Ken Norton Jr. Has Been Fired

[Jville]

Angry people divert a lot of threads from their original subject to battles between posters. The machine equivalent of a defective transponder generating noise and drowning out the signal. Drowning out the actual subject is what angry people do.

Any insightful discussion about what can be learned from Norton's time as defensive coordinator will have to take place elsewhere. And we could have been having some good informative discussions ..... from that 1st year where Seattle and San Francisco were the last of the teams using their base defenses most of the time to its experimentation with multiple personnel in search of an effective zone blitz scheme in Norton's final year.

Any follow up review of what lessons can be discerned from Norton's time as defensive coordinator is simply not going to take place here. The forum culture will not allow it.

I would say that if the discussion doesn't follow your personal doctrine you say it is worthless, I see it as lots of versions of what people see and argue, it's a forum and difference of views and opinions is what make it work, if you have issues maybe it is better for you to look for things somewhere else like a Blog of your favorite Mediot that doesn't allow dissenting comments.

This place has always been about different views and arguments, kind of what makes it work, yes some go to far, but you can choose to respond or move on.

Be pretty boring if everyone was agreeing Wilson is Elite and can do no wrong.

Pete is a godsend to Seattle we should never doubt him.

Get rid of all players that don't join in pre and post-game prayers, they are not the types we want representing the Seahawks.

All reporter access that doesn't support the Seahawks should be curtailed because they say mean things and so forth.

Time to leave the Bubble.

I hadn't really thought of dot net as incapable of evolving beyond that of a gossip forum. Maybe your right. And, it would fit with the observation that media soap operas lead the way in dictating current subjects to gossip groups.

 

[chris98251]

Angry people divert a lot of threads from their original subject to battles between posters. The machine equivalent of a defective transponder generating noise and drowning out the signal. Drowning out the actual subject is what angry people do.

Any insightful discussion about what can be learned from Norton's time as defensive coordinator will have to take place elsewhere. And we could have been having some good informative discussions ..... from that 1st year where Seattle and San Francisco were the last of the teams using their base defenses most of the time to its experimentation with multiple personnel in search of an effective zone blitz scheme in Norton's final year.

Any follow up review of what lessons can be discerned from Norton's time as defensive coordinator is simply not going to take place here. The forum culture will not allow it.

I would say that if the discussion doesn't follow your personal doctrine you say it is worthless, I see it as lots of versions of what people see and argue, it's a forum and difference of views and opinions is what make it work, if you have issues maybe it is better for you to look for things somewhere else like a Blog of your favorite Mediot that doesn't allow dissenting comments.

This place has always been about different views and arguments, kind of what makes it work, yes some go to far, but you can choose to respond or move on.

Be pretty boring if everyone was agreeing Wilson is Elite and can do no wrong.

Pete is a godsend to Seattle we should never doubt him.

Get rid of all players that don't join in pre and post-game prayers, they are not the types we want representing the Seahawks.

All reporter access that doesn't support the Seahawks should be curtailed because they say mean things and so forth.

Time to leave the Bubble.

I hadn't really thought of dot net as incapable of evolving beyond that of a gossip forum. Maybe your right. And, it would fit with the observation that media soap operas lead the way in dictating current subjects to gossip groups.

Again, a product of the times, every wanna be sportswriter puts up an opinion, just people can't decern the difference between speculative Fantasy and actual news. Many don't remember real journalistic talent, now it's about sensationalism and clicks, many can tell by just the title more from the story with no references and substance.

 

[Jville]

Angry people divert a lot of threads from their original subject to battles between posters. The machine equivalent of a defective transponder generating noise and drowning out the signal. Drowning out the actual subject is what angry people do.

Any insightful discussion about what can be learned from Norton's time as defensive coordinator will have to take place elsewhere. And we could have been having some good informative discussions ..... from that 1st year where Seattle and San Francisco were the last of the teams using their base defenses most of the time to its experimentation with multiple personnel in search of an effective zone blitz scheme in Norton's final year.

Any follow up review of what lessons can be discerned from Norton's time as defensive coordinator is simply not going to take place here. The forum culture will not allow it.

I would say that if the discussion doesn't follow your personal doctrine you say it is worthless, I see it as lots of versions of what people see and argue, it's a forum and difference of views and opinions is what make it work, if you have issues maybe it is better for you to look for things somewhere else like a Blog of your favorite Mediot that doesn't allow dissenting comments.

