John Clayton = official GOOFBALL mode

[Largent80]

28 wins in his first 2 years (a record) culminating with a championship.....Yeah.

 

[FargoHawk]

QBs are asked to execute different game plans for each team. Unfair to judge them all based on stats.

 

[gargantual]

Here's a breakdown replete with stats but laid out in such a way the average joe should be able to follow:

http://www.fieldgulls.com/seahawks-anal ... -the-draft

The comparison I thought was the coolest:

<<<
RUSSELL WILSON VS. MODERN HALL OF FAMERS' FIRST TWO YEARS

(defined as all the HOF QB's who retired in the last 20 years, plus Brett Favre and Kurt Warner)
Name W-L, % Team point diff. Losses by 8+ Playoff W-L QB rating TD-INT, ratio ANY/A AV
Russell Wilson 24-8,.750 353 0 4-1 100.6 52-19, 2.74 7.05 32
Troy Aikman 7-19, .269 -253 10 0-0 62.0 20-36, 0.56 3.55 9
John Elway 16-8, .667 87 2 0-1 67.9 25-29, 0.86 4.58 14
Brett Favre 17-12, .586 38 8 1-1 79.2 37-37, 1.00 5.79 25
Jim Kelly 10-18, .357 -96 8 0-0 83.5 41-28. 1.46 5.55 21
Dan Marino 21-4, .840 354 4 2-2 104.4 68-23, 2.96 8.40 31
Joe Montana 15-8, .652 12 4 3-0 88.2 34-21, 1.62 5.99 18
Warren Moon 7-23, .233 -325 16 (!) 0-0 73.1 27-33, 0.82 4.74 18
Kurt Warner 21-6, .778 353 3 3-1 104.7 62-31, 2.00 8.17 34
Steve Young 3-16, .158 -387 12 0-0 63.3 11-21, 0.52 3.49 13

Rankings!

1. Marino

2. Warner

3. Wilson

4. Montana

5. Favre

6. Kelly

7. Elway

...

8. Moon

9. (tie) Aikman, Young
>>>

(Wish there was a way to do columns in this beotch....OFW)

BTW, Russell grades out amazing no matter how/who you compare him to (as detailed in the article). I wouldn't trade him for anyone, when factoring his age (one or two QBs are slightly better than him IMHO, but on their way out of the league in a few years).

 

[TwistedHusky]

I could go into a long description of why Russell would be considered elite.

He has three to four traits that elite QBs all have, and that are considered extremely rare. Those same traits are essentially required for being a top tier QB (for top tier we mean HOF quality, not best in the NFL quality).

That does not make him a HOF QB but it does show how rare those traits are.

The funny thing is that you don't even need to make that defense because the idea that either Stafford or Ryan are better than Wilson is laughable at best.

Ryan was getting a reputation as a choke artist until the Seahawk playoff game, but it really was the heroics of his HOF caliber TE and the bizarre tendency of our defense to go into "moron mode" at the end of games that won the game for him. He nearly choked away that big lead single-handedly.

And Stafford? Stafford is the Dominique Wilkins of the NFL (or what people accused Nique of being). A guy that puts up huge numbers when it hardly matters and falls apart when it does. And sometimes just starts to toss success into the dumpster out of the blue for no good reason in moments when it doesn't. Stafford will put up huge numbers his entire career but he will never win a thing because his instincts are so horrible. To call him elite is hilarious.

Romo might take a lot of heat for being a choker, and much of that is earned but I would rather Romo over Ryan or Stafford easily. And Romo still won't be winning the big game for anyone even with a good team behind him.

Bottomline, any list that has Stafford, Romo and Ryan over Wilson loses credibility the moment it is written. That would be like listing the AMC Pacer, Pontiac Grand Am & the Pontiac Fiero on your list of the fastest cars ever made.

 

[WilsonMVP]

"Flacco, Romo, Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Eli Manning is 7-13" All I can say to this is

How are all of these QBs better than Wilson in his mind...just...wow.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Question to those who get upset over Wilson's ranking in the pundits' eyes, or whether he's considered elite...

Do you think Ben Roethlisberger is elite? Honest question.

I dont think he is. He is very very good but not elite. How can you be elite when you have a 20 something QB rating in the superbowl and STILL win. You obv had no part in even winning that.

 

[WilsonMVP]

Question to those who get upset over Wilson's ranking in the pundits' eyes, or whether he's considered elite...

Do you think Ben Roethlisberger is elite? Honest question.

No, but he's close. He's top 10 for sure, mostly because he actually has a pair unlike those behind him (e.g. Ryan, Cutler, Romo, Stafford), and the 1.25 rings (he nearly lost the first one for them). I'd also take him in a big game over some of the top guys (for sure Manning, probably Rodgers, and maybe Brees). It's all irrelevant in comparison to Wilson anyway, as RW is already better. Give Wilson a line, some real receiving threats, and 5-10 more throws and he puts up Rodgers-esque numbers. As he develops you're looking at a guy who should consistently have a 70% completion percentage, 30-35 tds, >10 int (which really, how many of his 18 have been "what were you doing throws?". I can think of maybe 2-3 which is insane), and between 110-120 qtbck rating. Also, the stats are not all of the story. Brady had one of his best ever seasons last year despite a drop statistically.

