Pete needs to look himself in the mirror.

[keasley45]

Its not about being pass or run heavy. Its about coordinators not being able to freely do what they want. I believe they all have restrictions under Pete. Sure, Pete tells them to go ahead and call the game, but its in a vacuum. Going back to Shotty, maybe he saw that passing the ball more was going to be more effective down the road once things unfolded. I realize Russ had a few bad games and turned the ball over, but instead of retarding the offense, let the guy work through it. I feel Pete pulls the reigns way to quick.

Honestly, nobody here really knows for sure, but when the same issues occur year after year regardless of the changes, you cant help but to speculate.

It wasn't a fewnl bad games. It's been a few bad seasons where the offense he's in was opened up and he can't run it.

I believe there is truth to Pete having a philosophy. But when I've heard him critical of what's being called, his criticism jibes with what you see happening on the field. When we were deep bombing the ball and losing, he complained about not taking advantage of the underneath stuff. LOGICAL. When Geno came in in relief of Russ and was distributing the ball across the field and using the middle of the field, Pete praised it.

So if you think Pete is dictating the scheme into a corner, what are the conditions that he's insisting be maintained on a given play? Not throwing to the middle? Geno has done that with enough frequency to dispell the theory that Pete forbids it.

I'm asking sincerely. What exactly are the clamps he's putting in place that are restricting the game.

Because from what I see, he's allowing some silliness to occur in the same way he did for the first half of 2020 that he railed against before stopping it. Shane is dialing up plays that feature the pass game. Pete has never been a fan of being unbalanced. But now he prefers it? There are articles written wondering why the Seahawks don't run the ball. And I'm supposed yo believe that Pete is responsible for that, when for 10 years he was the coach who refused to pass?

Like I said, talk to me about what it is he's mandating so I understand it. Willing to entertain the idea.

 

[keasley45]

What? You lost me there Keas.

Yeah that wasn't clear. Was saying that I don't recall watching games over the years and wondering so much why things were called, because 75% of the time, the play that was called, wasn't what was executed to the whistle. Russ would bail on the majority of pass plays, hence his perennial league leading time to throw.

I was always perplexed by the odd short passes and bubble screens that netted little, but that was explained during russ's 2020 slump as playcalls that were meant to get Russ in rhythm. Other than that, it wasn't playcalls so much as just never throwing over the middle, which was more a function of the qb.

But evaluating the OC was always fuzzy because the plays simply weren't executed, even when they were good plays. That's what made the offense frustrating.

 

[strohmin]

Outside of the SB, I don't recall watching games and wondering why certain things were called, because the plays that were called were rarely run.

I guess I cant argue with that but I still think Pete as the head coach needs to take a good portion of the blame for the playcalling. I mean he definitely has the authority to tell Waldron to cut the BS and just do what works. He can do the same thing to Geno. If he isnt doing that then that is on him.

 

[pittpnthrs]

It wasn't a fewnl bad games. It's been a few bad seasons where the offense he's in was opened up and he can't run it.

I believe there is truth to Pete having a philosophy. But when I've heard him critical of what's being called, his criticism jibes with what you see happening on the field. When we were deep bombing the ball and losing, he complained about not taking advantage of the underneath stuff. LOGICAL. When Geno came in in relief of Russ and was distributing the ball across the field and using the middle of the field, Pete praised it.

So if you think Pete is dictating the scheme into a corner, what are the conditions that he's insisting be maintained on a given play? Not throwing to the middle? Geno has done that with enough frequency to dispell the theory that Pete forbids it.

I'm asking sincerely. What exactly are the clamps he's putting in place that are restricting the game.

Because from what I see, he's allowing some silliness to occur in the same way he did for the first half of 2020 that he railed against before stopping it. Shane is dialing up plays that feature the pass game. Pete has never been a fan of being unbalanced. But now he prefers it? There are articles written wondering why the Seahawks don't run the ball. And I'm supposed yo believe that Pete is responsible for that, when for 10 years he was the coach who refused to pass?

Like I said, talk to me about what it is he's mandating so I understand it. Willing to entertain the idea.

I believe the clamps come from the philosophy itself in which hampers the coordinators from doing what they really want. Pete demands a low turnover percentage offense be ran. Even with that in place, Geno is still turning it over and it worries me that Pete is going to reel it in even more now. By doing this, the offense becomes even more stagnant when you cant run the ball. He'll run the ball more even if its not working. I've watched happen for years.