This place has always been about different views and arguments, kind of what makes it work, yes some go to far, but you can choose to respond or move on.

Be pretty boring if everyone was agreeing Wilson is Elite and can do no wrong.

Pete is a godsend to Seattle we should never doubt him.

Get rid of all players that don't join in pre and post-game prayers, they are not the types we want representing the Seahawks.

All reporter access that doesn't support the Seahawks should be curtailed because they say mean things and so forth.

Time to leave the Bubble.

I hadn't really thought of dot net as incapable of evolving beyond that of a gossip forum. Maybe your right. And, it would fit with the observation that media soap operas lead the way in dictating current subjects to gossip groups.

Again, a product of the times, every wanna be sportswriter puts up an opinion, just people can't decern the difference between speculative Fantasy and actual news. Many don't remember real journalistic talent, now it's about sensationalism and clicks, many can tell by just the title more from the story with no references and substance.

Regrettably, reducing expectations for dot net would seem to be advisable.

 

[BASF]

Now that Matt Nagy is out of work, I would like us to have him come in as the DC.

The improvement of the defense over the past few months is pretty good, but once again not being prepared for the start of the season was unacceptable.

Nagy is not a defensive coach. Maybe you are thinking of someone else?

Yeah, totally spaced on the fact that I wanted the defensive coordinator, Sean Desai. I think he has what it takes with the defensive schemes. I like what he did with that personnel.

 

[flv]

Yeah, totally spaced on the fact that I wanted the defensive coordinator, Sean Desai. I think he has what it takes with the defensive schemes. I like what he did with that personnel.

Desai did a decent job but the Bears put a lot more resources into their defense than will be possible with the Seahawks. The Bears offense was poor so their defense had lower permitted scoring targets. I'm not sure how he'd do with less resources and being a more offense friendly environment. However, if he has a scheme for Adams and he can compensate for the resources he'd be a big upgrade. At this point I think the Seahawks have to bring someone in from outside of their comfort zone. He's certainly worth an interview.

 

[3Girls'HawkDad]

Glad to be rid of Ken Norton, Jr.

Obviously he made it pretty far on his own, but will always be viewed as living in the shadow of his father, George Foreman

 

[A-Dog]

Start with Adams, who is born to be an attacker, not a downfield coverage guy.

This is what drives me insane. Adams is a safety. A safety needs to be able to cover people. If your going to use a safety primarily for attacking the QB, that leaves one less person in coverage. Instead of using a safety for that reason, how about grabbing an effective person who's main job is to do that to begin with. I'll never understand throwing band aids at actual wounds on the defense.

I'm with you here. While everyone last year was applauding his most sacks for a DB record, I honestly questioned what that meant overall. Stats can often be misleading. i.e. Having the most Running Yards or being a top rushing team by yards alone, yeah it sounds great, but are you also running the ball 30% more than the other teams yet only have 10% more yards? Maybe it's NOT that effective. The same can be done for passing as well, the QBs with a ton of yards and TDs but if they end up with just as many INTs just means they're gun slingers not HOF QBs either. Yards after contact for a RB could be a case of an amazing strong runner, or it could just mean your O-line sucks and you get contacted on yard 1 every down. QB pass completion percentage, has usually been very high for RW, but another huge criticism has been that he holds the ball longer than any other QB so he only throws open passes and it also leads to more pressure on him, more sacks and makes his O-Line look worse than they are.

Anyway Adams is a gimmick player. I didn't know much about him when he first got traded for and i remember hearing criticisms he couldn't cover, even in the season he got all his sacks, and yup those Critics were certainly right.

I hear you. All everybody seems to talk about is the sacks he got his first year here, but what was the benefit of those sacks when the defense couldnt stop anybody and was giving up 500 yards a game through the air? They were practically meaningless.

Adams being poor in coverage is a false narrative driven by 1) anger about the trade, 2) a couple of weird seasons here that were marred by injuries, horrific CB play, and dramatically shifting roles each season.