If you compare Wilson's first two seasons to Roethlisberger's first two seasons, there's a LOT of similarities (even down to the criticisms each QB has faced from the media). Add to that the fact that Roethlisberger has developed and proven that he can be the focal point for his team's offense (he's thrown for over 4000 yards in a season on multiple occasions) as opposed to the first two years, when he was primarily asked to (and let me know if this sounds familiar) protect the ball and make plays to keep the chains moving while letting the defense and run game remain the focus. In other words, Roethlisberger's done essentially what Wilson's done his first two seasons, and then continued to have success as a QB regardless of the system around him (Whisenhunt, Arians, Haley) and also while working behind one of the league's least impressive O-lines for years.

If you don't consider Roethlisberger elite, it's hard to call Wilson elite if you're being truly objective.

Thats only true to an extend. Big Bens first 2 years he only had 34 TDs and 20 INT. Wilson has 52TDs and 19INt so I would say that is alot less of being carried than Ben was.

 

[volsunghawk]

Question to those who get upset over Wilson's ranking in the pundits' eyes, or whether he's considered elite...

Do you think Ben Roethlisberger is elite? Honest question.

I dont think he is. He is very very good but not elite. How can you be elite when you have a 20 something QB rating in the superbowl and STILL win. You obv had no part in even winning that.

Eh, Wilson posted a 49.7 rating in our OT victory against Houston. Does that mean he's not elite, either?

Every QB has a garbage game here and there that still results in victory. Montana had a few. Hell, Dan Marino had a game where he posted a 2.7 rating, threw a pick six, completed only one pass, and was pulled for Damon Huard... but the Dolphins still won. Does that change his status?

You don't become elite or not elite based on a single game. It's based on career production... and Roethlisberger's first two years are very close to what Wilson's done thus far. Add in the fact that Roethlisberger has accomplished more than Wilson has, and I think you'd have to rank him ahead of Wilson. Wilson's off to what is among the best starts for a QB in NFL history, and it seems likely that he'll be one of the top QBs in the league for a long time. He'll definitely earn that elite status.

But whether he's there now really depends on how you define elite. If it's about great YPA, protecting the ball, making plays at clutch moments, being a leader the entire team looks to... well, yeah, he's elite. But then, so are a lot of other QBs. If it's more about being the focal point of the offense and succeeding with efficiency and explosiveness... maybe he's not there yet. Maybe just due to how Carroll likes to operate, he never will be.

 

[volsunghawk]

Question to those who get upset over Wilson's ranking in the pundits' eyes, or whether he's considered elite...

Do you think Ben Roethlisberger is elite? Honest question.

No, but he's close. He's top 10 for sure, mostly because he actually has a pair unlike those behind him (e.g. Ryan, Cutler, Romo, Stafford), and the 1.25 rings (he nearly lost the first one for them). I'd also take him in a big game over some of the top guys (for sure Manning, probably Rodgers, and maybe Brees). It's all irrelevant in comparison to Wilson anyway, as RW is already better. Give Wilson a line, some real receiving threats, and 5-10 more throws and he puts up Rodgers-esque numbers. As he develops you're looking at a guy who should consistently have a 70% completion percentage, 30-35 tds, >10 int (which really, how many of his 18 have been "what were you doing throws?". I can think of maybe 2-3 which is insane), and between 110-120 qtbck rating. Also, the stats are not all of the story. Brady had one of his best ever seasons last year despite a drop statistically.

If you compare Wilson's first two seasons to Roethlisberger's first two seasons, there's a LOT of similarities (even down to the criticisms each QB has faced from the media). Add to that the fact that Roethlisberger has developed and proven that he can be the focal point for his team's offense (he's thrown for over 4000 yards in a season on multiple occasions) as opposed to the first two years, when he was primarily asked to (and let me know if this sounds familiar) protect the ball and make plays to keep the chains moving while letting the defense and run game remain the focus. In other words, Roethlisberger's done essentially what Wilson's done his first two seasons, and then continued to have success as a QB regardless of the system around him (Whisenhunt, Arians, Haley) and also while working behind one of the league's least impressive O-lines for years.

If you don't consider Roethlisberger elite, it's hard to call Wilson elite if you're being truly objective.

Thats only true to an extend. Big Bens first 2 years he only had 34 TDs and 20 INT. Wilson has 52TDs and 19INt so I would say that is alot less of being carried than Ben was.

You'll find a lot more similarities than differences. Wilson has a better TD/INT ratio, that's true. Ben had a better YPA. Both benefited from being essentially dead LAST in the league in passing attempts. And it's not about being carried... it's about operating and leading the offense without the burden of being the focal point. That was true of both guys.

My point isn't to be a champion of Roethlisberger's, but to try and put what Wilson's done thus far into context and maybe highlight why there are folks who are reluctant to buy into the idea of Wilson as elite. These are the same arguments that were leveled at Roethlisberger back in '04/'05, and I'd be willing to bet that many here supported those arguments against Roethlisberger.

