Seahawks Secondary vs Patriots Secondary

[JustTheTip]

If I were rating/comparing DB personnel:
- Sherman's great, but Revis is a better all around corner
- I'm not sold on Browner's penchant for penalties, I'd probably take Maxwell
- you'll scream about this, but I'm not trading Devin McCourty for Earl Thomas, no way no how
- Chancellor gets the nod over Patrick Chung
- nickel: Arrington's really good, but I know Lane is good too. Toss up.

On pure man to man talent, a small edge to Seattle probably. But for disguising coverages and confusing QB's, the Pats have the edge there.

Haha. Thomas and Sherman are so much better than McCourty and Revis. It's not even close. Sherman would never get toasted by 35 year old Steve Smith.

Disagree. Revis can play anywhere on the field, can shut down a primary weapon wherever he lines up. Patriots can scheme Sherman out of play by lining up their targets on the other side. Revis is also stickier and better at getting through traffic. Where Sherman is great is his length and ability to take away deep routes, but Pats don't throw deep.

I'm not saying McCourty is better than Thomas, but I prefer McCourty for us. They're a lot closer than you think. McCourty is a former CB, great tackler, great positional safety, doesn't drop INT's..

Arrington is a slot corner, actually our fastest CB, but not that great on the outside where he was forced to play the last time we faced you a few years back. But what I've seen of Lane, he's pretty good too.

Chancellor is the x factor, he makes a lot of big plays. Just not sure how he'll play into this game plan. He's 30 lbs lighter than Gronk and 2" shorter, and Gronkowski runs like a beast, so not the normal intimidation factor there. Edelman is too tricky to get hit hard by him, but God help Amendola if he runs into Kam.

A key guy for the Patriots is LaFell. I could see him being a tough cover for Maxwell. He's been dinged up but he'll be at full strength in 2 weeks. He's 6'3", fearless and physical.

Go ahead and scheme around Sherman just like the Packers did in week 1. In fact, that is exactly what Pete wants.

Yeah, the Broncos didn't really throw deep much in the Super Bowl last year, how did that turn out for them?

 

[bigskydoc]

Listen, I don't think we're actually disagreeing about much here. I do think your defense isn't quite as good as it was a year ago, and with some of your DLine/pass rush out, that's not a controversial statement.

Not controversial, certainly debatable. The stats don't bear out a big drop in run defense, in fact quite the opposite (NE numbers thrown in just because)

Per ESPN
This year, Hawks 3rd in run defense. Last year 7th
This year Hawks 1st in pass defense. Last year 1st.
NE this year 9th against the run, 17th in passing defense.

By DVOA
This year Hawks 2nd in run defense. Last year 7th
This year Hawks 3rd in pass defense. Last year 1st
Overall defensive DVOA 1st both years
NE this year 14th against the run and 12th in pass defense, 11th overall.


So unless there was an overwhelming, league wide drop in offensive quality and production, it is hard to argue that the Hawks defense is worse this year than last, against the run, against the pass, or overall.

Since this is a thread on the secondaries, I will point out that a lot of the reason for this is that Seattle's secondary has improved on their run defense this year. The run defense was a big question going into the season due to personnel changes on the line. Those concerns proved to be unfounded when our starters and backups stepped up in a big way. Injuries have now depleted the line and do seem to have decreased the overall quality of our d-line play against the run, but the secondary picked up the slack and then some.

The biggest things I saw vs Green Bay were the time that Rodgers had, the number of times receivers were free, and Lacy running over people. You didn't see those things as much last year.

Um, yes you actually did, in fact, see QBs with a lot of time and open receivers as much last year. (At least you would have if you had watched our games.) What you didn't see (last year or this year) was QBs and receivers able to do much with that time and openness. We give up pretty significant completion percentages and did so last year (61% this year 59% last year), but that didn't translate into yards, points, or wins (2970 yds (6.3 YPA) 2014 vs 2752 yds (5.8 YPA) 2013).

