Importance of the Center position

Did the lack of a stud Center impact Seahawks playoff and suprBowl chances?

  • Yes, definitely an underrated cause after Unger was traded.

    Votes: 43 74.1%
  • Maybe, but Seahawks had good enough players so it shouldn’t have mattered.

    Votes: 11 19.0%
  • Nope, the Center position is easy to replace and it doesn’t matter.

    Votes: 4 6.9%

  • Total voters
    58

Maelstrom787

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Why did our offense run fine last season with Blythe, who was a cheap vet pickup on a 1m guaranteed / 4m contract?
Centers block less than any other position on the line. If the center is schematically and fundamentally sound, even less talented ones like Blythe can keep an offense ticking.

I think what separates great centers from replaceable ones, given that they can communicate effectively, is mostly run blocking, truth be told.
 

AgentDib

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To be clear, I'm not arguing against drafting a center. We could get a top center prospect well into the draft because they have lower importance than the other positions. If you're deciding between WR7, CB8 and your top center prospect then the difference in talent can outweigh the positional value.

It's just bonkers to think that of all of our shortcomings from 2015-2022, play at center position has been what has held us back. Take the 2018 WC loss to Dallas as a completely random example. If you had the chance to improve that roster, would one of your first 10 moves really be to upgrade Justin Britt?

Just on offense we needed a third WR better than Jaron Brown and David Moore. TEs better than Dickson and Vannett. G upgrades for Fluker and Sweezy. RT better than Ifedi. RB depth behind Carson way better than McKissic and Davis. Then on defense we couldn't stop Zeke, only had 1 sack and Dak had a passer rating over 100 when targeting any of Shaq Griffin, Akeem King or Justin Coleman.

That doesn't even get to our biggest problem, which was having Kam, Earl, Dissly, Prosise, and Maxwell on the IR list. Our centers have actually been available on gamedays over the years which is one of the best characteristics to have.

Overall, the line did run block well, but if this team is to convert 3rd and 1 or 2 yards via the run it cannot allow penetration right up the gut. Same with pressure in the face of the QB.

Many ways to fix the problem, and I do not want the team to underestimate the importance.
An outside zone scheme repeatedly running an open field back like Walker into the A gap is probably not a recipe for success no matter who our interior OL is. PFF grades certainly aren't everything, but Blythe was their second highest graded player on offense during that wildcard loss to the 49ers. Replacing him with a better center wouldn't have changed the outcome.

As you say, there are other ways to fix the lack of an interior running game. For starters, we ran gap 30% of the time last year and had success pulling Lewis and Cross over to the right side. The offense gets an enormous advantage in that they choose where the ball is going, so you can move your blockers to gain an advantage, maximize your best players and hide your weak players. That's a fundamental advantage over defense where if you have a weak link, you can't hide it because the offense is obviously going to chose to go there over and over.

A short yardage back would also improve the issue. Walker did fine in that game for only getting 16 carries, but Dallas had 6 uninspiring carries and both have way too much variance in their styles to be comfortable options if you need one yard.

We could also use an upgrade at RG. Jackson had to play the entire wildcard game and was the worst run blocker on the line by a large margin. I'm less sold on Haynes than Brown, Haynes is at the more important position, and yet there's more discussion about center than guard from many Seahawk fans.

We could also add possession receivers that keep the defense honest on short yardage. That could be a flex tight end or slot receiver who can move the chains over the middle of the field, or a third down back with good hands. Or adding a huge TE like Darnell Washington would upgrade the run blocking more than a replacement center would.
 

Mick063

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Part of the issue with running inside the tackles is that we have a running back that quite predictably bounces to the outside every time he sees the flash of opposing jersey color. It is a feast or famine move. An occasional homerun or more commonly, stuffed for no gain. Not really reliable as a steady chain mover though. It will eventually become less productive as opponents pick up the tendency in film study. Don't get me wrong, the guy is a real threat to take it the distance when running outside the tackles, but that is primarily when the play is designed to do so, and this thread is about running the ball inside.

Sometimes you just have to lower your center of gravity and leg drive through the opponent. Sometimes it delivers a broken tackle for you. Or in the case of "Beastquake", a historic inside gap run, multiple tackles are broken. Our rook has to start going where the play is designed to go. Watch Pollard for the Cowboys. He runs inside intelligently and very effectively.
 
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nwHawk

nwHawk

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To be clear, I'm not arguing against drafting a center. We could get a top center prospect well into the draft because they have lower importance than the other positions. If you're deciding between WR7, CB8 and your top center prospect then the difference in talent can outweigh the positional value.

It's just bonkers to think that of all of our shortcomings from 2015-2022, play at center position has been what has held us back. Take the 2018 WC loss to Dallas as a completely random example. If you had the chance to improve that roster, would one of your first 10 moves really be to upgrade Justin Britt?