 

[jblaze]

Anything from Tokadub is comedic gold. Dude is a complete tool and has proven it repeatedly over time.

This one from Friday is by far my favorite.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=91848

 

[canucklhead]

If the Seahawks asked Russell Wilson to throw the ball 35 times a game and for over 300 yards each week he'd throw for over 300 yards each week and lead the team the best he can each week towards victories. SB was as shining example. No, they didn't need him to throw for 300 yards, but when the game was early and still in the balance he was dead on money and threw that team to points on it's first 3 drives. If needed, he would have thrown for 300, Hell even 400 yards, easily.

In fact, if Pete asked Russell to build a bridge he'd come back a month later with cement all over his clothing and ask him if he desires a Bus Lane be included.

That's what already makes him an elite FOOTBALL PLAYER...just happens to be a QB. He'll work his tail off to do anything required to achieve the desired goal...personal stats be damned. And he'll galvanize and LEAD his team to be the best it can be every time they step on the field, be it a Tuesday practice or the SB. So far I'd say he's achieved quite nicely compared to his peers.

 

[theascension]

We love our receivers but lets be honest Russell hasn't had an elite receiver like many 'top 10 quarterbacks' have. I hope Percy is 100% next year just to prove any haters wrong. He's easily the best deep baller around with Drew Brees but just needs a receiver who can create a bit more separation than Tate/Baldwin have.

It's also pretty hard to get into rhythm as a QB when we run on 1st and 2nd down so much, it's a lot to ask but I imagine once Lynch is gone we will change our offensive style a bit.

 

[hawkfan68]

The argument for Eli and Ben R is that they both have 2 Superbowl rings. So there's a case for those two but not for Rivers, Stafford, Luck, RG3, and Romo. Russ has already outdid these guys by winning the SB. However, I think Russ will be better than all of them when it's all said and done. Besides who cares if he's not considered elite, the man knows how to win. I'll take wins than any mediot appointing somebody as elite or not.

 

[kearly]

I've gotten used to it. One of the downsides to having our defense and run game talked up so much is that the rest of our team will inevitably be downplayed.

Also, Clayton's personnel opinions have always been pretty dumb- this isn't anything new.

 

[edogg23]

Clayton also said that he thought Wilson could pass for over 70% completion and that he will be one of the top qbs in the league. He's not talking about who would you pick for your team right now, he's talking about overall careers so Wilson can't pass some guys until they are out of the league. It's just a different perspective, doesn't mean he doesn't think RW is awesome.

 

[BlueBlood]

i just cringe when I think about how underrated Russell is...

alomst 7,000 yards passing

2 seasons with 100+ qb rating

50 tds to 20 ints

1000 yards rushing

A SUPERBOWL CHAMPION!

and hes only played two years...

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

John Clayton is dumb because let's not act like Russell Wilson can't average 250 yards per game to get 4000 yards.

Let's not act like throwing 52 passes in the least amount of passing attempts isn't an amazing feat... ask Peyton Manning how many he needed his first year.

If Russell Wilson had 600 passing attempts per year he'd have 4500 yards and 40+ TDs easily.

But teams that have to pass 600+ times don't invest in their running game and sure as hell don't have an elite defense.

Give those QBs strong running games and elite defense I'm sure most QBs wouldn't push 450 attempts.

Look it Hasselbeck in 2005 compared 2007.

Any time the Seahawks needed Russell Wilson to step-up and play above the philosphy he has came through.

He's the best young QB in the NFL, and his elitism doesn't come from his production but his ability to be a unique QB as well as be an extraordinary leader on and off the field.

Not many QBs can do what Wilson has done, come in as a non-1st rounder, out compete a pair veteran QBs, both of whom the team were entrenched in more so that a rookie Wilson. Wilson never faltered he took control of his destiny, of the clubhouse, and earn the respect of his teammates. He earned their passion and their dedication through his passion and dedication. The result of it became 28-9 record in two years, 4-1 in the play-offs, a Superbowl Championship, and those 9 losses resulted in a mere 41 points with no losses greater than 7 points.

How many of the so called elite QBs have done that in their first two seasons... John Clayton and half the nation can STFU.

 

[Basis4day]

I used to like Clayton, and then i caught on to his verbal tics. ("Well let's put it this way", "But also too"). It's becomes unbearable at times and i can't understand why that moronic Notre Dame fan is a scheduled caller on his show.

The the Lynch thing at media day happened and i don't listen to his show anymore and fast forward through his appearances.

 

[Russ Willstrong]

They underestimate the fire inside the midget robot. He might talk and act like an automaton but deep in his programming isn't just a desire to be human but superhuman. To be THE greatest football throwing human ever. One who NEVER sleeps and does everything ever asked of him. One who visits the sick and cures the stupid... I'm amazed that Mel Kiper has begun to come around sooner than expected.

 

[Happypuppy]

Clayton weighs time playing at an elite level as very important. I do not see based on that criteria that he was out of line