There is no historic evidence that Adams is poor in coverage, whether you look at his time at LSU or his time in NY. PFF grades for safeties aren't particularly illuminating because of unclear coverage responsibilities (was the safety at fault or was he just the nearest player who was covering for a blown coverage by a corner?), but in his two seasons prior to coming to Seattle (2018 and 2019), Adams' PFF grades IN COVERAGE were 86.1 and 89.6 - the latter being the 3rd highest rating in the league for safeties that year.

In 2020 Adams was learning a new scheme, was playing injured, and was playing up on the line much of the time. In 2021 Adams' PFF grades were good overall, playing mostly as a FS, despite abysmal corner play early in the year (not nearly as good as his time with the Jets, but to call him a coverage liability is ridiculous). He can do it all at safety - the defense was not solid enough overall to allow Pete & KNJ to really take advantage of that flexibility.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Adams being poor in coverage is a false narrative driven by 1) anger about the trade, 2) a couple of weird seasons here that were marred by injuries, horrific CB play, and dramatically shifting roles each season. .

Adams was rated the 62nd safety out of 85, and that's overall. If you just do pass coverage he rockets to over 100.

https://www.insider.com/video-jamal-ada ... 20safeties.

Think about this. There are only 64 starting safeties in the league. In order to grade worse than all 64 starting safeties? That means he's rated lower than dozens of backups.

This is the highest paid safety in the entire league, and he's rated lower than backups.

I don't care what stats you believe, what metrics you want to use, Adams is a complete and utter bust when you take into account his salary and draft capital used to get him.

To justify this trade Adams needs to be one of the top 10 defensive player in the entire league. He's NOWHERE near that elite level of impact or performance. He hasn't been since he got hurt in 2020.

 

[A-Dog]

Adams being poor in coverage is a false narrative driven by 1) anger about the trade, 2) a couple of weird seasons here that were marred by injuries, horrific CB play, and dramatically shifting roles each season. .

Adams was rated the 62nd safety out of 85, and that's overall. If you just do pass coverage he rockets to over 100.

https://www.insider.com/video-jamal-ada ... 20safeties.

Think about this. There are only 64 starting safeties in the league. In order to grade worse than all 64 starting safeties? That means he's rated lower than dozens of backups.

This is the highest paid safety in the entire league, and he's rated lower than backups.

I don't care what stats you believe, what metrics you want to use, Adams is a complete and utter bust when you take into account his salary and draft capital used to get him.

To justify this trade Adams needs to be one of the top 10 defensive player in the entire league. He's NOWHERE near that elite level of impact or performance. He hasn't been since he got hurt in 2020.

Don't get it twisted. I am not commenting on the trade or contract. What I am commenting on is the narrative that Adams is poor or even a liability in coverage. This is simply not true. I think most will agree that 2020 was an aberration for various reasons, but in 2021 Adams was good in coverage. Looking at the raw numbers:

Jamal Adams
- 872 snaps
- 45 targets
- 26 receptions
- 57.1 completion % against: (by comparison, Quandre Diggs was at 65.1)
- 252 yards allowed or 0.29 yards/snap (Quandre Diggs at 396 in 1228 snaps, or 0.32 yards/snap)
- 2 TD’s allowed
- 2 INTs
- 69.9 passer rating against

What about Adams' replacement?

Ryan Neal
- 433 snaps
- 29 targets
- 21 receptions
- 72.4 completion % against
- 286 yards allowed or 0.66 yards/snap
- 3 TDs allowed
- 0 INTs
138 passer rating against

So... despite being dramatically worse in literally every statistical category above, somehow Ryan Neal has roughly the same overall grade from PFF as Jamal Adams. I think that tells you something about how PFF "grades" safety play.

On top of that, Adams gave up a lower completion % when targeted than our defensive MVP Quandre Diggs, and gave up fewer yards per snap than Diggs as well.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Adams being poor in coverage is a false narrative driven by 1) anger about the trade, 2) a couple of weird seasons here that were marred by injuries, horrific CB play, and dramatically shifting roles each season. .

Adams was rated the 62nd safety out of 85, and that's overall. If you just do pass coverage he rockets to over 100.

https://www.insider.com/video-jamal-ada ... 20safeties.

Think about this. There are only 64 starting safeties in the league. In order to grade worse than all 64 starting safeties? That means he's rated lower than dozens of backups.

This is the highest paid safety in the entire league, and he's rated lower than backups.