The articles being written about wondering why Seattle isnt running the ball is obviously because they are struggling to do so with the Oline issues. That and the league has changed to a pass heavy league anyways. Where I do give credit to Pete where credit is due is that he finally realized he had to change with the times and thus the Waldron hire in hopes to keep the offense modern. The one thing Pete cant seem to control is meddling with it regardless. I remember the first game with Waldron as OC where the offense had all kinds of movement and looked unpredictable. It was a thing of beauty. The Hawks beat the Colts pretty good but the offense looked complicated. Russ threw for 4 TD's that game, but there were a few close calls with picks. The next couple games it was gone. It reverted back to the same old offense we have seen for years. Its strange but its common place with Seattle.

There was the game a year ago or whenever where Seattle ran the same running play like 5 or 6 times in a row with no success (against the Saints I believe, not certain on the team). It was insane. I cant believe an OC would ever do something like that.

I think Pete is just the epitome of the saying "you cant teach an old dog new tricks" and he is stubborn and convinced that old school football still works in todays NFL. While its possible that it can, a team needs the talent to pull it off and Seattle doesnt.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Yeah that wasn't clear. Was saying that I don't recall watching games over the years and wondering so much why things were called, because 75% of the time, the play that was called, wasn't what was executed to the whistle. Russ would bail on the majority of pass plays, hence his perennial league leading time to throw.

I was always perplexed by the odd short passes and bubble screens that netted little, but that was explained during russ's 2020 slump as playcalls that were meant to get Russ in rhythm. Other than that, it wasn't playcalls so much as just never throwing over the middle, which was more a function of the qb.

But evaluating the OC was always fuzzy because the plays simply weren't executed, even when they were good plays. That's what made the offense frustrating.

Seems to be the pattern again now though. The team still throws the bubble screens instead of traditional screens. Lol. I dont think anybody can refute the fact that Geno has been missing open receivers by the bundles this year too.

What i'm getting at is that trying to evaluate the OC/Pete correlation is just as hard this season because the same stuff is happening yet again.

 

[themunn]

I think one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that 3 of our last 4 games have been against AFC North opposition, the best division in the league by some distance.

In fact, our opponents in that span have gone 16-3 this season in games outside of their division - and 1 of those losses was our win against the Browns. Add that the Bengals loss came when Burrow was playing injured and the Ravens lost in OT, and it's worth taking our results with a pinch of salt.

6 weeks ago we were looking at the 4 game stretch from week 12 being the hardest stretch of the season - but based on league-wide results so far I postulate that maybe we've actually just had our most difficult stretch - the 49ers and the Cowboys don't look anywhere near as challenging at this point. Maybe the Eagles do, but when do the Eagles ever beat us?

 

[keasley45]

Seems to be the pattern again now though. The team still throws the bubble screens instead of traditional screens. Lol. I dont think anybody can refute the fact that Geno has been missing open receivers by the bundles this year too.

What i'm getting at is that trying to evaluate the OC/Pete correlation is just as hard this season because the same stuff is happening yet again.

Have all22 . I can refute it. And I look at pretty much every game. Does he miss some? Yeah. Is that why the passing game sucks? Nope.

The thing I see more is lack of a commitment to the run (not Pete) and patterns designed to go to Tyler and Dk with little creativity in distributing the ball out of those looks to other receivers.

The use of the TEs is random. Less a strategy, and more like Shane is looking at his sheet and trying to find something other than Tyler and DK to go to.

And i mean, i hate to use this as an example, but we just git Eskridge back. His first game as a rookie, the dude had 3 or 4 touches in the first qtr before gping down. Now, we cant find a jet sweep to get to him?

Here's the thing. I can absolutely see Pete telling his OC - let's not get too fussy with overly complex patterns. 100%. I can see him saying- take care of the ball. But neither of those things mandate what Shane is putting on the field. Not even Pete's love for PA can account for that. It's simply lack of any kind of rhythm in the O.

And like I said, its not as though we havent seen Shane call a great game. Detroit was an example. And Pete praised it and backed it 100%. So what is supposed to have happened? Pete loved what Shane did against the Lions, but then secretly said - bit dont do it again?? That plan would have been a reasonable groundwork for a stratgey to beat the Ravens. Instead, we did none of it.

We arent adjusting properly. Our running game is illogical, unbalanced amd has no rhythm. Charbs was ticking off runs at a decent clip early agaisnt the Ravens. Hes been more consistent between the Tackles. Yet, we continue to go to KW3 when he constantly bounces plays even when the hole is there. A competent OC would look at that and say - ok. We need to establish the run. 26 is better suites to that than 9. We are going to line up and run the rock and let everythung else flow from it for a change. There hasnt been a single game when weve done that. Not one. And sorry, but again, that the OPPOSITE of a Pete styeled O.

