Patrick Willis headed to IR...

[ringless]

Sucks, but pretty hard to feel sorry for any other team right now.

I certainly don't feel sorry for any other team..... But it just goes to show how well coached, and how deep/talented our teams are in this division to overcome the losses and still be winning games like that

 

[Largent80]

It is pretty clear that rosters need to be expanded. The rate of injuries these days has to be so much higher than say, in the 70's when players were a LOT smaller and slower.

 

[Scottemojo]

^^^ He definitely developed that reputation in his first couple years, but over the last five seasons he has averaged about 1.5 tackles a game and a single sack per year. He's a plugger at this point. That's an important role in the Hawks' scheme no doubt, but at this point he has proven to be a very one-dimensional player (hence, him only playing on running downs and his % of snaps on the Hawks D decreasing every year for at least the last three years).

In any case, I've DEFINITELY overstayed my welcome in this thread. I'll drop it.

Stats. the last refuge of the blind.
Meebs gets doubled all the time, and still teams avoid running in the middle. He collapses pockets. Sacks? No. Uncomfortable QBs? Yeah.

I watch every Niner game. Saying Meebs is as important to us as Smith is to you is no insult. It is pure respect. Those who look for insult see no respect.

 

[SF49r]

Mebane is a great player and he is going to be missed. I always thought he was one of the underrated players on the seahawks defense. He doesn't put up alot of numbers but he collapses the pocket and his presence there sure makes a difference, hes kind of like Justin Smith you could say. Remember when we lost Smith late in 2012? Our defense was not the same at all. To say he is not that big of a loss is just pure ignorance. Who is going to replace him btw?

 

[-The Glove-]

Mebane is a great player and he is going to be missed. I always thought he was one of the underrated players on the seahawks defense. He doesn't put up alot of numbers but he collapses the pocket and his presence there sure makes a difference, hes kind of like Justin Smith you could say. Remember when we lost Smith late in 2012? Our defense was not the same at all. To say he is not that big of a loss is just pure ignorance. Who is going to replace him btw?

Thank you...there's supposed to be a rotation of Kevin Williams, Jordan Hill, and tony mcd

 

[Popeyejones]

^^^ He definitely developed that reputation in his first couple years, but over the last five seasons he has averaged about 1.5 tackles a game and a single sack per year. He's a plugger at this point. That's an important role in the Hawks' scheme no doubt, but at this point he has proven to be a very one-dimensional player (hence, him only playing on running downs and his % of snaps on the Hawks D decreasing every year for at least the last three years).

Stats. the last refuge of the blind.
Meebs gets doubled all the time, and still teams avoid running in the middle. He collapses pockets. Sacks? No. Uncomfortable QBs? Yeah.

Again, I've never said that we should just look at his stats. If anything his stats tell us quite little about his value as a player, and instead, as is the case with all two-gap NTs, tell us about his role on the team.

To me it's pretty simple. All the data points we have point to the same direction about who he is, what he does, and how the coaching staff sees him:

*His position in the scheme (NT with 2-gap contain)
*His stats playing that position (about 1.5 tackles a game and one sack per year across the last five years)
*The % of downs he's playing on (47%, down from 54% last year and 62% the year before that)
*Which downs he's leaving the field for (Passing downs)
*His salary (about 5 million per)

Along every single one of these metrics we're talking Glenn Dorsey, and not along a single one of these metrics are we talking Justin Smith.

If folks want to argue that he's a better player than Glenn Dorsey that's pretty subjective (although I'd personally agree), but comparing him to Justin Smith is just bizarre.

 

[pehawk]

^^^ He definitely developed that reputation in his first couple years, but over the last five seasons he has averaged about 1.5 tackles a game and a single sack per year. He's a plugger at this point. That's an important role in the Hawks' scheme no doubt, but at this point he has proven to be a very one-dimensional player (hence, him only playing on running downs and his % of snaps on the Hawks D decreasing every year for at least the last three years).

