Pete or Holmgren

hawksincebirth

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Fade":53v92vor said:
Ad Hawk":53v92vor said:
Fade":53v92vor said:
Ad Hawk":53v92vor said:
You misread me. I said he never would have created those rosters in the first place.

If he inherited them? Well, I have my doubts about any coach willingly leaving with that roster. But say Pete died and Holmgren took over... it's hard to know, but he would never have stood for our O-line and running game, so he may have gotten rid of some D in order to get some O.

Line them up

'12-'16

Pete Carroll wins 1 superbowl.

Now give Holmgren the same shot.

How many does Holmgren win?

Doubt he wins more than one, if that. His approach to the offense would never allow Russ to scramble the way he did. He was too straight-laced. He wouldn't have known how to make our disfunctional offense work the way Pete does. This roster was made by Pete to match his game philosophy, not MH's.

Too many people here overvalued the past roster thinking we should have been SB winners 3-4 years straight. That's ludicrous, and only wishful thinking. We had a good roster, but it wasn't that much better than the next best rosters; just stacked in different areas. Holmgren was a good coach, but didn't even have his own team ready to beat the Refs in his only SB with us.

1. See Brett Favre under Holmgren. Russell Wilson would do just fine in a more well run structured offense, and then being able to still scramble around and make plays when necessary. Favre did it all the time.

2. The offense wouldn't be dysfunctional if Holmgren ran it. With Lynch & Russell they would be one of the best. Holmgren was one of the best Red Zone playcallers in NFL history. No 1 yard line shenanigans to say the least.

3 '12-'16 is 5 seasons. '12, '13, '14, '15, '16. The Seahawks were #1 in DVOA a record 4 straight seasons. The roster was loaded.

Pete underachieved.
Russ would win mvp under holm no doubt, he would be top 3 rn
 

hawksincebirth

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pittpnthrs":1203slm2 said:
Sgt. Largent":1203slm2 said:
IMO Pete is a far more philisophically innovative coach than Holmgren ever was.

Wow, not me. Having an offense that does nothing for 3 quarters while relying on your defense to bail you out time and time again isnt a startling strategy in my opinion. Thankfully for Pete he had the defense to do it. He doesnt anymore so lets see how this year goes.

Again, give both coaches equal teams with equal talent and Holmgren would bury Carroll. Carroll needs top tier talent to succeed. Holmgren did more with less.


He’s got to be kidding , west coast offense beats sandlot football cmon
 

hawksincebirth

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Sgt. Largent":1aommgw6 said:
pittpnthrs":1aommgw6 said:
Sgt. Largent":1aommgw6 said:
IMO Pete is a far more philisophically innovative coach than Holmgren ever was.

Wow, not me. Having an offense that does nothing for 3 quarters while relying on your defense to bail you out time and time again isnt a startling strategy in my opinion. Thankfully for Pete he had the defense to do it. He doesnt anymore so lets see how this year goes.

Again, give both coaches equal teams with equal talent and Holmgren would bury Carroll. Carroll needs top tier talent to succeed. Holmgren did more with less.

Carrol CREATED that top talent using late rounders, practice squad players and UFA's.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, Carrol is an innovator in how to scout, mine talent, coach them up and get the very best out of them.

Holmgren was a great QB evaluator and developer, but that was about it. He needed Walter Jones, Hutchinson, Sean Alexander, Trufant, Tobek and numerous other high picks to finally get to a SB, and lose.

How can you say Holmgren would have done better with equal talent, when he could never have drafted and developed the talent Carroll has. He didn't have the vision, patience or philosophy to do so.

So holmgren gets zero credit for San Fran dynasty ? 2 sb wins as o.c.
Brett Favre? Developing Steve young ?
The clink is the house holgrem friggin built
Lofa tatupu?
Trufant?
Building one of the best lines of all time
MVP running back ?
Ncaa trophy BYU
Joe Montana’s best 2 seasons (also mvp years)
This debate is closer then you CHOOSE TO BELIEVE
 

hawksincebirth

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purpleneer":3gyaj4kx said:
Nowhere but Seattle would someone be so revered for accomplishing so little as Holmgren did. 10 years, one time being close. Came into a much better situation than people think and much better than Pete did, took 5 years to be more than one game better than what got Erickson fired (in fact losing record through 4 seasons and worse than Erickson's combined record), no playoff wins through 6, 23-25 in three years after SB loss. I sure remember some blown leads because he was ok with 3-and-outs despite having offense as the team's strength.
People think Carroll's teams underachieved more than Holmgren's did? Wow.
Top 10 most disrespectful comment I’ve read here ?? You new ?
 