I don't care what stats you believe, what metrics you want to use, Adams is a complete and utter bust when you take into account his salary and draft capital used to get him.

To justify this trade Adams needs to be one of the top 10 defensive player in the entire league. He's NOWHERE near that elite level of impact or performance. He hasn't been since he got hurt in 2020.

Don't get it twisted. I am not commenting on the trade or contract. What I am commenting on is the narrative that Adams is poor or even a liability in coverage. This is simply not true. I think most will agree that 2020 was an aberration for various reasons, but in 2021 Adams was good in coverage. Looking at the raw numbers:

Jamal Adams
- 872 snaps
- 45 targets
- 26 receptions
- 57.1 completion % against: (by comparison, Quandre Diggs was at 65.1)
- 252 yards allowed or 0.29 yards/snap (Quandre Diggs at 396 in 1228 snaps, or 0.32 yards/snap)
- 2 TD’s allowed
- 2 INTs
- 69.9 passer rating against

What about Adams' replacement?

Ryan Neal
- 433 snaps
- 29 targets
- 21 receptions
- 72.4 completion % against
- 286 yards allowed or 0.66 yards/snap
- 3 TDs allowed
- 0 INTs
138 passer rating against

So... despite being dramatically worse in literally every statistical category above, somehow Ryan Neal has roughly the same overall grade from PFF as Jamal Adams. I think that tells you something about how PFF "grades" safety play.

On top of that, Adams gave up a lower completion % when targeted than our defensive MVP Quandre Diggs, and gave up fewer yards per snap than Diggs as well.

Like I said, use whatever metrics you want, Adam's is nowhere near the impact player he needs to be to warrant his contract and picks given up.

That matters, as much as you're trying to remove this part from the equation. If you're being paid like the best safety in the NFL, you need to perform like it, and he hasn't.......and probably won't ever again now that he's broken and going through major shoulder surgeries every off season just to stay on the field.

btw, I was all for the trade when it went down. But I'm objective enough of a fan to admit in hindsight it was a collossal mistake, and probably will go down as the worst trade in Hawk's history after 3-4 more years of this.

 

[A-Dog]

btw, I was all for the trade when it went down. But I'm objective enough of a fan to admit in hindsight it was a collossal mistake, and probably will go down as the worst trade in Hawk's history after 3-4 more years of this.

Are you objective enough of a fan to admit that Adams is not poor in coverage?

 

[LTH]

Very odd to see people defend KNJ throughout the year, but now that he's fired now no one wants to stand on the table for him? Where is the anger? Didn't he get a raw deal? C'mon, c'mon, I want to hear the arguments for the 25th ranked Defense via DVOA (by far the lowest ranked unit on the team.) And given their talent at all levels of the defense they shouldn't have ranked so poorly. Which points directly to subpar coaching.

Well, I defended our defense throughout the year and I already did so multiple times in this thread, so does that count?

And DVOA is kind of a bad metric to base our team on this year because our problems uniquely defy the DVOA system because it measures things on a per play basis. Your team is ranked higher if they are more likely to 'win' on every play than not. In some ways, this is a good thing (way more unique incidents to create an aggregate score with) but for a team like ours, it vastly overrates our offense and vastly underrates our defense.

We already know that on any given 'play' our defense was likely to 'lose'. They are terrible between the 20s. Nobody has argued this. They give up lots of yards. But those plays don't mean as much to the result of an actual game as things like performance on 4th down or in the red zone. And our team was consistenly VERY good in those situations. And since we also didn't give up many 20+ yards insta-touchdowns, well, the fact that we might 'lose' the average play doesn't lead to the other team, you know... scoring? That's far more important than how many 'yards' or 'plays' we give up.

Our offense is the opposite. We were basically the three and out kings. But a three and out drive might actually have two 'successful' plays (say, a rush and short pass that total like 7 yards) but fail on the third. Well, in that instance we only had 'one' fail play. So great, we 'won' two out of three plays but the other team still gets the ball. Add on the fact that we could be so explosive (touchdown drives that consist of only a handful of plays), their system thinks our offense is actually 'efficient' when in reality it was very boom or bust (usually bust). On top of that, we were so good at not turning the ball over, we typically didn't get 'punished' by their system the way a team that was as bad as our offense was usually would be because teams that can't sustain drives as badly as the Seahawks this year typically also turn the ball over more.