Just on offense we needed a third WR better than Jaron Brown and David Moore. TEs better than Dickson and Vannett. G upgrades for Fluker and Sweezy. RT better than Ifedi. RB depth behind Carson way better than McKissic and Davis. Then on defense we couldn't stop Zeke, only had 1 sack and Dak had a passer rating over 100 when targeting any of Shaq Griffin, Akeem King or Justin Coleman.

That doesn't even get to our biggest problem, which was having Kam, Earl, Dissly, Prosise, and Maxwell on the IR list. Our centers have actually been available on gamedays over the years which is one of the best characteristics to have.


An outside zone scheme repeatedly running an open field back like Walker into the A gap is probably not a recipe for success no matter who our interior OL is. PFF grades certainly aren't everything, but Blythe was their second highest graded player on offense during that wildcard loss to the 49ers. Replacing him with a better center wouldn't have changed the outcome.

As you say, there are other ways to fix the lack of an interior running game. For starters, we ran gap 30% of the time last year and had success pulling Lewis and Cross over to the right side. The offense gets an enormous advantage in that they choose where the ball is going, so you can move your blockers to gain an advantage, maximize your best players and hide your weak players. That's a fundamental advantage over defense where if you have a weak link, you can't hide it because the offense is obviously going to chose to go there over and over.

A short yardage back would also improve the issue. Walker did fine in that game for only getting 16 carries, but Dallas had 6 uninspiring carries and both have way too much variance in their styles to be comfortable options if you need one yard.

We could also use an upgrade at RG. Jackson had to play the entire wildcard game and was the worst run blocker on the line by a large margin. I'm less sold on Haynes than Brown, Haynes is at the more important position, and yet there's more discussion about center than guard from many Seahawk fans.

We could also add possession receivers that keep the defense honest on short yardage. That could be a flex tight end or slot receiver who can move the chains over the middle of the field, or a third down back with good hands. Or adding a huge TE like Darnell Washington would upgrade the run blocking more than a replacement center would.
I agree with most of this, the Dallas game, which I was at, was especially frustrating. Different scheme and same result. I’m a little concerned Evan White could be B.J. Finney part 2, at best I see him as a smoke screen signing and not a long term answer.
 

Ozzy

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He clearly wasn't to anyone who actually keyed in on him, especially with the sack merchant he had to deal with at quarterback.
Its easy to now blame everything Russ but its lazy. Seattle also lead the league or were near the top in quick pressures which is an oline stat. Wilson's ability to extend plays yes lead to some more sacks but it also gave us plenty of wins as well that most QB's wouldn't have gotten.

Our line wasn't very good and its a valid criticism of the staff to be had.
 

AgentDib

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Its easy to now blame everything Russ but its lazy. Seattle also lead the league or were near the top in quick pressures which is an oline stat.
Some of those quick pressures are the QB missing blitzes. It's tough to really compare across teams when schemes and QB play differ so much.
I agree with most of this, the Dallas game, which I was at, was especially frustrating. Different scheme and same result. I’m a little concerned Evan White could be B.J. Finney part 2, at best I see him as a smoke screen signing and not a long term answer.
Evan Brown was an average center in 2021 with good pass protection and OK run blocking. Surely at best he could replicate or improve on that?

Assuming we can't have stars at every position, is there another position you would prefer to go cheap at rather then center?
 

Maelstrom787

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Its easy to now blame everything Russ but its lazy. Seattle also lead the league or were near the top in quick pressures which is an oline stat. Wilson's ability to extend plays yes lead to some more sacks but it also gave us plenty of wins as well that most QB's wouldn't have gotten.

Our line wasn't very good and its a valid criticism of the staff to be had.
It adds a large degree of difficulty to pass protection when your quarterback pirouettes into the edge rusher instead of climbing the pocket and negotiating space with some smarts.

But, please, continue calling the obviously good center bad and the most single-season sacked Bronco of all time a victim. Double down on that take all day.

Funny, it may be lazy now, but I blamed Russ in 2020 too when the jokers here discounted Pocic as an option at the spot. Lazy then too? Were you here?
 

Ozzy

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It adds a large degree of difficulty to pass protection when your quarterback pirouettes into the edge rusher instead of climbing the pocket and negotiating space with some smarts.

But, please, continue calling the obviously good center bad and the most single-season sacked Bronco of all time a victim. Double down on that take all day.

Funny, it may be lazy now, but I blamed Russ in 2020 too when the jokers here discounted Pocic as an option at the spot. Lazy then too? Were you here?
I just think your wrong and the stats support that. Seattle had more quick pressures than anyone in the league multiple times during Wilson's tenure. Is a sack in 1.2 seconds Wilsons fault? Wilson causes sacks because of his style, no one disputes that. it definitely makes a linemans job harder. It also helped propel a stagnant offense at times that if he didn't wasn't doing to do anything. People know know football also wouldn't argue we had a great line for multiple seasons while he was here. We had what was at the time one of the worst running offenses in the modern era? Was that Wilsons fault too since all those guys were dominant lineman?
 
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nwHawk

nwHawk

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I wouldn’t say cheap. I would say in a good center draft, let’s make sure we get one that fits our needs, scheme and has the capacity to impact the other players. If it means spending #37 to ensure that then you do it.