NINEster

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Hawker8989":76apq4ft said:
seahawkfreak":76apq4ft said:
Sorry, Pete got us a Bowl, no other questions can be asked.

Well when I look at the talent both coaches had, it's not an outlandish question. Mike didn't have the better QB ( Matt was damm good though). Didn't have the offense.

Holmgren had the better QB and an overall wash at RB (esp. considering OL), but definitely nowhere near the defense.
 

NINEster

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Pete was a very good DC in SF, but Holmgren did elevate the Walsh WCO under Montana from very good to glorious.

I'd say Holmgren here.
 

hawksincebirth

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purpleneer":24057h5c said:
KiwiHawk":24057h5c said:
purpleneer":24057h5c said:
KiwiHawk":24057h5c said:
Jerramy Stevens. I blame this one less on Holmgren than I do on Itula Mili. Mili was supposed to be the superstar tight end, but was injured most of the time. Then he had one decent season, so he held out the next year for more money. With Mili unreliable and a gaping hole at tight end, Holmgren pulled the trigger on Stevens, who was either going to be a super star or a head case, and turned out to be the latter. Had Mili not been such a flake or had Shurmur been there to advise, we would have drafted Ed Reed, and possibly launched a dynasty.
Whatever created the TE need, it existed. He went into the draft needing a starter there, had a preference (Graham), and missed him by trading down. And I won't say it's certain we don't draft Reed, but it's certainly wishful to assume we do and his career is as good on a team built extremely differently than those Ravens.
The Galloway part is true; he got lucky *allas gave that gift for the name, but he also didn't exactly take full advantage of the abundance of good first round picks.
I also doubt he ever would have truly allowed any sort of "defense-first" team building. Losing Shurmur hurt, but thinking he puts a bunch of resources to the D and makes a successful or even decent O on the cheap seems fantastical.
Actually the TE in that draft was Shockey, and with him gone, Daniel Graham and Jerramy Stevens were a coin flip so it wasn't worth standing pat since one would be available if we traded down. For what it's worth they had similar careers as well, which proves the coin flip but also shows neither were worthy of a first-round selection.

It's wishful thinking about Ed Reed, although I called it at the time because Reed was the reason for the success of Buchanan and Rumph (Miami's corners) who were also taken in the first. As we know, having an Earl Thomas can make your cornerbacks look amazing. Take them out of Seattle (Browner, Maxwell, etc.) and they don't look as good.

I disagree about the first round picks from the Galloway trade. While one of them eventually became Koren Robinson, who I grant was a sputter at best, the other one was Shaun Alexander who became Seattle's only league MVP.

The guys we took with our regular picks, though one was a trade via Green Bay, were Chris McIntosh (neck injury kiled his career, so difficult to determine what sort of a pro he could have been), and Steve Hutchinson who is one of the best guards ever to play the game.

So we weren't exactly bad at first-round picks (on the offensive side of the ball anyway).
I'd take Graham over Stevens every time; reliability matters. Overall first-round performance, Holmy was 2 for 6 in 4 years and the latest selection was the trade-down spots of Stevens and the the 2 hits were the easiest decisions that Ruskell probably even makes.

Graham caught more balls , he was targeted more than Stevens (schemes) holm actually had a te that could chip block and actually be more of a Zach miller type
But Stevens was having a great first 3-4 seasons with more games actually played then jimmy graham .. 2 tds from Jimmy graham his first season lol, the lack of respect for holm in this thread is comical, they literally could call the clink the house holmgren built. He will be a HOF eventually.

... which is exactly why holm wins this strictly on x-o’s debate imo. There is a complete lack of how great a offensive mind mike was. We definitely do not lose to pats . Mike called his plays . He runs that in and actually has a line who can score from the one yard line. Alexa play Shawn Alexander highlights of mvp season.

The draft narrative mystique of Pete Carroll is way over rated
2010-2015 we HAVE 7-8 players that are on our roster from that HOME RUN PERIOD WHICH WAS REALLY ONLY 2 good drafts (russ, wags, kj, earl?, Britt, Lockett, Clark, ifedi.)
So we traded out of the first and got all those comp picks year after year. For 7-8 players, one of which a hof safety, who clearly wants out so bad he goes to and opposing coach and screams “come get me”
If you give credit for the build you must look at the fall
take a look at who we drafted or had and who we let go or lost
(Tate, okung, carp, sweezy, sherm, kam, Spencer ware, p rich, unger) ouch don’t we miss the days when all we had to worry about was if unger was gonna get hurt, or giacomini got a flag for being a dirt bag
Marshawn trade great +1
Avril +1
Bennett who we cut? For a kicker I believe coutu? He still in the league ?
Harvin trade -3 (Tate- 40$ mil guaranteed or something like that right ? Wrecked the team in my opinion
Graham trade -2 and very damning of someone, who? Drew brees as qb jimmy graham caught 99 balls one year ..99
The trade itself lost us unger ( who the kool aid crowd) claimed was banged up and damaged goods has missed I believe one game for the saints since the trade! (Or maybe2-3) excuse me I’m only posting from the hip here.
The lack of being able to use a weapon like jimmy graham is another -1, just pop the tape of New Orleans offense and repeat
Would holm have tried to make a glorified basketball player into Zach miller?