As I already pointed out in this thread, if our average offensive drive had simply increased from bottom of the league (and by a good margin) to tied for bottom third, the number of drives taken away from the other team would have made our team a top 5 scoring defense. Our defense wouldn't have had to do ANYTHING to become a top 5 scoring D besides have Russell Wilson throw just a couple of more first downs.


Our defense was by no means perfect but they been scapegoated for our teams woes this year. I'm hopeful our new DC will be an upgrade over Ken Norton, so I'm not like up-in-arms about his 'raw deal', but I flatly reject any argument that our primary problems this year were on that side of the ball.

Nice post!

Nice post. I'm very interested to hear how this firing went down and what Carrolls reasoning behind it was. somehow, I think we are going to get a vanilla answer to the question. I hope the media steps up and asks some good questions and gets some good answers so we can discuss it


LTH

 

[BASF]

Very odd to see people defend KNJ throughout the year, but now that he's fired now no one wants to stand on the table for him? Where is the anger? Didn't he get a raw deal? C'mon, c'mon, I want to hear the arguments for the 25th ranked Defense via DVOA (by far the lowest ranked unit on the team.) And given their talent at all levels of the defense they shouldn't have ranked so poorly. Which points directly to subpar coaching.

Well, I defended our defense throughout the year and I already did so multiple times in this thread, so does that count?

And DVOA is kind of a bad metric to base our team on this year because our problems uniquely defy the DVOA system because it measures things on a per play basis. Your team is ranked higher if they are more likely to 'win' on every play than not. In some ways, this is a good thing (way more unique incidents to create an aggregate score with) but for a team like ours, it vastly overrates our offense and vastly underrates our defense.

We already know that on any given 'play' our defense was likely to 'lose'. They are terrible between the 20s. Nobody has argued this. They give up lots of yards. But those plays don't mean as much to the result of an actual game as things like performance on 4th down or in the red zone. And our team was consistenly VERY good in those situations. And since we also didn't give up many 20+ yards insta-touchdowns, well, the fact that we might 'lose' the average play doesn't lead to the other team, you know... scoring? That's far more important than how many 'yards' or 'plays' we give up.

Our offense is the opposite. We were basically the three and out kings. But a three and out drive might actually have two 'successful' plays (say, a rush and short pass that total like 7 yards) but fail on the third. Well, in that instance we only had 'one' fail play. So great, we 'won' two out of three plays but the other team still gets the ball. Add on the fact that we could be so explosive (touchdown drives that consist of only a handful of plays), their system thinks our offense is actually 'efficient' when in reality it was very boom or bust (usually bust). On top of that, we were so good at not turning the ball over, we typically didn't get 'punished' by their system the way a team that was as bad as our offense was usually would be because teams that can't sustain drives as badly as the Seahawks this year typically also turn the ball over more.

As I already pointed out in this thread, if our average offensive drive had simply increased from bottom of the league (and by a good margin) to tied for bottom third, the number of drives taken away from the other team would have made our team a top 5 scoring defense. Our defense wouldn't have had to do ANYTHING to become a top 5 scoring D besides have Russell Wilson throw just a couple of more first downs.


Our defense was by no means perfect but they been scapegoated for our teams woes this year. I'm hopeful our new DC will be an upgrade over Ken Norton, so I'm not like up-in-arms about his 'raw deal', but I flatly reject any argument that our primary problems this year were on that side of the ball.

Nice post!

Nice post. I'm very interested to hear how this firing went down and what Carrolls reasoning behind it was. somehow, I think we are going to get a vanilla answer to the question. I hope the media steps up and asks some good questions and gets some good answers so we can discuss it


LTH

What I believe it boils down to is that we were once again not prepared at the start of the season. Other teams have brought in new players into their systems and were not nearly as badly prepared as we were for two consecutive seasons. Yes, we improved when everyone got on the same page and got some accountability, but that was a month or more into the season. That is a quarter of the season essentially handicapped because our DC did not have the players ready to play seamlessly in the scheme.

Also, I have to call out the fact that the choices to call the games on the defensive line have been poor to start each of the last two seasons. The lack of effective stunts to get a guy an advantage against their blocker have been seriously lacking for at least the first half of the past two seasons.

You can not do either of those things in the best division in football.