of results, a one and done performance in the playoffs, which in my estimation is what would have happened had everything gone right, are no longer enough to justify staying the course with Pete. I have seen absolutely nothing this season that would make me change my opinion of us treading water, no longer improving, season after season of middle of the road .500ish teams good enough to make the playoffs in a very liberal seeding system that rewards mediocre teams but not good enough to challenge for a conference championship. I see no logic in repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

 

[LTH]

And Merry Christmas to you! I hope your enjoying your family on this wonderful snowy day.

Again, I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm exploring what is good coaching and what is not. I think it's more complicated than most suggest. I don't think that many UNDERSTAND the process this team goes through every year.

We don't know how good JA is ultimately going to be. We have not seen what this D is going to look like when the front 7 is clicking and playing together with the full potential. This D is still not playing to its potential. So, as it may look like his skill set is limited, they have NOT opened up the scheme enough to show his full skill set and that's just a fact. I personally don't have a problem with JA play. I think he can be better in coverage, but I think he is getting better and that's due to good coaching. He doesn't have a history of injury in college and let's face it injury in the NFL is a problem for every player and every team... this is a brutal sport and injury is part of the game. I don't have any problem with his run defense and certainly not with his rushing skills. I don't have a problem with blitzing him at all. but to blitz him you have to have a secondary that can handle man to man one on one and that hasn't been the case consistently this season.

I'm using the defensive side of the ball because it's a less complicated and an easier example.

What is lousy coaching? Most say that injuries are not an excuse. Ok... I don't totally agree with that but let's explore that. I've already gone into what happened with the corners. Poor coaching would be Not being able to find adequate corners to replace the starters, not adequately adjusting the scheme to protect those corners until they are up to speed (remember they had no training camp to learn the D scheme) poor coaching would not see a steady improvement with developing players. Poor coaching, we would see blow outs and the games would not be competitive. Poor coaching would be players giving up and not playing for their coach. We have seen none of that. quite the opposite.

Ok so to your point about the O. I'm going to use the Rams game as an example. Russ missed the bomb to Metcalf and the pass to Dallas he was short of both those passes never mind the PI non call. Both those receivers were wide open if Russ hit them in stride both those plays are a TD's or huge gainers that change the outcome of the game, and we are having a very different conversation right now.

The question is, was the offense poorly coached? Is It Carrolls fault that those two defining plays were not executed?
Well... from what I can see the O line gave Wilson enough time to make the plays... they had the right play call because both receivers were open. Wilson just missed them... pure and simple. That has been the story the last 6 games. Wilson isn't right yet and we all know that because we have seen Wilson hit those plays 99.9% of the time for the last 9 years.

So now the question becomes Did Carroll let Wilson come back to early and is that his fault? This is a great question and one that is VERY difficult to answer with the information we have.

Looking at it from Carrolls point of view it's an extremely difficult decision. Your QB is telling you he feels fine and is ready to go. From what Carroll is saying Wilson was not missing throws in practice (can't really confirm that.) according to Carroll the Dr said that Wilson was ready to play. So, with the information we have assuming it's accurate and truthful, I don't why that should be held against Carroll.

Ok... Let's look at Geno. Did Geno do an adequate job as a backup QB? Vs the Rams, The D made the stop it needed to make to put the team in position to win the game. Geno was good enough to put the Hawks in position to win the game. He was making the game winning drive when he threw a pick. Again, If you look at the play there was a PI no call that was completely obvious. But even if you look past that no call it wasn't Geno's fault that Lockett "Slipped" the pass was where it was supposed to be. It wasn't poor coaching because they had the right play called and the team was totally competitive against one of the best teams in football with a backup QB. It was an unfortunate missed call that made the difference in a close division rival game.

Geno vs the Steelers. Geno played well brought the team back to over time. He played well throughout the game. In over time he was stripped of the ball and the Hawks lost the game that one was on Geno.

Vs the Saints the game was lost on a extremely windy day to 2 missed FG's. Geno played ok not great... the Hawks had trouble late with the Saints D line.

and then Geno vs Jacksonville, he tore it up, so he lost 2 1/4 out of 3 games

So, I don't see horrible play by Geno. I think he did his job. he wasn't lights out, but his play wasn't the reason the Hawks lost most of those games. Yes, he could have played better but was it poor coaching? I don't think so from my perspective.

So now the question is should Pete have benched Wilson and played Geno. Is that the decision that doomed the Hawks season? Really hard to say. I don't know. I don't think anybody could say how Geno would have played. But the one thing I do know that if Geno didn't play well, they would have said Carroll should have played Wilson... So, it's kind of a double-edged sword.

Let's talk about the O line.

The O line has not performed at a Pro bowl level. that's just a fact. But they are NOT as bad as people say they are. the o line has been consistently progressing

The truth is every single one of those O linemen have been dealing with injury at one point or another during this season... Thats just part of the game but if you look around the league the really good O lines are the ones that have not had injury issues the whole season. An O line needs to play together consistently to create continuity...the Seahawks have not had that luxury... So, the question is, was it coaching that created the issues on the O line?

What do we know?

We know that the O line has been getting better slowly through the progression of the season as apparent of the last 3 games. We know that the Hawks have coached up players like Ethan Pocic and Jake Curhan that have performed admirably. We know that when the Hawks are playing their starting lineup, they are much better. we know that the Hawks have given up more sacks than anyone in the NFL. We know that the Hawks have played teams that have some of the best D lines in the NFL and still remained competitive. Rams, Saints, 49ers, Cards, Steelers, Packers, WFT.

