John Clayton = official GOOFBALL mode

[WilsonMVP]

Question to those who get upset over Wilson's ranking in the pundits' eyes, or whether he's considered elite...

Do you think Ben Roethlisberger is elite? Honest question.

I dont think he is. He is very very good but not elite. How can you be elite when you have a 20 something QB rating in the superbowl and STILL win. You obv had no part in even winning that.

Eh, Wilson posted a 49.7 rating in our OT victory against Houston. Does that mean he's not elite, either?

Every QB has a garbage game here and there that still results in victory. Montana had a few. Hell, Dan Marino had a game where he posted a 2.7 rating, threw a pick six, completed only one pass, and was pulled for Damon Huard... but the Dolphins still won. Does that change his status?

You don't become elite or not elite based on a single game. It's based on career production... and Roethlisberger's first two years are very close to what Wilson's done thus far. Add in the fact that Roethlisberger has accomplished more than Wilson has, and I think you'd have to rank him ahead of Wilson. Wilson's off to what is among the best starts for a QB in NFL history, and it seems likely that he'll be one of the top QBs in the league for a long time. He'll definitely earn that elite status.

But whether he's there now really depends on how you define elite. If it's about great YPA, protecting the ball, making plays at clutch moments, being a leader the entire team looks to... well, yeah, he's elite. But then, so are a lot of other QBs. If it's more about being the focal point of the offense and succeeding with efficiency and explosiveness... maybe he's not there yet. Maybe just due to how Carroll likes to operate, he never will be.

I never said Wilson was ranked ahead of Big Ben I just said Big Ben is not truly Elite as I think only Brady, Manning and possibly Rodgers and Brees are the only QBs in that area.

 

[pocketprotector]

Clayton also had the undefeated Chiefs ranked ahead of the one loss Seahawks in his power rankings at some point last season. The justification for all of his rankings of this sort are about as deep as a kiddie pool.

 

[Tokadub]

If you don't consider Roethlisberger elite, it's hard to call Wilson elite if you're being truly objective.

I think Russell is clearly WAY better than Roethlisberger if you compare their first two seasons. And even without stats when you watch Wilson play he just does ELITE THINGS ALL THE TIME! He does things that nobody else in the league can do, yet he is extremely well rounded. If Russell Wilson is not elite, I don't know who is.

But as for the stats for the first 2 seasons:

Russel Wilson:
Touch Downs: 52
Interceptions: 19
Total Passing Yards: 6,475
Yards per Pass Attempt: 8.1
Completion %: 63.6%
Total Rushing Yards: 1,028
Yards per Rush Attempt: 5.4
QB Rating: 100.6



Ben Roethlisberger:
Touch Downs: 34
Interceptions: 20
Total Passing Yards: 5,006
Yards per Pass Attempt: 8.9
Completion %: 64.6%
Total Rushing Yards: 213
Yards per Rush Attempt: 2.4
QB Rating: 98.4


So overall Wilson has had a much better first 2 seasons in my opinion. Roethlisberger is pretty good but he's lacking in several areas in comparison to Wilson.

Touchdown to interception ratio:
Wilson is 2.73 TD/INT
Roethlesberger is 1.7 TD/INT

That's a HUGE difference. Wilson is like 2nd all time at this rate only behind Aaron Rodgers if he stays at 2.73. Roethlesberger's 1.7 is not even close here.

Wilson also had 800 attempts while Roethlesberger had 563. That's on average over 100 more attempts per season, so if you want to go on John Clayton's argument that all that matters is total yards and how involved the QB is in the offense Russell clearly wins here with over 1,400 more passing yards in the first 2 seasons.

Part of this disparity is that Roethlesberger missed 6 games in his first 2 seasons. Staying healthy is another edge that goes to Wilson. By taking the average attempts per game played Roethlesberger is at 21.65 while Wilson is at 25. So you could argue the Seahawks rely more on Wilson than the Steelers did on Roethlesberger.

Wilson also has over 800 more rushing yards and his yards per rush attempt is more than double that of Roethlesberger.

Russell has over 6 runs for 20+ yards in 2 seasons. Roethlesberger has 6 runs for 20+ in his ENTIRE CAREER two of them being his rookie season.


I must admit Roethlesberger has some slight edges over Wilson:

He's 1% higher completion percentage:
.8 yards more per pass attempt
Wilson has 4 fumbles and Roethlesberger had 2 (But Roeth's career average is 2 per season just like Wilson so far)

I think that's it... Wilson also has a higher QB rating, the first player to go over 100 in both of his first two seasons.