There's a thread up now from a dude who looks at what's wrong with the O. Two things I've been saying, he mentioned - flip flopping Kw and Charbs and not being so stupid with all the illogical presnap motion that fools no one.

These are basic things that are 100% issues that are in the hands of the OC to handle. No way in Hades Pete wants to watch runs constantly bounced outside for minimal gains when he had a jackhammer of s back who has shown he can get yards kw3 hasn't between the tackles.

If that's 50% of the issue, 25% is Geno just refusing to bail the pocket and doing something other than stand their waiting for a 3 second 'all go' to materialize, or forcing the ball. And 25% is execution (routes, blocking, drops).

 

[SoulfishHawk]

So, Geno is w/out blame for the passing game struggles? Answer the question.

 

[keasley45]

So, Geno is w/out blame for the passing game struggles? Answer the question.

I just edited my post above. And if you've read any of what I've written even before today, I've said many times that he forces the ball too much and has made some dumb decisions.

AND ... this is just fact. If you look at the tape, quite a few of the plays that are pushed to Tyler and Dk Are by design, single read plays meant to go there. Often, there are few other routes that are viable to throw. Classic myth as an example was the game against either the cards or Bengals where a few here claimed Geno missed JSN. He didn't, because he was moving the safety to that side, over JSN ... because the play and the read was to DK.

On the other hand, the toss up INtS on the throw to Bobo and few weeks ago should have been a TD if read correctly by Jake, but also in the end shouldn't have been thrown by Geno. Same with the pass the week before to JSN in the redzone.

Of course Geno carries some blame. But this place too quickly, for various reasons, rather than really looking at what's going on, wants to just say 'it's Geno'. Or 'it's Pete'. Ultimately, if Pete doesn't get his coordinators to stop doing dumb stuff, that's on him. But looking at the film, the problems are obviously not as simple as 'it's Geno'.

 

[keasley45]

I'd say that if your qb is accounting for 25% of the reason your offense is struggling, that's a good amount of blame.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

I just edited my post above. And if you've read any of what I've written even before today, I've said many times that he forces the ball too much and has made some dumb decisions.

AND ... this is just fact. If you look at the tape, quite a few of the plays that are pushed to Tyler and Dk Are by design, single read plays meant to go there. Often, there are few other routes that are viable to throw. Classic myth as an example was the game against either the cards or Bengals where a few here claimed Geno missed JSN. He didn't, because he was moving the safety to that side, over JSN ... because the play and the read was to DK.

On the other hand, the toss up INtS on the throw to Bobo and few weeks ago should have been a TD if read correctly by Jake, but also in the end shouldn't have been thrown by Geno. Same with the pass the week before to JSN in the redzone.

Of course Geno carries some blame. But this place too quickly, for various reasons, rather than really looking at what's going on, wants to just say 'it's Geno'. Or 'it's Pete'. Ultimately, if Pete doesn't get his coordinators to stop doing dumb stuff, that's on him. But looking at the film, the problems are obviously not as simple as 'it's Geno'.

Fair enough. We need him on top of his game. And the turnovers and forcing the ball absolutely has to stop.
Where are the adjustments when he's getting absolutely blasted back there? They rarely come.

Also, Russ and Matt both would get blasted plenty, so this isn't just some picking on Geno thing. I have NEVER said that it's ONLY on Geno, that's just silly. A good portion of it is when he is playing bad and making bad decisions. But the patchwork o-line and ridiculous play calling is also a big part of it.
With the talent on offense, it's just confusing af to see this offense struggle to have any consistency. They should be putting up 25-30 a game, imo.

 

[renofox]

What? You lost me there Keas.

He's referencing off-script RW.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Have all22 . I can refute it. And I look at pretty much every game. Does he miss some? Yeah. Is that why the passing game sucks? Nope.

The thing I see more is lack of a commitment to the run (not Pete) and patterns designed to go to Tyler and Dk with little creativity in distributing the ball out of those looks to other receivers.

The use of the TEs is random. Less a strategy, and more like Shane is looking at his sheet and trying to find something other than Tyler and DK to go to.

And i mean, i hate to use this as an example, but we just git Eskridge back. His first game as a rookie, the dude had 3 or 4 touches in the first qtr before gping down. Now, we cant find a jet sweep to get to him?