This is a long a I’m sure scrambled post, but this is nails look at our misses of pets tenure, we missed on guys who didn’t even sniff the league after we cut them. Like seriously bevell and cable get all the blame for the epic collapse of one of the best assembled teams of all time?? Your joking right?

Epic level roster moves and trades made and broke Pete’s career so far here in Seattle. I can atleast be honest and look at the facts... I’ve never liked pete, he can’t even give a straight answer. Reminds me of a politician or a vacuum salesman just me . I was wrong pete got one, epically and utterly lost one that will also tarnish this franchise for all time.

We will maybe never have an exact answer but the writing is on the wall for this run. If pete turns it around and wins I’ll admit I’m wrong but I don’t see it. Pete is too old and set in his ways. Or you believe Brian Schottenheimer, whose offenses in St. Louis regularly were horrible sans one semi good year from a rookie Sam Bradford. Rewatch the 2010 nfc play in game vs the rams where clipboard jesus got us to the playoffs at 7-9 .. I’ll cheat for you they scored 6 points in that game :0190l:

To each his own . This is nails

Pete got one ring, you can easily say we could have won russ’s rookie year , pats sb Lynch game and any subsequent chance at a 3 pete pun intended
This franchise should mirror the pats imho right now, pete should be grooming a successor and we should have some more damn trophies
Should be perennial contenders, we are about to experience mediocrity again. Then we will see who is a real fan
Op I apologize this is strictly not aimed at you
Nite company kick off tomorrow
 

adeltaY

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NINEster":3qrczili said:
Hawker8989":3qrczili said:
seahawkfreak":3qrczili said:
Sorry, Pete got us a Bowl, no other questions can be asked.

Well when I look at the talent both coaches had, it's not an outlandish question. Mike didn't have the better QB ( Matt was damm good though). Didn't have the offense.

Holmgren had the better QB and an overall wash at RB (esp. considering OL), but definitely nowhere near the defense.

What nonsense. Another troll saying Hass was better than Russ.
 

Milehighhawk

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The amount of self-delusion about Holmgren in this thread is hilarious. Yes, go ahead and circle jerk to imaginary scenarios to convince yourself that despite actual history and results he was better.
 

Sgt. Largent

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hawksincebirth":akli6vwx said:
Sgt. Largent":akli6vwx said:
pittpnthrs":akli6vwx said:
Sgt. Largent":akli6vwx said:
IMO Pete is a far more philisophically innovative coach than Holmgren ever was.

Wow, not me. Having an offense that does nothing for 3 quarters while relying on your defense to bail you out time and time again isnt a startling strategy in my opinion. Thankfully for Pete he had the defense to do it. He doesnt anymore so lets see how this year goes.

Again, give both coaches equal teams with equal talent and Holmgren would bury Carroll. Carroll needs top tier talent to succeed. Holmgren did more with less.

Carrol CREATED that top talent using late rounders, practice squad players and UFA's.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, Carrol is an innovator in how to scout, mine talent, coach them up and get the very best out of them.

Holmgren was a great QB evaluator and developer, but that was about it. He needed Walter Jones, Hutchinson, Sean Alexander, Trufant, Tobek and numerous other high picks to finally get to a SB, and lose.

How can you say Holmgren would have done better with equal talent, when he could never have drafted and developed the talent Carroll has. He didn't have the vision, patience or philosophy to do so.

So holmgren gets zero credit for San Fran dynasty ? 2 sb wins as o.c.
Brett Favre? Developing Steve young ?
The clink is the house holgrem friggin built
Lofa tatupu?
Trufant?
Building one of the best lines of all time
MVP running back ?
Ncaa trophy BYU
Joe Montana’s best 2 seasons (also mvp years)
This debate is closer then you CHOOSE TO BELIEVE

You missed the part where I said Holmgren was a great QB evaluator and developer..........and no, you don't get much credit for drafting guys like Trufant and Alexander in the first round when every other team had them on their board to as very talented at their position. Good job coach for drafting a 1st round RB and playing him!