I get the sense that you probably watched the Superb Owl and that is your metric. That was one game. One amazing, fabulous, everything came together at just the right time game. To compare this year's D to last year's D, you have to look at the entire season. In that light, they are pretty close with the overall edge going to this year's D if you buy the stats.

As for Lacy running all over us? Please

Lacy vs Hawks in NFCCG 21 rushes for 73 yards (3.48 YPC). Longest 13 yards.
Lacy vs Pats 21 rushes for 98 yards (4.67 YPC). Longest 24 yards.
Lacy on the season 246 rushes for 1,139 yards (4.63 YPC) Longest 44 yards.

Yes, they held in the rz, but on the other hand Rodgers was hurt and you were at home.

Rodgers looked pretty good on his 12 yard scamper and never looked troubled moving around in the pocket. He had a nagging injury, but clearly nothing significant enough to put him off of his game. We played at home last year too. What's the point?

Hawks were extremely lucky to win, on a couple of ultra-rare special teams plays.

Absolutely agree that we were lucky last week. It is amazing how the best teams seem to routinely be more lucky than the other teams. As a NE fan, you should know a lot about this.

The NE defense gives up a lot of yards and can look pretty porous at times, so far from perfect. But they're not playing as good an offense as Seattle's D has to face either. NE was #1 in the league in point differential for the year.

In that regard our defenses are similar. See the record setting game that Manning had in last year's Superb Owl for example.

As for offensive quality... Well, we just shut down the #1 offense in the league last week. Yes, it was an ugly win because of some offensive miscues on our part (miscues that won't happen in AZ BTW), but the defense shut down GB.

You have yet to play a running game as good as us this year. You have definitely played some teams with better passing games than us.

We have played 3 of the 4 teams who have a better passing game than you and went 3 and 1 in those games. Your rushing attack is pretty average and we have faced much better rushing teams.

Overall our offensive DVOA is one spot higher than yours. So, in fact, your defense will be facing off against an offense that is just as good. We just do it in a different way.

I do admire Wilson, he's very dangerous and a challenge to contain. But he looked very human last Sunday against a D that's similar to NE's.

All QBs look human at times. Brady as well. The great ones overcome and pull wins seemingly out of nowhere. Brady has done it. Wilson has done it. Luck... well maybe sometime. Wilson looked absolutely amazing in the last 4 minutes of the game. He overcame and found a way to win. The Pats won't have the luxury of all the early game miscues (largely weather related) that GB enjoyed.

There's a lot of interesting aspects to this game. I also think the fan bases and media of each team don't know too much about the other, which adds to the intrigue.

On this we can agree. Can't wait. It is going to be a great game. (although I do think that we know a bit more about the Pats than your side knows about us. We've been force fed the Pats for years and you have only had to be force fed us for the last 12 months.)


- bsd RPA

 

[camdawg]

Revis is exceptional against the run, as good as any corner.

The Hawks peaked a year ago, that was obvious the last couple of weeks. Still good and dangerous, but not the team they were in late 2012 and last season.

Pats and Belichick play a different game. They will confuse Wilson just like they confused Luck, who is a better QB. It's a huge part of how they win. Wilson won't know what he's seeing and will make mistakes.

LOL at Revis being a good run defending corner, my goodness.

We last faced Darrelle in the 2013 Tampa at Seattle game. We certainly didn't test him in the air much. But we picked on him relentlessly in the run game, running to his side as much as we could. Dude is a much softer run defender than any DB on the Seahawk roster.

You must've missed our late regular season run this year. You guys were playing really good football yourselves, but we had the best partial season defensive run since 1976 Pittsburgh.

No defense is as confusing as Arizona. As a Pats fan, you know that, as you lost to them in your house when you last faced them. You'll have no blitzes Russell hasn't seen before, and you'll get zone read to death if you get too cute.

 

[TAB420]

Revis plays both sides of the field, he can play in the slot where ever. They put Revis on the other team's best WR and shadow him the entire game. Sherman only plays one side of the field, his strong side.

