Geno only needs 150 passing yards to...

[Sun Tzu]

I don't really see people tearing him down? I think its super cool that a guy worked his ass off for 10 years and when he finally got his chance he played much better than everyone expected. It's been a blast to watch and I'm as happy as anyone for him. But that doesn't mean we can't question his second half fall off from the first half, if they really want to go back to paying a QB 30+ million after paying the last guy that much instead of a rookie contract for 5 years or if he is the right choice for years moving foward. It doesn't have to be an either or.

I personally think if you have a guy in the draft you love then you save the big contract and you're set up for a decade instead of a couple of years and its much cheaper and I wouldn't pass on an elite prospect for a guy who's had 1 really good year that can even be broken down by two halves. I feel good enough though that if they don't love a QB then sure take an elite defensive player and roll with Geno. I think its a real good problem to have that they find themselves in.

Did you think this when RW was on a big contract and we had discussions about trading RW for high picks?

You and several others here defended RW when he was a Hawk on a big contract acting like a diva and handcuffing the team. This group attacked anyone who brought up legitimate criticism of RW, yet now this group is quick to criticize Geno after every down game (Geno's bad games this year are better than RW's best games this year). This group attacked anyone who suggested it was time to move on from RW in exchange for draft picks, often bringing up the valid point that a rookie QB is just as likely to be a bust as a competent NFL QB. Yet now, this same group wants to move on from a better QB than RW in favor of the cap savings of a rookie QB. Your bias and hypocrisy are evident to anyone who consistently reads this forum.

And, most telling of all, this group continues to defend RW now that he is gone. You, soulfish, hgwellz, and others should recognize that you have a bias in favor of RW which is affecting your judgment and creating hypocritical opinions.

 

[Hawknballs]

Please stop using the word "attacked" when what you actually mean is "disagreed".

 

[Ozzy]

Did you think this when RW was on a big contract and we had discussions about trading RW for high picks?

You and several others here defended RW when he was a Hawk on a big contract acting like a diva and handcuffing the team. This group attacked anyone who brought up legitimate criticism of RW, yet now this group is quick to criticize Geno after every down game (Geno's bad games this year are better than RW's best games this year). This group attacked anyone who suggested it was time to move on from RW in exchange for draft picks, often bringing up the valid point that a rookie QB is just as likely to be a bust as a competent NFL QB. Yet now, this same group wants to move on from a better QB than RW in favor of the cap savings of a rookie QB. Your bias and hypocrisy are evident to anyone who consistently reads this forum.

And, most telling of all, this group continues to defend RW now that he is gone. You, soulfish, hgwellz, and others should recognize that you have a bias in favor of RW which is affecting your judgment and creating hypocritical opinions.

So your side by default is valid and the opposing view is biased because it disagrees with you? I would add like Hawknballs already said, "attacked" is a little strong considering we're discussing a football take that is subjective by definition. Then you use "this groups" historical position and claim it all as my own as bias and hypocrisy.

Your last statement makes zero sense. hgwellz simply said he thinks some of the criticism is a little goofy and over the top....in what world is that biased and/or hypocritical? Your whole post starts with a faulty premise and never recovers.

 

[Sun Tzu]

Please stop using the word "attacked" when what you actually mean is "disagreed".

Two entirely different words mate. And, no, I do not mean disagreed.

My entire career is disagreeing with clients, colleagues, government agencies, and various others. I spend every day in discourse, discussions, mediation, negotiations, and debates over disagreements. A disagreement is simply a lack of agreement/consensus. When engaged in discussions regarding disagreements, the focus is on the facts and circumstances of an issue and our differing opinions derived from those facts and circumstances.

On this site, we all disagree about a great many things regarding the Hawks every day. Some of us engage in discussions over our disagreements, and some of us use less productive methods of disagreeing.

Those who have defended, and continue to defend, RW, have historically formulated opinions derived from feelings and eschew fact-based arguments in favor of anecdotal evidence. This is poor form, but not "attacking" on its own. The problem comes when defending opinions that are derived from feelings and anecdotal evidence rather than facts. Without evidence to back up an opinion, the arguer often resorts to personal and character attacks. I stand by my use of the word attacking. I, and many others on .net, have been critical of RW and have been confronted with disparaging comments about our character rather than debates about the facts and circumstances. Soufish, Ivotuk, and BegMeach made some rather harsh comments about my character when I provided some insight on the possibility of RW being traded to Cleveland. They did not discuss the issue with me, they chose to make disparaging comments about my character because they disagreed with me.

 

[Ozzy]

If those three posters disparaged your character then why lump me, hgwells and others who didn’t?

Here is what I posted on the situation. I lean towards drafting a rookie with your top 3 pick if John falls in love with one but the great thing about Geno is he’s been good enough that your hand isn’t forced and you can go defense instead. I then said what a great position to be in because you have options. In what world is that a biased or hypocritical take or an attack on you?

 

[Sun Tzu]

So your side by default is valid and the opposing view is biased because it disagrees with you? I would add like Hawknballs already said, "attacked" is a little strong considering we're discussing a football take that is subjective by definition. Then you use "this groups" historical position and claim it all as my own as bias and hypocrisy.

Your last statement makes zero sense. hgwellz simply said he thinks some of the criticism is a little goofy and over the top....in what world is that biased and/or hypocritical? Your whole post starts with a faulty premise and never recovers.