Here's the fact, NO ONE'S developed more raw talent in either college or the pros than Pete. He might be the greatest of all time at developing and teaching raw talent.
 

mrt144

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purpleneer":2pcb38gf said:
The pro-Holmgren arguments here have to be classified as some combination of trolling and delusion at this point.

It's like pining for an ex when your current relationship is not so hot. In that frame of mind I get it - I've thought about people I've dated when times are rocky and how fun and fresh it was but then always arrive at the reason we parted ways.

But I also have a dating philosophy I nicked from my wife - "Date em till you hate em and never look back"
 

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hawksincebirth":2pgsvs1e said:
So holmgren gets zero credit for San Fran dynasty ? 2 sb wins as o.c.
Brett Favre? Developing Steve young ?
The clink is the house holgrem friggin built Wow. Stadium approval came in '97, but Holmgren came in '99 and gets credit for it? You tell me whether this is delusion or trolling.
Lofa tatupu? Not a Holmgren acquisition
Trufant? Not a Holmgren acquisition
Building one of the best lines of all time Big Walt not a Holmgren acquisition
MVP running back ?
Ncaa trophy BYU
Joe Montana’s best 2 seasons (also mvp years)
This debate is closer then you CHOOSE TO BELIEVE
 

Fade

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I'm not going to rank Pete Carroll over Holmgren because he assembled the most talented young roster the NFL has ever seen in 20 years. And then proceeds to mismanage and bumble around for several seasons, team gets blown up because the coach lost control of the whole situation, and now has to start over. That is the definition of underachieving.


When the documentary comes out for this era of Seahawks football. 30 for 30, or whatever. That is what it will be about. How Pete screwed it up.

Holmgren > Carroll.
 

hawksincebirth

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hawknation2018":138qmvff said:
Fade":138qmvff said:
Sgt. Largent":138qmvff said:
Pete hired Dan Quinn, so you're only helping the argument for Pete..........and the question was Best Hawk's Coach, so you can't include Holmgren's time in GB.

What has Pete Carroll done without Dan Quinn as his DC?

What he usually does. Underachieve.

Dan Quinn in his short head coaching career has done more without Pete Carroll, than what Pete Carroll has done in his long HC career without Dan Quinn.

That’s an incredibly small sample size. And it’s a red herring that distracts from the principal argument, which is whether Carroll or Holmgren was the better Seahawks HC. Clearly, Carroll was when you look at the objective facts.

The Seahawks led the NFL in scoring defense in 2015 without Quinn, just like they led the NFL in scoring defense in 2012 without Quinn.

Since 2015 (again, a small and arbitrary sample size that distracts from the real conversation), Carroll and Quinn have each made the playoffs twice, and Carroll has the slightly better winning percentage during that time frame. Atlanta regressed last season too, as the offense that led them to the Super Bowl fell off. The big difference is Carroll fired his underperforming OC, which should help improve the offense, while Quinn chose to keep Sarkisian this year.
So again this proves pete underachieving again best defense in league . Wasn’t 2015 russ best year was that the season him and db lit it up ! So how does this prove anything pete had the best roster in league and failed to win
 

hawksincebirth

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purpleneer":2bkxwva0 said:
hawksincebirth":2bkxwva0 said:
So holmgren gets zero credit for San Fran dynasty ? 2 sb wins as o.c.
Brett Favre? Developing Steve young ?
The clink is the house holgrem friggin built Wow. Stadium approval came in '97, but Holmgren came in '99 and gets credit for it? You tell me whether this is delusion or trolling.
Lofa tatupu? Not a Holmgren acquisition
Trufant? Not a Holmgren acquisition
Building one of the best lines of all time Big Walt not a Holmgren acquisition
MVP running back ?
Ncaa trophy BYU
Joe Montana’s best 2 seasons (also mvp years)
This debate is closer then you CHOOSE TO BELIEVE

Ok so holgrem wasn’t coaching in 2005 when lofa was selected and we went to the super bowl ? And wasn’t the coach in 2003 either .. are we talking Seahawks right ? And holmgren wasn’t the coach when we played at husky stadium ? 0/3 so far should I continue we’re u even alive during this timeframe. Pete had to be forced to draft russ by Schneider but he gets credit.. lol are you trolling bro
 

hawksincebirth

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Milehighhawk":ztdn2b96 said:
The amount of self-delusion about Holmgren in this thread is hilarious. Yes, go ahead and circle jerk to imaginary scenarios to convince yourself that despite actual history and results he was better.
Your crowd will circle jerk that we are super bowl bound... lol it’s over bro. Dynasty failed. Accept it pete will high tail after this season just like usc.
 

hawksincebirth

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Sgt. Largent":3kll6m7g said:
hawksincebirth":3kll6m7g said:
Sgt. Largent":3kll6m7g said:
pittpnthrs":3kll6m7g said:
Wow, not me. Having an offense that does nothing for 3 quarters while relying on your defense to bail you out time and time again isnt a startling strategy in my opinion. Thankfully for Pete he had the defense to do it. He doesnt anymore so lets see how this year goes.