Stats. the last refuge of the blind.
Meebs gets doubled all the time, and still teams avoid running in the middle. He collapses pockets. Sacks? No. Uncomfortable QBs? Yeah.

Again, I've never said that we should just look at his stats. If anything his stats tell us quite little about his value as a player, and instead, as is the case with all two-gap NTs, tell us about his role on the team.

To me it's pretty simple. All the data points we have point to the same direction about who he is, what he does, and how the coaching staff sees him:

*His position in the scheme (NT with 2-gap contain)
*His stats playing that position (about 1.5 tackles a game and one sack per year across the last five years)
*The % of downs he's playing on (47%, down from 54% last year and 62% the year before that)
*Which downs he's leaving the field for (Passing downs)
*His salary (about 5 million per)

Along every single one of these metrics we're talking Glenn Dorsey, and not along a single one of these metrics are we talking Justin Smith.

If folks want to argue that he's a better player than Glenn Dorsey that's pretty subjective (although I'd personally agree), but comparing him to Justin Smith is just bizarre.

Again, no one is literally comparing the two. Mebane gets the Hawks the 2 n 9's and 3 n 7's.

You're acting dense just to be a dick. Don't be a dick. And for Christ sake, can you pretend you know the NFL and not just your team? The NFL forum could be way better but it's mainly asshole seahawks.net members baiting asshole 49er fans.

 

[Popeyejones]

My guess is Brooks is gone after the year so next years starting 4 will likely be...

Aldon Smith, Navorro Bowman, Patrick Willis, Aaron Lynch

...and Borland the first guy off bench and heir apparent for Willis.

Agreed about Brooks being gone, but I'm a cantankerous jerk in this thread apparently ( :lol: ), and totally disagree about Borland being the heir apparent to Willis, or Borland softening the blow of the loss of Willis.

I think the major issue that people have evaluating 9ers ILBs is that they don't differentiate between the "Mike" backer and the "Jack" backer.

The basic story is that "Mike" plays on the strong side of the formation, and ends up getting more stats, whereas as the "Jack" backer actually has a harder job, and is more frequently required to play in coverage, correctly diagnose formations, and protect the back side of the formation. Another way to think about it is that "Mike" is basically just assigned to the RB, whereas the "Jack" is playing more in concert with the rest of the defense.

For Willis' first four years he played "Mike" (the ILB job that's easier but piles up tackles) and everyone thought he was All World.

Because he was a better (and more multi-faceted) LB Fangio moved him to "Jack" and slotted Bowman into the "Mike." Suddenly Bowman was piling up the stats and people mistakenly even started believing that he was better than Willis.

This year for the first few games Willis moved back to the "Mike" and his stats ballooned, but Willhoite couldn't handle the "Jack" so they swapped, and then for a few games it looked like Willis had disappeared and Willhoite was actually pretty good.

Since Borland has been in Willhoite has moved back over to the "Jack", and Borland is eating up all the stats in the "Mike" role (and people mistakenly think Wilhoite has disappeared).

SOOOOO.....

Borland, IMO, is too slow, too short, and too stiff in the hips to ever be an heir apparent to Willis. He'll never be a "Jack" backer, IMO. He's very promising in the "Mike" role though.

A better way to think about it IMO is that Bowman is the heir apparent to Willis and Borland is the heir apparent to Bowman. Or put another way, once Willis is gone and Bowman slots over too many people will mistakenly believe that Borland is a better ILB than Bowman.


(also worth saying that with Willis and Bowman the 9ers have stumbled into a pretty good thing: Willis gets more money and Bowman gets more glory).

 

[Largent80]

I find it absolutely hilarious that 49er fans feel the need to come into our forum and argue about all things 49er, and even Seahawks.

They waste so much time and effort in what amounts to being laughed at while not in the business of being comedians.

Thanks for the laughs...... :lol:

 

[Popeyejones]

Again, no one is literally comparing the two.