While Roethlesberger does have a very slight edge in those 3 stats, I REALLY would love to see what would of happened to him playing behind our offensive line last year. NO WAY he takes us to a Super Bowl win behind our O-line his stats would be WAY down too.

If you total their passing and rushing stats in the first 2 seasons:

Wilson: 7,503 total yards /32 games = 234.47 yards per game
Roethlesberger: 5219 total yards /32 games = 163.1 yards per game

So Wilson is averaging about 71.4 more yards per game his first two seasons.

If you want to factor in Roethlesbergers injuries it would be:

Roethlesberger: 5219 total yards /26 games played = 200.73 yards per game

So Russell averaged over 33 more yards per game even if you want to include Roethlesberger missing games which is kinda a big deal in my opinion.

So I think it's pretty clear Russell is far superior to Roethlesberger when you compare their first 2 seasons.

 

[irocdave]

Man the offseason sucks. Way to much sensitivity from our fan base is exposed.

We got the love, hell, how many commercials do you still see showing the Hawks glory in the SB?

Wilson is a great young talent, he is NOT ELITE. I hate that term as it is only applicable for portions of any players career. Wilson can and more importantly will be elite but isn't there yet. I don't get how so called NFL fans can say otherwise. The comparison of RW to Ben the rapist is a good one. I hated that guy, he did nothing in the SB against the Hawks and all you heard was how young he was and the hype building up to the SB was partly about him being elite. He wasn't and was about as far from elite as a QB could get in the 1st Hawks SB.
But he won another and did have an impact even though the Steelers used the same formula. Nothing wrong with that if your not on the wrong end of the loss.

RW played well in his SB win. He didn't have to but he did. In hind sight the game was over after MS's pick six. The D outscored Denvers offense in the game. The passing production of RW didn't matter.

To the fans getting upset at mediots, just chill. We got our trophy and respect for the team and the fans.

When Lynch retires / gets cut, the D isn't the best in the league and RW has that elite contract limiting who they can keep / sign in FA is when we will find out if he is elite. Stop with the crowning until that happens in a year or two and just enjoy being the best team in the NFL now and going in to the 2014 season.

 

[plyka]

Let's face it fellas, Clayton isn't an analyst. Looking for analysis coming from him is a joke. The man is a reporter, he has contacts and works without rest. The reason he is saying this about Wilson is because that's what some in the national media are saying regarding Wilson. That's why Clayton has little to no logic in his statements. He is "reporting" what the analysts are saying. In other words he is just repeating what they say verbatim.

 

[volsunghawk]

I REALLY would love to see what would of happened to him playing behind our offensive line last year. NO WAY he takes us to a Super Bowl win behind our O-line his stats would be WAY down too.

Roethlisberger has 2 SB rings while playing behind incredibly poor O-lines. They might not have ranked 32nd in pass protection like ours did last season, but the Steelers' O-lines have been consistently among the worst in the league during Roethlisberger's entire career.

 

[McGruff]

Okay, lets get rid of two arguments commonly used to distract from the discussion

Remove argument #1 - The legacy argument. Ranking current elite QB's is not about how long you've played. Its about how good you are right now.
Remove argument #2 - The future potential argument. Too subjective.

So that leaves us with one question . . . who would you want for your QB in 2014? Where would RW rank in that list?

IMO he'd be top five, maybe top three.

 

[pmedic920]

Okay, lets get rid of two arguments commonly used to distract from the discussion

Remove argument #1 - The legacy argument. Ranking current elite QB's is not about how long you've played. Its about how good you are right now.
Remove argument #2 - The future potential argument. Too subjective.

So that leaves us with one question . . . who would you want for your QB in 2014? Where would RW rank in that list?

IMO he'd be top five, maybe top three.

In your terms I would not put #3 RW any place other than top spot.
I couldn't pick a current QB that I'd rather see in his spot.

 

[Escamillo]

Question to those who get upset over Wilson's ranking in the pundits' eyes, or whether he's considered elite...

Do you think Ben Roethlisberger is elite? Honest question.

First of all, what does "elite" even mean?
It must mean something higher than HOF, since Bradshaw is HOF, yet people bust out laughing if you call him "elite". And if you put too many people in the "elite" category then the category becomes meaningless to begin with.
I heard a recent discussion on some sports radio station (I forget where, I was listening to it on the internet), where they said the term "elite QB" is a recent term that came about when people were trying to determine if Eli was a top QB or not after his first SB win (since the consensus was that he's a mediocre QB that came up big in the SB, so does that qualify for "elite" status?).