Again, give both coaches equal teams with equal talent and Holmgren would bury Carroll. Carroll needs top tier talent to succeed. Holmgren did more with less.

Carrol CREATED that top talent using late rounders, practice squad players and UFA's.

That's exactly what I'm talking about, Carrol is an innovator in how to scout, mine talent, coach them up and get the very best out of them.

Holmgren was a great QB evaluator and developer, but that was about it. He needed Walter Jones, Hutchinson, Sean Alexander, Trufant, Tobek and numerous other high picks to finally get to a SB, and lose.

How can you say Holmgren would have done better with equal talent, when he could never have drafted and developed the talent Carroll has. He didn't have the vision, patience or philosophy to do so.

So holmgren gets zero credit for San Fran dynasty ? 2 sb wins as o.c.
Brett Favre? Developing Steve young ?
The clink is the house holgrem friggin built
Lofa tatupu?
Trufant?
Building one of the best lines of all time
MVP running back ?
Ncaa trophy BYU
Joe Montana’s best 2 seasons (also mvp years)
This debate is closer then you CHOOSE TO BELIEVE

You missed the part where I said Holmgren was a great QB evaluator and developer..........and no, you don't get much credit for drafting guys like Trufant and Alexander in the first round when every other team had them on their board to as very talented at their position. Good job coach for drafting a 1st round RB and playing him!

Here's the fact, NO ONE'S developed more raw talent in either college or the pros than Pete. He might be the greatest of all time at developing and teaching raw talent.
How many players are on roster from those great drafts 7 . 7 how many first rounders did we hit on ? 2 earl and okung so by your logic those cancel out Alexander and trufant. The lengths you guys will go to bury your head in the sand or kool aid is crazy, so Pete’s developed more raw talent in a shorter career than say bill belichek or jon madden or other couches who have had much longer careers. Pete made the team . Yes also give him credit for being the captain when it crumbled. How did that raw talent pete coached look like this pre season lol horrible. So by your thinking we are what 12-4 this year
If your going to keep arguing this point can we please use stats that aren’t pure conjecture or just made up.
Pete won one bowl with the best defense ever assembled, with one of the best qbs ever selected in third round .(hof) took a great dominant team and completely lost it .. holgrem took a undersized finesse defense that was under sized and less tallest led by Matt hass and were robbed of a Super Bowl ... how do you give pete a free pass on destroying a dynasty.
 

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Fade":1nyp299l said:
I'm not going to rank Pete Carroll over Holmgren because he assembled the most talented young roster the NFL has ever seen in 20 years. And then proceeds to mismanage and bumble around for several seasons, team gets blown up because the coach lost control of the whole situation, and now has to start over. That is the definition of underachieving.


When the documentary comes out for this era of Seahawks football. 30 for 30, or whatever. That is what it will be about. How Pete screwed it up.

Holmgren > Carroll.
Even after pete leaves or is retired or axed they still will not ever blame pete for anything lol, he gets all the credit for the build none of the blame for one of the most epic underachieving coaching stints in nfl history. We will literally be tortured by the play for the rest of our natural lives lol ... makes me sick, how’s petes last 5 drafts go . The draft and scout extrodanire has absolutely wifed on some of the worst Seahawks draft picks of all time . Where is Jesse Williams, Kevin Norwood , where’s cristine Michael these days he even in the league lmao
 

purpleneer

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Fade":20cdbb54 said:
I'm not going to rank Pete Carroll over Holmgren because he assembled the most talented young roster the NFL has ever seen in 20 years. And then proceeds to mismanage and bumble around for several seasons, team gets blown up because the coach lost control of the whole situation, and now has to start over. That is the definition of underachieving.


When the documentary comes out for this era of Seahawks football. 30 for 30, or whatever. That is what it will be about. How Pete screwed it up.

Holmgren > Carroll.
I think we're done. You apparently live in a world where the Holmgren era was very different from what it actually was.
 
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