Hard to have a serious conversation when you're disagreeing with yourself as much as you're disagreeing with me:

Brandon Mebane is to the Seahawks what Justin Smith is to the 49ers.

Mebane gets the Hawks the 2 n 9's and 3 n 7's.

Yep. He's a situational two-gap plugger. The 9ers have a really good run defense too, and along the lines of role, scheme, stats, situational playing and salary you're talking Glenn Dorsey.

You're acting dense just to be a dick. Don't be a dick. And for Christ sake, can you pretend you know the NFL and not just your team? The NFL forum could be way better but it's mainly asshole seahawks.net members baiting asshole 49er fans.

No. I'm making a football argument based on a multitude of factors. You're responding by saying I'm an idiot because I'm a 9ers fan and by calling me a

dick

and an

asshole

 

[Popeyejones]

I find it absolutely hilarious that 49er fans feel the need to come into our forum and argue about all things 49er, and even Seahawks.

They waste so much time and effort in what amounts to being laughed at while not in the business of being comedians.

Thanks for the laughs...... :lol:

Glad to entertain. :th2thumbs:

FWIW though I don't think Marv or I are coming into your forums in the way you're typifying it. Like it or not, we're both posters here, and have been for a long time.

We also disagree with each other about things (e.g. the post you're responding too).

 

[pehawk]

Again, no one is literally comparing the two.

Hard to have a serious conversation when you're disagreeing with yourself as much as you're disagreeing with me:

Brandon Mebane is to the Seahawks what Justin Smith is to the 49ers.

Mebane gets the Hawks the 2 n 9's and 3 n 7's.

Yep. He's a situational two-gap plugger. The 9ers have a really good run defense too, and along the lines of role, scheme, stats, situational playing and salary you're talking Glenn Dorsey.

You're acting dense just to be a dick. Don't be a dick. And for Christ sake, can you pretend you know the NFL and not just your team? The NFL forum could be way better but it's mainly asshole seahawks.net members baiting asshole 49er fans.

No. I'm making a football argument based on a multitude of factors. You're responding by saying I'm an idiot because I'm a 9ers fan and by calling me a

dick

and an

asshole

I never called you an asshole. But, if you want to run and cry over my assertion your intentional ignorance is dickish, go right ahead. The best mod to tattle too would be Anguish...he'd love it.

 

[Marvin49]

My guess is Brooks is gone after the year so next years starting 4 will likely be...

Aldon Smith, Navorro Bowman, Patrick Willis, Aaron Lynch

...and Borland the first guy off bench and heir apparent for Willis.

Agreed about Brooks being gone, but I'm a cantankerous jerk in this thread apparently ( :lol: ), and totally disagree about Borland being the heir apparent to Willis, or Borland softening the blow of the loss of Willis.

I think the major issue that people have evaluating 9ers ILBs is that they don't differentiate between the "Mike" backer and the "Jack" backer.

The basic story is that "Mike" plays on the strong side of the formation, and ends up getting more stats, whereas as the "Jack" backer actually has a harder job, and is more frequently required to play in coverage, correctly diagnose formations, and protect the back side of the formation. Another way to think about it is that "Mike" is basically just assigned to the RB, whereas the "Jack" is playing more in concert with the rest of the defense.

For Willis' first four years he played "Mike" (the ILB job that's easier but piles up tackles) and everyone thought he was All World.

Because he was a better (and more multi-faceted) LB Fangio moved him to "Jack" and slotted Bowman into the "Mike." Suddenly Bowman was piling up the stats and people mistakenly even started believing that he was better than Willis.

This year for the first few games Willis moved back to the "Mike" and his stats ballooned, but Willhoite couldn't handle the "Jack" so they swapped, and then for a few games it looked like Willis had disappeared and Willhoite was actually pretty good.

Since Borland has been in Willhoite has moved back over to the "Jack", and Borland is eating up all the stats in the "Mike" role (and people mistakenly think Wilhoite has disappeared).

SOOOOO.....

