RW passing to the short middle

[lobohawk]

The height "issue" has been overemphasized. It only becomes an issue as the pocket collapses so he only has a few feet on each side. Basically within arms reach of the DL. You saw Rivers making plays when with Bennett's hand on his shoulder. Russell can't do this, but players like Big Ben, Rivers, Luck, etc can.

For Wilson it seems to be more of a decision making process mixed in with his growing experience (years 1-5 vs 5-10). Most of his missing WRs looks like he's waiting for something bigger/safer or he's looking at the wrong WR (meaning most covered and not correctly pre snap reading). So this isn't an issue that can't improve, he just needs to keep working on it.


Disclaimer: been watching Wilson since he played at NC State, so I know I can be a bit of homer. In spite of that I recognize that he still has plenty of areas to improve on. Saw him carry NC State by throwing a lot and the usual scrambling. Yet remember that he set an NCAA record for most passes without an INT (risk adverse). At Wisconsin he had a huge line and strong running game, such that he could be the most efficient in the country while putting up if numbers.

 

[Bobblehead]

I don't think it's due to height I seem to remember him hitting just fine over the middle at WIsconsin with a line that was bigger than what he has now. Most likely it's just Bevell's route trees and the fact that until now he hasn't had a TE whose hands he can really trust since Zach. I mean Luke dropped another in the endzone vs the Rams so I can understand the reluctance to go to him on a possible contested catch.

Can't be, he threw to Lockette in a crucial situation once and Lockette is probably the worst WR we have.

 

[hawkfannj]

Stats are for losers :sarcasm_on: :stirthepot:

 

[Laloosh]

Just out curiosity, I checked the numbers for Luck and Newton.

Luck has a rating of 97, comp% of 62% and threw over the middle about 17% of the time.

Newton has a rating of 85.4, comp% of 66% and threw over the middle about 14.4% of the time.

 

[Seahawkfan80]

Just as a thought here, I think our route trees pretty much force the outside throw. Once in a while you see a crossing pattern but they are few and far between. In a ball control atmosphere which we have, if there is a decent opening in the middle, R W is probably on board with "I can run this for a first and keep the ball in our hands" mantra. Sometimes we go for that kind of play rather than the big downfield play that could score. Just a thought.

 

[hawk45]

I subscribe to davidseven's theory that within the stats, the number of attempts tell the tale of a QB who isn't comfortable making those throws with regularity and does so only when he can see it clearly.
Think it was the second preseason game, archer had a series where the defense was giving him short routes and he released the ball instantly and chewed them up. I remember thinking I don't recall Russ ever operating in rhythm like that to the short or short middle ,
releasing it on time, closest might be in the two minute drill.
Then the opposing defense tightened up and archer promptly displayed a lack of deep accuracy that killed the drive, so this isn't to say Russ is inferior.
But dicing up the middle with regularity, getting it out quick to mitigate the OL, the way Brady, Rodgers, or even Alex smith can do, that doesn't seem to be in his game yet and may never be.
He seemed to be willing to throw to prich over the middle but even those throws were hold-your-breath too-high zingers the wr had to stretch for. He just lacks the ability to quick see and easily drop it in that area.

 

[mikeak]

Great post one stat that would help it would be number of passing attempts overall during the same time period. Reason would be that if example Rodgers throws twice as many passes as RW and twice as many over the middle then there is a 1:1 ratio and RW goes over the middle as much as they do compared to his overall passing numbers

Right now to me the numbers simply indicate that he is good at throwing over the middle

Updated OP with % of total attempts in the same column as attempts. Thanks for the suggestion and it does show that Wilson has the lowest of the 10 with Kaepernick being a close 2nd.

Not sure what can be taken from it other than what Scotte mentioned in that we don't exactly run as many routes through there.

Thanks!

I started looking at adding it yesterday but didn't have time. Adding in the percentages like you did is much cleaner than what I was thinking.

Great post leading to good discussion. These kind of posts is why I really like this forum.

Thanks

 

[Siouxhawk]

Seems like "route trees" is now the trendy catch phrase for those who really don't know what they're talking about to use as a hook to drop their idea of knowledge on. The Madden influence again, I suspect.

 

[Smellyman]

Seems like "route trees" is now the catch phrase for those who really don't know what they're talking about to use as a hook to drop their idea of knowledge on. The Madden influence again, I suspect.

Let's talk about 3 tech and 5 techs too. LOL

 

[oldhawkfan]

How to solve Russell's height issue...longer cleats!

 

[BASF]

Just as a thought here, I think our route trees pretty much force the outside throw. Once in a while you see a crossing pattern but they are few and far between. In a ball control atmosphere which we have, if there is a decent opening in the middle, R W is probably on board with "I can run this for a first and keep the ball in our hands" mantra. Sometimes we go for that kind of play rather than the big downfield play that could score. Just a thought.