I don't consider Big Ben elite. I do consider him an upper-echelon QB that the opposing team has to be concerned about. Like Stabler, Pastorini, Bartkowski, guys like that. I don't consider him as good as Brady, Peyton, or Rodgers. I do put him above Ryan, another QB whom I don't consider Ryan "elite", though the national media declared him such.

 

[Escamillo]

I said this in a previous thread. NFL Films' Greg Cosell says that the consensus across the league's NFL head coaches is that RW is merely an "above average" QB. And Cosell says that NFL coaches bust out laughing if anyone says that RW is anywhere near as good as Luck. So Clayton is merely parroting what the league consensus is. I think that consensus is kind of like "Beltway narrative", a conventional wisdom that takes a life of its own and not based on anything concrete.

 

[Tokadub]

This "league consensus" nonsense is half the problem. Do these guys have eyeballs???

Out of all the national pundits spewing off this watered down bologna crap you would think John Clayton would be the one guy who actually knows the Seahawks.

But yet he still says Wilson is ranked 12-14 in the NFL. I just can't believe this crap. Anyone who has watched every Seahawk game the last 2 season would have a hard time saying Wilson is not in the top 5... at least that's where I have him.

 

[JMR]

I dont see why calling Clayton out on his BS is a mark of insecurity. What he said was goofy, and he should be flailed for it.

Elite? Who cares about that label -- there aren't 13 QBs better than RW, no way. I think he's #5, but I probably have him higher than most.

 

[plyka]

I said this in a previous thread. NFL Films' Greg Cosell says that the consensus across the league's NFL head coaches is that RW is merely an "above average" QB. And Cosell says that NFL coaches bust out laughing if anyone says that RW is anywhere near as good as Luck. So Clayton is merely parroting what the league consensus is. I think that consensus is kind of like "Beltway narrative", a conventional wisdom that takes a life of its own and not based on anything concrete.

ding ding ding...this one has it.

Clayton is famous not because of incredible wit or deep analysis. Clayton is famous due to hard work and time. He works his contacts hard, and he has been around a long time. Clayton just repeats what he hears from his contacts, logic is not really necessary. If the consensus was that Luck is a pretty young girl, Clayton would come out talking about how hot that Luck girl is.

 

[JMR]

Clayton was doing more than just reporting the consensus of NFL coaches. He was offering his own personal ranking of RW against all other QBs, and he put him in the 12-14 range with justification essentially being he hasn't thrown for 4k yards in a season yet.

 

[razor150]

If you have to justify why Russell Wilson isn't putting up all these passing yards to make a case for him then your arguement is weak to begin with. I love Russell Wilson as much as the next fan, but if I was putting a list together of the best QBs of right now, and not future, I doubt he'd crack the top 10 much less top 5. Serious bias by fans wearing Seahawk colored glasses can only do that. Outside of this forum the only people looking goofy is those saying Wilson is top 5.

The sensitivity to reporters and perceived slights they give this team has completely gone overboard this off season.

 

[WilsonMVP]

If you have to justify why Russell Wilson isn't putting up all these passing yards to make a case for him then your arguement is weak to begin with. I love Russell Wilson as much as the next fan, but if I was putting a list together of the best QBs of right now, and not future, I doubt he'd crack the top 10 much less top 5. Serious bias by fans wearing Seahawk colored glasses can only do that. Outside of this forum the only people looking goofy is those saying Wilson is top 5.

The sensitivity to reporters and perceived slights they give this team has completely gone overboard this off season.

Since when do yards matter above all else..im being serious. He was 16th in the nfl in yards yet he had more TDs than 7 QBS ahead of him and he was tied with another one. I thought the point was to score not put up yards. Those QBs apart from Newton also threw 150 more passes than Wilson did. That would come out to about 6 games more of throws if you go by Wilsons avg ammount of throws per game yet they STILL scored less than he did.

I guess if we were to judge QBs by just Yards Eli Manning would be better than Wilson was this year because he had 3800 yards, lets just forget about the 27 interceptions he threw with his 18 TDS for a 69.4 rating. He had more yards than Wilson so he MUST be better.

Or Luck, the Media Darling that can do no wrong. He had 3822 yards too so he must be automatically better. With 163 more attempts he scored 3 less TDs than Wilson did and didnt even break 90 QB rating.

Can anyone explain to me how Wilson has a seemingly low yardage total, low attempts total...YET....he is the 2nd ALL TIME for TDs in his first 2 years. That means given his opportunites he scores probably better than almost any other QB in NFL history. And SCORING should be the #1/#2 stat along there with Turnovers.