I want my QB to be able to step up in the pocket, I want continuity with the young line. I don’t want a 1 year rental every year.
 

Ozzy

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I wouldn’t say cheap. I would say in a good center draft, let’s make sure we get one that fits our needs, scheme and has the capacity to impact the other players. If it means spending #37 to ensure that then you do it.

I want my QB to be able to step up in the pocket, I want continuity with the young line. I don’t want a 1 year rental every year.
There are a couple in this years draft I think could help a ton. I feel pretty confident they grab one.
 

projectorfreak

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With regards to that bronco QB , I would be willing to bet actual cash money if I had any that his sacks problem will never go away but building from the trenches out always seems to me anyway to be by far the best way to build a team bar none
with geno getting sacked 46 times to russ' 55 when he thought he wouldn't have to carry the team anymore ,,lol is something I'm very doubtful he can ever get away from now that his legs have swapped spots with his gut
I never thought we had a great oline in the past but didn't for a second think they were as bad as most made them out to be and that was bcuz of russ so stats be dammed
We all watched the games and if you are a whack job like me sometimes you'd go back and rewatch games and replay certain plays over and over
A heck of a lot of those were on him especially against teams we played a lot cuz they knew what he was gonna do just malestrom said
I'll never forget von miller havin his number a few years ago , I think it was game 1 of the year just realize he made some of our guys look like crap when they did nothing wrong but he was too predictable , just glad he's gone
We can't afford to get cute with the draft but I have faith
 

hawkfan68

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It adds a large degree of difficulty to pass protection when your quarterback pirouettes into the edge rusher instead of climbing the pocket and negotiating space with some smarts.

But, please, continue calling the obviously good center bad and the most single-season sacked Bronco of all time a victim. Double down on that take all day.

Funny, it may be lazy now, but I blamed Russ in 2020 too when the jokers here discounted Pocic as an option at the spot. Lazy then too? Were you here?
The 2011 Seahawk QBs were sacked 50 times. Last season, Geno was sacked 46 times. This is more a systemic issue. RW's sack numbers are in the same ballpark as some of the other QBs under Pete Carroll's tenure with the Seahawks.

2011 Seahawks - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2011.htm
Geno Smith stats - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitGe00.htm
Russell Wilson - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm

I don't care what RW does with the Broncos.
 
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pittpnthrs

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The 2011 Seahawk QBs were sacked 50 times. Last season, Geno was sacked 46 times. This is more a systemic issue. RW's sack numbers are in the same ballpark as some of the other QBs under Pete Carroll's tenure with the Seahawks.

2011 Seahawks - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sea/2011.htm
Geno Smith stats - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SmitGe00.htm
Russell Wilson - https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WilsRu00.htm

I don't care what RW does with the Broncos.

Exactly. I will admit that Russ caused sacks on his own, but he is broken because the line stunk for so long that he had to run for his life constantly. Its a fact that Pete Carroll doesnt put a lot of significance on the Oline. The numbers support that. Wilson was tired of it and shouted for improvement in that area and didnt receive it.
 

IndyHawk

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Exactly. I will admit that Russ caused sacks on his own, but he is broken because the line stunk for so long that he had to run for his life constantly. Its a fact that Pete Carroll doesnt put a lot of significance on the Oline. The numbers support that. Wilson was tired of it and shouted for improvement in that area and didnt receive it.
Eh..
He broke himself by not learning to play QB properly,there was no need for
him to run all the time to create.
He played the way he chose to by going Off Script and Winging it.
Why pay for a great line that isn't going to be used most of the time for set play(s)?
He is among the most sacked for a good reason and that is himself.
 

pittpnthrs

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Eh..
He broke himself by not learning to play QB properly,there was no need for
him to run all the time to create.
He played the way he chose to by going Off Script and Winging it.
Why pay for a great line that isn't going to be used most of the time for set play(s)?
He is among the most sacked for a good reason and that is himself.

But there was need for him to run and create plays all the time. The guy was getting killed constantly. Happens to every QB that plays for Pete Carroll. Why people refuse to admit that is beyond me.
 

IndyHawk

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But there was need for him to run and create plays all the time. The guy was getting killed constantly. Happens to every QB that plays for Pete Carroll. Why people refuse to admit that is beyond me.
I didn't see Geno getting killed and running all over the place
He took less sacks and played all 18 unlike #3 who took 55?
In 3 less games?
 

Scout

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Drafting a center is worthwhile in that it allows for flexibility on the line and also save cap space to be used on locking up the tackles for example.
 

LickMyNuts

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Exactly. I will admit that Russ caused sacks on his own, but he is broken because the line stunk for so long that he had to run for his life constantly. Its a fact that Pete Carroll doesnt put a lot of significance on the Oline. The numbers support that. Wilson was tired of it and shouted for improvement in that area and didnt receive it.
If he was so worried about it why did he refuse to throw checkdowns for most of his career?

Seems like an easy way to not get hit.
 

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