There is a lot of truth to this post. The most telling thing for me has been several times Wilson has ignored a deep post that comes open late specifically to Kearse and just runs for the first down. The fact is Pete's teams have always avoided throwing across the middle back to USC. The chances of turnover at least double just by having more bodies in the middle. Playing the percentages has always been one of Pete's stronger traits. Remember that Jackson did not throw over the middle much during his year starting and that Hass didn't throw across the middle nearly as much as he did under Holmgren or Mora.

 

[BASF]

Seems like "route trees" is now the trendy catch phrase for those who really don't know what they're talking about to use as a hook to drop their idea of knowledge on. The Madden influence again, I suspect.

The problem is that the route combinations have been suspect for a long time. A lot of us who do have knowledge have been questioning how he does not design things to create holes in the defense. Most of the routes are designed to have your receiver beat their man one on one. Unfortunately, our receivers are suspect at this and have been his entire tenure here.

 

[randomation]

I don't think it's due to height I seem to remember him hitting just fine over the middle at WIsconsin with a line that was bigger than what he has now. Most likely it's just Bevell's route trees and the fact that until now he hasn't had a TE whose hands he can really trust since Zach. I mean Luke dropped another in the endzone vs the Rams so I can understand the reluctance to go to him on a possible contested catch.

Can't be, he threw to Lockette in a crucial situation once and Lockette is probably the worst WR we have.

That was also a no read pass, and we all know how it worked out ukeface:

 

[Laloosh]

Seems like "route trees" is now the trendy catch phrase for those who really don't know what they're talking about to use as a hook to drop their idea of knowledge on. The Madden influence again, I suspect.

The problem is that the route combinations have been suspect for a long time. A lot of us who do have knowledge have been questioning how he does not design things to create holes in the defense. Most of the routes are designed to have your receiver beat their man one on one. Unfortunately, our receivers are suspect at this and have been his entire tenure here.

Be awesome if some of you guys would throw a post together to illustrate this for those of us who don't understand it. Not because we're lazy but because you love us

 

[SalishHawkFan]

I don't have the time to look over everything you posted but I always get frustrated with Wilson's lack of attempts over the middle, seems like everything is to the outside, then you watch Brady and Rogers just check it to a TE or RB over the middle with ease for an quick 5-8 yards. I do think it's largely because of his height. Frustrating to watch sometimes.

We don't throw over the middle because that is a great area for turnovers. Just look at what happened in the NFCCG: Wilson over the middle to Kearse cost us dearly. This is part of Petes philosophy and not something to get frustrated with, just something to accept as part of the package with Pete.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Seems like "route trees" is now the trendy catch phrase for those who really don't know what they're talking about to use as a hook to drop their idea of knowledge on. The Madden influence again, I suspect.

The problem is that the route combinations have been suspect for a long time. A lot of us who do have knowledge have been questioning how he does not design things to create holes in the defense. Most of the routes are designed to have your receiver beat their man one on one. Unfortunately, our receivers are suspect at this and have been his entire tenure here.

Be awesome if some of you guys would throw a post together to illustrate this for those of us who don't understand it. Not because we're lazy but because you love us

To be fair, the simplistic route tree notion got started by Brock or on Brocks show. There were people who DO know about the complexity of route trees who were commenting on it. I think Cosell did too, but I may be mistaken. This all happend several years ago.

 

[Laloosh]

Seems like "route trees" is now the trendy catch phrase for those who really don't know what they're talking about to use as a hook to drop their idea of knowledge on. The Madden influence again, I suspect.

The problem is that the route combinations have been suspect for a long time. A lot of us who do have knowledge have been questioning how he does not design things to create holes in the defense. Most of the routes are designed to have your receiver beat their man one on one. Unfortunately, our receivers are suspect at this and have been his entire tenure here.

Be awesome if some of you guys would throw a post together to illustrate this for those of us who don't understand it. Not because we're lazy but because you love us

To be fair, the simplistic route tree notion got started by Brock or on Brocks show. There were people who DO know about the complexity of route trees who were commenting on it. I think Cosell did too, but I may be mistaken. This all happend several years ago.

Cosell has discussed it on his podcast with Ferar but I'm a 6th grader in 12th grade Spanish when I listen to some of this stuff.

 

[Anthony!]

The thing everyone needs to remember is PC is a low risk coach, He does not want TOs, throwing over the middle has a higher risk factor, see NFCCG and Kearse, If those 2 that went off his hands happens at the sidelines they are incomplete. SO as the number show Wilson can do it, but it is not done a lot as it is counter the PC plan.

 

[Largent80]

Laloosh my friend, maybe your best post ever.

 

[Laloosh]

Laloosh my friend, maybe your best post ever.

That's not saying much but I do appreciate it.