Mannings first two years he had 52 Passing TDs just like Wilson but he did it on 1108 attempts. Wilson did it with 800 attempts. So it took Manning 308 more attempts to do what Wilson did his first 2 years.

Luck has 1197 attempts so far in 2 seasons and only 46 passing TDs. So 6 less TDs on 397 more attempts. Very impressive. That is basically an entire season of attempts more than Wilson.

I dont care if Wilson gets called elite but the two things that you can and SHOULD call him are a WINNER and EFFICIENT

 

[Kixkahn]

The thing I find ironic about "elite" quarterbacks is that they make a HUGE deal about yards passed in a season. The reason I find it that way is... It really doesn't matter how many yards are passed for if you can't get it into the endzone and get wins. Take Detroit for example, lots of yards and a great receiver but they can't get the results that matter. Same with receivers and running backs it doesn't matter how many yards if you don't get touchdowns and wins. We won the superbowl!!! Go Hawks.

 

[dontbelikethat]

Those that are taking offense of Clayton,etc.'s ranking, and then giving their own ranking, do you guys watch all or most of the games of the other QB's your ranking ahead/behind of Wilson? Not a real fair assessment if you're goona watch all 16 games Wilson has played in a season and only 2-3 games of all the other QB's or only watch them when they play the Hawks with the best defense in the league.

Wilson is a franchise QB to me, personally don't care to much about rankings, but if you do, it makes the most sense to try and be as fair as possible to get a ranking that's not incredibly off base.

 

[razor150]

If you have to justify why Russell Wilson isn't putting up all these passing yards to make a case for him then your arguement is weak to begin with. I love Russell Wilson as much as the next fan, but if I was putting a list together of the best QBs of right now, and not future, I doubt he'd crack the top 10 much less top 5. Serious bias by fans wearing Seahawk colored glasses can only do that. Outside of this forum the only people looking goofy is those saying Wilson is top 5.

The sensitivity to reporters and perceived slights they give this team has completely gone overboard this off season.

Since when do yards matter above all else..im being serious. He was 16th in the nfl in yards yet he had more TDs than 7 QBS ahead of him and he was tied with another one. I thought the point was to score not put up yards. Those QBs apart from Newton also threw 150 more passes than Wilson did. That would come out to about 6 games more of throws if you go by Wilsons avg ammount of throws per game yet they STILL scored less than he did.

I guess if we were to judge QBs by just Yards Eli Manning would be better than Wilson was this year because he had 3800 yards, lets just forget about the 27 interceptions he threw with his 18 TDS for a 69.4 rating. He had more yards than Wilson so he MUST be better.

Or Luck, the Media Darling that can do no wrong. He had 3822 yards too so he must be automatically better. With 163 more attempts he scored 3 less TDs than Wilson did and didnt even break 90 QB rating.

Can anyone explain to me how Wilson has a seemingly low yardage total, low attempts total...YET....he is the 2nd ALL TIME for TDs in his first 2 years. That means given his opportunites he scores probably better than almost any other QB in NFL history. And SCORING should be the #1/#2 stat along there with Turnovers.

Mannings first two years he had 52 Passing TDs just like Wilson but he did it on 1108 attempts. Wilson did it with 800 attempts. So it took Manning 308 more attempts to do what Wilson did his first 2 years.

Luck has 1197 attempts so far in 2 seasons and only 46 passing TDs. So 6 less TDs on 397 more attempts. Very impressive. That is basically an entire season of attempts more than Wilson.

I dont care if Wilson gets called elite but the two things that you can and SHOULD call him are a WINNER and EFFICIENT

I get what you arr saying and nothing I said was meant to be a negative against Wilson. I think Wilson will be an elite QB, and what you posted points to that, but I don't think he is there yet.

As far as Luck and Stafford go in a list of QBs I don't know. I never placed anybody in a list. Neither of them are elite yet either, though both could be with better teams and Stafford's case coaching.

 

[BeerHawker]

The existence and prevalence of the old boys' NFL "braintrust" is the single best weapon in the PC/JS arsenal. May it thrive in its cesspool of murky ignorance. For two seasons, RW has ignored the absence of an offensive line, challenged by injury, inexperience and talent deficit. He has ignored the injuries to his wide receivers. There are 3 QB's in the league that could have got the same results in the circumstances the last two years. And they'd be the quick release veterans all going to the HoF. Stafford? He'd be in a wheelchair today. And young neckbeard would be icing his backside 40 hours a week watching his interception film.