Regardless of injury it is an area that needs to improve but i don't believe this unit is poorly coached I just think they don't have the depth they need. If they were poorly coached there would not be improvement.

So, in my mind I don't see this team as poorly coached, and they should not fire Pete.

I realize you are ready for a new coach. I do not see how a new coach would have made this season a winning season. I just don't. I think there were just unfortunate things that happened that were out of control of the head coach

Would a first-round pick and a third-round pick have changed this season? Would those picks have equaled or surpassed JA play? I don't think so not in my opinion. as it takes time for even High round draft picks to understand and grow into their roles.


LTH

No snowy day here on the dry side. We rarely have a white Christmas in the Tri Cities and can go all season with just a few inches of snow.

You said a whole lot in your previous comments so please don't expect me to match them in mine. I get the sense that we're each making circular arguments.

First of all, the JA trade. Yes, the jury is still out. There's the possibility that his shoulder permanently heals, Pete finally figures out how to use him in a manner that will revolutionize our defense, and we win the Lombardi with JA being named DPOY. That's what it would take for this trade to pay for itself. But the possibility of that happening is about the same as our making the playoffs this season. JA injured the same shoulder at the end of last season and had surgery on it. I'm no medical expert, but that doesn't sound very good for a full recovery, more like a chronic problem that will never be right, especially given the position he plays.

Secondly Geno. I agree with you that he didn't play all that badly. I don't think we can lay the Rams game on him. He came in off the bench trailing one of the best teams in the league after not having the advantage of working with the first unit throughout the week. The Steelers and Saints losses are both on him. He didn't play well enough to win, committing a fatal turnover in OT of one game and completing barely 50% of his passes in the other. IMO with a healthy Russell we likely win one but not both of those two.

As far as Pete's decision to go with Russell following his return from IR, I think I answered that question adequately in another thread and see no benefit in repeating it here.

The OL has always been a weakness of Pete Carroll-coached teams. As much grief as I've given him for the JA trade, an even worse one IMO was the Jimmy Graham deal where we not only gave up a first round pick, we traded a Pro Bowl center that at 29 years old was in the prime of his career without a viable plan to replace him for a player that did not fit our scheme. As an inline tight end, Graham was a soft blocker playing on a line that had its difficulties in pass protection where the tight end is frequently held in to supplement pass protection and in an offense that had a run first philosophy. It shows just how little appreciation Pete has for the OL. Yes, Solari has done better than Cable has at utilizing the talent he's been given, but since his arrival in 2017, Pete hasn't been giving him much to work with. If you need evidence, compare the draft selections we've dedicated to the OL over the past 4 drafts with the previous 4 we had with Cable as our OL coach.

My summary of this season is that with a completely healthy Russell, we likely win enough games to get a wild card berth but we wouldn't have beaten any of the likely division champs (Packers, Bucs, Cowboys, or Rams) and like last season, would have been one and done. Russell had not been playing consistently well before his injury, completing a league worst 30% of his passes on 3rd downs and since his return, continues to make bad decisions that have nothing to do with his injured finger. Since midway through the 2020 season, I haven't seen anything out of Russell that would cause me to feel that he would have made up enough of a difference this season to turn us from a last place 5-9 team into a SB contender. Russell needs either a completely different system with us or a different location with another team if he is to re-invigorate his career, and I'm sure that's exactly what's going through his mind.

I started out this season saying those kinds of results, a one and done performance in the playoffs, which in my estimation is what would have happened had everything gone right, are no longer enough to justify staying the course with Pete. I have seen absolutely nothing this season that would make me change my opinion of us treading water, no longer improving, season after season of middle of the road .500ish teams good enough to make the playoffs in a very liberal seeding system that rewards mediocre teams but not good enough to challenge for a conference championship. I see no logic in repeating the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

But what are we talking about? We are talking about If PC deserves to be fired.. and so that breaks down into several different catagory's... the main two we have been talking about is coaching and trades.

You have named two trades. I agree that they paid to much for JA IMO. that doesn't mean that he is not going to develop into a player that dominates at his position. I have already stated the reasons why he has not shown his full potential, but you didn't address what I was saying about the scheme not being opened up enough to take advantage of his skill sets.

You went back to his injury and the price they paid for him. well... It seems to me he doesn't have a significant injury history when they traded for him. So, I'm not quite sure how that relates to the trade being a mistake on Petes part as it's not Pete's fault he got hurt... injury is part of the game.

I was also not in favor of the jimmy graham trade, I thought that was lame. But I was in favor of the Diggs trade and I was in favor of the Dunlap trade... so yes, they have gambled and made some mistakes, but they have also made some really good trades just like every other organization in football.

Ill leave it there rather than write a book


LTH

 

[Seahawkfan80]

LTH and Riverdog....I liked the discussion. Thank you.

The only thing I could comment about is the lack of ability to practice due to "covid" protocols. That personal interaction would have been better for some of the offensive sets and defensive sets to jell. OTAs and Preseason helps in this regard a lot.

But as I said, I liked the discussion.

Olyhawk.......you are correct if I got the right person....our entertainment value was stolen. The game was not completely stolen, but our value was. That is the problem I saw.

Since I dont get the game on tv, I shall be playing a movie for the gametime. I may tune into the discussion...or not. I dunno.

Fan80