Borland, IMO, is too slow, too short, and too stiff in the hips to ever be an heir apparent to Willis. He'll never be a "Jack" backer, IMO. He's very promising in the "Mike" role though.

A better way to think about it IMO is that Bowman is the heir apparent to Willis and Borland is the heir apparent to Bowman. Or put another way, once Willis is gone and Bowman slots over too many people will mistakenly believe that Borland is a better ILB than Bowman.

(also worth saying that with Willis and Bowman the 9ers have stumbled into a pretty good thing: Willis gets more money and Bowman gets more glory).

That was kinda what I meant.

I said it the way I did only because Willis will likely be gone long before Bowman is so the tandem I think will in the longterm be Borland-Bowman whereas right now (if healthy) it's Willis-Bowman. I wasn't commenting specifically on which ILB role each would play.

 

[Popeyejones]

I never called you an asshole. But, if you want to run and cry over my assertion your intentional ignorance is dickish, go right ahead. The best mod to tattle too would be Anguish...he'd love it.

Run and cry? Tattle? Huh?

Rather than making an argument or substantively addressing mine you've just been leaning on weird school yard-isms for over a page now.

This ain't going anywhere, nor has it been for awhile.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on from it. :th2thumbs:

 

[Popeyejones]

That was kinda what I meant.

I said it the way I did only because Willis will likely be gone long before Bowman is so the tandem I think will in the longterm be Borland-Bowman whereas right now (if healthy) it's Willis-Bowman. I wasn't commenting specifically on which ILB role each would play.

Ah, okay. Gotcha. Yeah, agreed that the tandem may very well end up this way, and that it looks like it can end up being a good one.

My post was admittedly tipped toward a long-term bone I have to pick with the way fans and many reporters interpret and rank the 9ers ILBs while disregarding what they're SUPPOSED to be doing within the scheme (e.g. the guy who gets less stats is actually the BETTER player, or in the least the much, much more multi-dimensional player).

The way people have thrown Wilis under the bus to sing Bowman's praises in the past few years has just always struck me as really tone deaf, and with the excitement around Borland and disregard for Wilhoite we're seeing that same thing all over again. (Of course doesn't mean that I don't think Bowman is a really good player -- he is -- or that Borland might end up being a really good player too). I just think stats can overshadow scheme too frequently in a lot of arguments (e.g. disregarding Vance because of his lack of stats, disregarding Mebane because of his lack of stats, or disregarding Tate last year because of his lack of stats).

 

[Largent80]

I find it absolutely hilarious that 49er fans feel the need to come into our forum and argue about all things 49er, and even Seahawks.

They waste so much time and effort in what amounts to being laughed at while not in the business of being comedians.

Thanks for the laughs...... :lol:

Glad to entertain. :th2thumbs:

FWIW though I don't think Marv or I are coming into your forums in the way you're typifying it. Like it or not, we're both posters here, and have been for a long time.

We also disagree with each other about things (e.g. the post you're responding too).

All I said was, I think it's funny that you guys waste SO much time off of your lives blowing gaskets over football players that could care less about your defending them on another teams message board.

You may want to find some life somewhere / time.

If this is how you want to spend your time then my assumption is that you don't have much of one.

For me, I'm 62, work when I want and I have been here for over 14 years. I NEVER go to other teams boards, even to read.

 

[pehawk]

Popeye, Pehawk wasn't directly comparing the two as players, he was comparing their importance to the defense. Get a grip, man.

He knows exactly what I meant.

 

[Uncle Si]

Popeye, Pehawk wasn't directly comparing the two as players, he was comparing their importance to the defense. Get a grip, man.

I started reading at page 2 and understood...

 

[pehawk]

Popeye, Pehawk wasn't directly comparing the two as players, he was comparing their importance to the defense. Get a grip, man.

I started reading at page 2 and understood...

See Popeye! This dude went to ASU and even HE understands. ASU for christs sake...

 

[Largent80]

Maybe Ritalin should be required, or PTSD therapy.