Here's the thing. I can absolutely see Pete telling his OC - let's not get too fussy with overly complex patterns. 100%. I can see him saying- take care of the ball. But neither of those things mandate what Shane is putting on the field. Not even Pete's love for PA can account for that. It's simply lack of any kind of rhythm in the O.

And like I said, its not as though we havent seen Shane call a great game. Detroit was an example. And Pete praised it and backed it 100%. So what is supposed to have happened? Pete loved what Shane did against the Lions, but then secretly said - bit dont do it again?? That plan would have been a reasonable groundwork for a stratgey to beat the Ravens. Instead, we did none of it.

We arent adjusting properly. Our running game is illogical, unbalanced amd has no rhythm. Charbs was ticking off runs at a decent clip early agaisnt the Ravens. Hes been more consistent between the Tackles. Yet, we continue to go to KW3 when he constantly bounces plays even when the hole is there. A competent OC would look at that and say - ok. We need to establish the run. 26 is better suites to that than 9. We are going to line up and run the rock and let everythung else flow from it for a change. There hasnt been a single game when weve done that. Not one. And sorry, but again, that the OPPOSITE of a Pete styeled O.

There's a thread up now from a dude who looks at what's wrong with the O. Two things I've been saying, he mentioned - flip flopping Kw and Charbs and not being so stupid with all the illogical presnap motion that fools no one.

These are basic things that are 100% issues that are in the hands of the OC to handle. No way in Hades Pete wants to watch runs constantly bounced outside for minimal gains when he had a jackhammer of s back who has shown he can get yards kw3 hasn't between the tackles.

If that's 50% of the issue, 25% is Geno just refusing to bail the pocket and doing something other than stand their waiting for a 3 second 'all go' to materialize, or forcing the ball. And 25% is execution (routes, blocking, drops).

Great post Keas and I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of it.

I agree its been difficult with the run game. I think everybody will agree even if they dont want to admit it that Charbonnet has looked like the more effective of the two backs. It pains me to say that because I love Walker. I can see why rhythm in the backfield can be difficult to establish with the split back system. Walker is the homerun hitter and is a danger to take it to the house anytime he touches the ball while Zach takes what the field gives him. While its a nice problem to have, having two very capable backs, its tough to figure out who to lean on. Besides all that theres the obvious Oline issues and play calling. They have yet to figure this all out but need to.

Not sure I agree with you about the patterns designed for DK and Tyler that makes it difficult for Geno to get it to other receivers. I think thats purely on Geno. He locks on the primary receiver and is to slow to make the reads to the secondaries. There are open receivers on plays that he just flat out misses.

The TE's are of course not being utilized correctly. I raised a thread earlier about Fant being incapable of blocking when he's in the backfield. Why is he being used in that role instead of running routes? I think Dissly is better suited to block while Fant and Parkinson are better receivers. Anyways, yeah they are missing out on using these guys and it would make life so much easier for them if they did.

I realize the whole thing with Pete meddling in the offense isnt just black and white, but looking at the past 10 years and the almost identical patterns and trends, it does raise the eyebrow.

 

[TwistedHusky]

We don't have RBs we can rely on to run a run-heavy offense. We have to pass.

Walker is a guy that needs to get to the outside or needs a big hole to run through. He is still too much of a dancer to rely on as holes tend to close while he is hesitating.

Charbs is basically a FB running the ball. Admittedly a good or even excellent FB. But if you need more than 3 yds, he isn't your guy unless you pass it to him. In short yardage? If you need 3 or less, he will get it for you. But he shouldn't be running the ball on 1st down unless you are shooting for 2nd & 7 to follow. He doesn't seem to have the quickness to be an every-down back.


We don't have a RB we can consistently get 1st downs with. The plan was rely on our strength (passing with our fantastic WR corps and TEs) and keep the defense honest by running occasionally. It doesn't help we don't use screens effectively to slow down the pass rush and keep the RBs engaged but we've never done that well.

We are kinda stuck if we are set up to pass the ball as the primary attack, and suddenly cannot reliably do that. Maybe that is the OL being decimated, maybe Geno turned back into a pumpkin. Who knows? But putting a run-heavy plan in place without the horses w will likely end poorly for us too. We'd be playing tennis with ping-pong paddles. We have the wrong pieces for that game plan.

 

[sutz]

I'd bet dollars to donuts that Pete "looks in the mirror" more than just about anybody posting in this forum, including me.