Revis can play anywhere on the field, can shut down a primary weapon wherever he lines up.

Now you are just showing your ignorance. It is fine that you don’t watch enough Hawks football to know that this isn’t correct, but don’t come on our board spouting ignorant statements about what our players do and don’t do. Sherman can and has shadowed the primary receiver. He did so against Dez Bryant this year when Maxwell went out with injury and our backups were already out with injury. The result? Bryant was targeted 6 times out of 22 passing plays. He came away with 2 receptions for 39 yards and he needed his A game to do that.


The simple fact of the matter is we don’t need him to shadow the primary receiver because our other CBs really are that good, so we scheme to just let Sherman shut down one side of the field. What does it say about the quality of your other corners that you need Revis to shadow the primary when he lines up on their side of the field? Our other corners are so good, we don't have to worry about shadowing with Sherman.

While we are on the subject, how good is Revis at stopping the run?

I'd also add that if this conversation occurred a year ago, it would be a different conversation because the Hawks did look like the 85 Bears then. But not now, not after the way Green Bay moved the ball the other day.

Come again????

Seattle 28 def Packers 22
Rodgers 19/34 (56%) for 178 yds (5.24 YPA/ 9.37 YPC) 1TD 2 INT

Patriots 21 lose to Packers 26
Rodgers 24/38 (63%) for 368 yds (9.68 YPA/ 15.33 YPC) 2 TDs 1 INT

I specifically left this game out of the stats post because it made the Hawks look too good. It was a flukey game with the weird weather and I didn't think it was fair to the Patriots to keep it in the stats mix.

You clearly haven't watched much Hawks football this year. We are just as good if not better than last year. The only drop off we had was when multiple key members went out at the same time. Even with the backups we were almost as good as last year.

On pure man to man talent, a small edge to Seattle probably. But for disguising coverages and confusing QB's, the Pats have the edge there.

That is where you are confused. Seattle does not disguise coverage. It is elegantly simple. They lineup and show the opposing team exactly what they are going to do. Then they do it. They have no need to disguise coverage and confuse QB’s because they execute better than anyone else in the league. Teams who lack the talent to do this have to resort to disguise and confusion because if they just lined up and played, they would get thrashed. So yes, one thing your guys are better at is disguise and confusion... because our guys simply don't need it.

- bsd

Lol... well 50 year old Patsie, looks like you'll be leaving this post a lot like the team you follow. Proven wrong and less air in your balls than when you started.

 

[Mick063]

It isn't even close.

Statistically, eye test, however you want to put it.

Not even close. Laugh at loud at the Pats fan trying to defend this here. Not going to waste the effort writing up a counter argument because he obviously hasn't watched much football, or if he has, he doesn't know what he is looking at.

A few of us were bewildered at how much that team overpaid for Browner.

If the PATs have the best QB, best tight end, best nose tackle, best secondary.....in the entire league, they are seriously not getting good coaching to underperform for such a super duper talented team. They should have boat raced the entire schedule with a squad of such supermen. Especially with that soft division they play in. The truth is they are not as good as their fans think they are. Especially the secondary.

 

[IrishNW]

The pats have a good secondary but comparing them to the LOB is laughable. Across the board Seattle wins hands down.

 

[tailgater]

The pats have a good secondary but comparing them to the LOB is laughable. Across the board Seattle wins hands down.

I can live with that. There is no more talented defense, especially the secondary, in the NFL this season.

I'm just happy the Pats finally have a secondary people aren't laughing at!

This is by far the best backfield the Pats have had since the 2004 team, and their best overall D since 2007.

Brady faced the LOB in 2012 and put up close to 400yds. If they had any semblance of a secondary at that time, they win by 20. Instead, All RW had to do was throw the ball deep and either hit a wide open receiver or draw a PI. I still have nightmares over that game!

 

[Seahwkgal]

The pats have a good secondary but comparing them to the LOB is laughable. Across the board Seattle wins hands down.