When RW was negotiating a new contract, did you think we should "save the big contract" and look to the draft to "set up for a decade instead of a couple of years"? I think the answer to that given your post history is a resounding no.

I pointed out the dueling opinions. You held one opinion when we had RW, pay the big contract and stick with the known commodity, and a different opinion now with Geno, save on the QB position by passing on the big contract and looking to the draft.

My questions to you in regard to this are: Have you changed your opinion on the QB position with respect to importance and cap management? - or - Do you have a positive bias for RW, and/or a negative bias towards Geno? It seems to me that the quick trigger you and many others have with criticism of Geno combined with the continued support of RW suggests there is a slight bias going on. And, I think that is something you should consider.

I get the personal bias thing. It is well documented on .net, that I liked the LJ Collier pick (I still like the LJ Collier pick), and each year/game I am hoping/expecting to see him finally break out and prove me right (I assure you that if he ever does break out, I will be making the "I told you so" rounds). I recognize that I have a positive bias when it comes to Collier and the pick, and I do my best to keep that bias out of my assessments of the Hawks D.

 

[Hawknballs]

I pointed out the dueling opinions. You held one opinion when we had RW, pay the big contract and stick with the known commodity, and a different opinion now with Geno, save on the QB position by passing on the big contract and looking to the draft.

RW was considered to be on the way to the Hall of Fame up until this season, and Geno has not had remotely the kind of track record of success that RW had. You're comparing apples to oranges and the worst part is that it's not even relevant.

You're also talking about two QBs who are on the down slope of their careers, so how you/we regard them and their value vs. the draft is entirely different than the last time we gave wilson a big contract.

 

[Mad Dog]

Yeah, it goes beyond games played when talking QBs.

The rules are so different it is not even comparable.

Marino is the GOAT, pocket QB.

Young is the GOAT, dual threat QB.

And Brady is the GOAT, taking what the defense gives you QB, surpassing Joe Montana.

 

[Jville]

I wonder why we don't have a forum pool or poll going as to when Geno will seize the franchise record?

I'm guessing 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter.

 

[sutz]

I wonder why we don't have a forum pool or poll going as to when Geno will seize the franchise record?

I'm guessing 5 minutes into the 3rd quarter.

Well, mister 12,000, you could do that yourself if you really wanted to.

 

[Rat]

Is anyone else really enjoying this back-and-forth between Sun Tzu and PNW25/Hawknballs? This might be the most well-articulated fight I've ever seen on the internet.

 

[uncle fester]

Is anyone else really enjoying this back-and-forth between Sun Tzu and PNW25/Hawknballs? This might be the most well-articulated fight I've ever seen on the internet.

I am! It’s refreshing to read opposing viewpoints that doesn’t descend into throwing manure at each other.

(It’s also got me thinking about my own confirmation biases toward Wilson’s play over the last few years when posters mentioned here were pointing out the flaws, but that really is beside the point)

Carry on!

 

[themunn]

Did you think this when RW was on a big contract and we had discussions about trading RW for high picks?

You and several others here defended RW when he was a Hawk on a big contract acting like a diva and handcuffing the team. This group attacked anyone who brought up legitimate criticism of RW, yet now this group is quick to criticize Geno after every down game (Geno's bad games this year are better than RW's best games this year). This group attacked anyone who suggested it was time to move on from RW in exchange for draft picks, often bringing up the valid point that a rookie QB is just as likely to be a bust as a competent NFL QB. Yet now, this same group wants to move on from a better QB than RW in favor of the cap savings of a rookie QB. Your bias and hypocrisy are evident to anyone who consistently reads this forum.

And, most telling of all, this group continues to defend RW now that he is gone. You, soulfish, hgwellz, and others should recognize that you have a bias in favor of RW which is affecting your judgment and creating hypocritical opinions.

One key difference between the situation then and now is that we never had a top 5 pick in a year where Wilson was a FA the following, so we have a lot more optionality here. It's well known that JS loved Mahomes and Allen and maybe if we had a top 10 pick then we take them and spin off Wilson for picks - but we didn't and so ultimately you pay the premium to keep the guy who has been winning games for you consistently throughout his career, even if he does have flaws.

I'm actually in the camp that we should sign Geno in any case, but if JS thinks that one of the QBs in this class has Mahomes or Allen potential then of course we should also use the pick on them. For me it's far too high a risk to go into the draft without Geno locked up, what if we love a guy and the Texans take him 1st overall anyway? Without Geno we've ****** it.

If that guy goes exist then perhaps the best bet is to franchise him and wait and see. We are in a bit of a catch 22 situation where there are some glaring holes on the defense which if filled will instantly elevate the team and with the same QB we could be fighting among the leagues best teams, but at the same time we have an opportunity to draft a cheap QB and use the cap space to fill those gaps with elite FA players on 2nd contracts.

Ultimately 2013 we caught lightning in a bottle with multiple (arguably 5) HoF or borderline HoF players on rookie contracts, plus Bennett and Avril on cheap 1 year prove it deals that were absolute steals. We want to try and replicate as much of those building blocks as possible but if it was easy every team would do it.

 

[fenderbender123]

This is why I never understood why people fawn over cumulative stats over a career or a season. It's about averages, and when it counts.

The single season or career total yards, total receptions, total sacks, and all that have never meant anything all that great. Best to just scrub that part of the brain away.