 

[TheLegendOfBoom]

Seattle is consistently better than half the teams in the league.

But, also, not as good as the other half of the teams in league.

Seattle is just a little bit better than half of the league.

If Carroll can’t see this and sees Seattle as a top echelon team, Carroll, needs to remove himself from coaching.

The guy is borderline delusional.

 

[keasley45]

Great post Keas and I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of it.

I agree its been difficult with the run game. I think everybody will agree even if they dont want to admit it that Charbonnet has looked like the more effective of the two backs. It pains me to say that because I love Walker. I can see why rhythm in the backfield can be difficult to establish with the split back system. Walker is the homerun hitter and is a danger to take it to the house anytime he touches the ball while Zach takes what the field gives him. While its a nice problem to have, having two very capable backs, its tough to figure out who to lean on. Besides all that theres the obvious Oline issues and play calling. They have yet to figure this all out but need to.

Not sure I agree with you about the patterns designed for DK and Tyler that makes it difficult for Geno to get it to other receivers. I think thats purely on Geno. He locks on the primary receiver and is to slow to make the reads to the secondaries. There are open receivers on plays that he just flat out misses.

The TE's are of course not being utilized correctly. I raised a thread earlier about Fant being incapable of blocking when he's in the backfield. Why is he being used in that role instead of running routes? I think Dissly is better suited to block while Fant and Parkinson are better receivers. Anyways, yeah they are missing out on using these guys and it would make life so much easier for them if they did.

I realize the whole thing with Pete meddling in the offense isnt just black and white, but looking at the past 10 years and the almost identical patterns and trends, it does raise the eyebrow.

Well, we'll agree to mostly agree then. Can't argue much.

Regardless of what'd going on though, I have faith that they can get things on the right track. They haven't been abke to do do in the past for very different reasons. 23' is a different beast.

I think thr single biggest difference Pete can make right now is to hold people's feet to the fire. When he's done it in the past, it's generated results. This year coming off of week 1, 2020 mid season, 2021 week 13 or so. His greatest strength is his biggest liability. He believes too much in harnessing energy and positivity in thr culture he creates, but is lax on details and accountability.

Going back to even thr LOB days, the accountability that made them great cane from within. Pete set it in motion, primed the motor, and then the thing just developed a life of its own. Kj and ADB have said as much.

I think this year and last, when we've found success despite our mistakes, he's pumped the positive and i glossed over the negative, not ignoring it, but trusting it wiukd get better. He can't do that. And his comment about how what we've been doing and playing was good enough to get us to 1st place speaks to that happening. He needs to put his foot on the gas and not let up - on his coordinators, on Geno, on everybody. It can't be all F'n energy and why not us, hoping the internal hype carries the day. That shi+ goes quickly when you get smacked in the mouth by a good team who's been preparing for your weaknesses.

This team needs to be more strategic, the way they were against Detroit. I think coming off of that game they thought they'd arrived and then proceeded to get beat by a team they shouldn't have.

Then they go and hang their hats on besting a good D in Cleveland and again, think they're good. There's something to be said for swag. But it had to matched up to the xs and os. Pete also acknowledged that was the issue week 1. Too much hype, too much swag, not enough xs and os... p's and q's.

I hope they get it straight it take it out on Washington with tye same kind if sharp performance they put on against Detroit after getting embarrassed in week 1.

This might just have been a timely lesson to learn before hitting the hard stretch of the schedule. If they can pick up the next 2 Ws and hit the gauntlet and 7 and 3... sharper and more seasoned... all is not lost at all.

 

[balakoth]

OK. Your initial response is to me posting Walker's stats. Are you implying that Seattle should run the ball more with an ineffective running game while down double digits? I don't understand, mainly because you haven't expressed a coherent point. Instead, you've jumped to conclusions about an innocuous statement.

Seriously? Is being extra daft from his first post the new trend? Funny stuff

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Pete isn't going to change. And to expect him to after a decade plus is kind of silly. It's extremely frustrating, but he is what he is, and he blatantly refuses to adjust, often.

 

[WarHawks]

Pete isn't going to change. And to expect him to after a decade plus is kind of silly. It's extremely frustrating, but he is what he is, and he blatantly refuses to adjust, often.

Pete isn't any different than Geno in this regard. I keep saying it over and over, yet no one seems to believe that 32 and 72 yr old leopards don't change their spots. Fundamentally, they are what they are. Sure, people can modify their habits and adapt somewhat, but their basic makeup doesn't change that much.