I can live with that. There is no more talented defense, especially the secondary, in the NFL this season.

I'm just happy the Pats finally have a secondary people aren't laughing at!

This is by far the best backfield the Pats have had since the 2004 team, and their best overall D since 2007.

Brady faced the LOB in 2012 and put up close to 400yds. If they had any semblance of a secondary at that time, they win by 20. Instead, All RW had to do was throw the ball deep and either hit a wide open receiver or draw a PI. I still have nightmares over that game!

Yeah, that LOB in 2012 WITH BROWNER!!!
He wouldn't even make this squad right now. Hence why he is on your squad, not ours anymore.

 

[hawks4thewin]

What's the health of Sherman and Thomas?

Status is probable, and their injuries were to their arms, not their legs. You better pray to all that is holy that your coach isn't scheming to exploit these injuries, because if he is, he will get burned badly. Richard's elbow is good enough to ruin your day. Tom Brady has played for several seasons with a shoulder injury. I think Earl Thomas will be just fine.

This is why they deflated the balls all season so brady had a ball that was a few onces lighter hahahah
Just kidding.. no no i'm not

 

[bobdigital]

Pats fan here and I have to say Seattle's DBs are better than ours generally.

IMO Revis > Sherman (barely), Maxwell > Browner, Arrington > Lane (barely), Thomas > McCourty, Kam >> Chung (this is the single biggest difference and really makes the argument clear to me. Chung is decent but Kam is one of the top 5 at his position.

However here is what we should be asking ourselves. Which secondary is going to be better on Sunday?

Honestly I don't know. Sherman and Thomas are banged up and how banged up they are could make this a draw or swing it to the Pats.

Sherman with 1 arm is clearly worse than Revis with 2. If Thomas' shoulder is going to bother him and effect him then isn't McCourty not an equal or better option perhaps?

We just do not know the extent of these injuries so it is hard to say. I mean with all do respect to guys like Maxwell, Lane and Kam it is those 2 guys that make that backfield what it is. Same for the Pats. Browner, Arrington and Chung are good players but it is Revis/McCourty that make everyone's job easier.

 

[RationalNiner]

Browner is a slow turd. He sucks. The only good corner the Pats have is Revis. Maxwell is much better than Browner.

Of course, it doesn't matter. The pats are going to get bullied this coming Sunday.

 

[bobdigital]

Browner is a slow turd. He sucks. The only good corner the Pats have is Revis. Maxwell is much better than Browner.

Of course, it doesn't matter. The pats are going to get bullied this coming Sunday.

I would agree Maxwell is better than Browner but to say Browner sucks is a pretty homer statement. No NFL talent scout would say that. He has certain limits on the things he does well but so do most players.

 

[RationalNiner]

Browner is a slow turd. He sucks. The only good corner the Pats have is Revis. Maxwell is much better than Browner.

Of course, it doesn't matter. The pats are going to get bullied this coming Sunday.

I would agree Maxwell is better than Browner but to say Browner sucks is a pretty homer statement. No NFL talent scout would say that. He has certain limits on the things he does well but so do most players.

Not a homer statement. I'm a niner fan

Browner sucks, big slow turd.

I will agree and say Revis is better than Sherman. He basically runs the receivers routes for them.

 

[blazen2392]

Browner is a slow turd. He sucks. The only good corner the Pats have is Revis. Maxwell is much better than Browner.

Of course, it doesn't matter. The pats are going to get bullied this coming Sunday.

I would agree Maxwell is better than Browner but to say Browner sucks is a pretty homer statement. No NFL talent scout would say that. He has certain limits on the things he does well but so do most players.

Maxwell is better, but Browner is all right. He was extremely physical here in Seattle and brought an attitude to the secondary, but way to liable in pass coverage especially against speedy and nimble wide outs. I'm sure New England have been introduced to his love of pass interference as well. He has been slowly declining with age as well. He's not a bad cornerback. I would call him a very physical cornerback with average coverage skills. maxwell is a less physical cornerback with above average coverage skills.