Cowherd: Seattle Owes Russ

[hawksincebirth]

I dont think it's stats in a vacuum. You're choosing to look at Brees last year, but forgetting the number of years his teams did not make the playoffs. By your logic, does that not make Brees at fault for those seasons?

That's not only looking at facts in a vacuum, its hand selecting those that fit a narrow perspective.

Brees is a Hall of famer. Russ is a very good QB. Neither are faultless. But neither, even when their teams were poor, were the reasons why they didnt make the playoffs

The only narrow perspectives are the ones that can’t see the writing on the wall.
I addressed this in my previous posts, that is where we are headed now. No defense , good quarterback, mediocrity.
Could Russ of played better in much win game ? Is there nothing he can improve on ? Maybe beat a blitz with his arm ?

I’m looking at brees as a quarterback, your looking at Wilson as a god who has no flaws and is perfect
Pound for pound Wilson isn’t brees . As a quarterback, not to say he couldn’t learn these things but it’s Wilson’s 7th year.
What happens when we resign Wilson for record money and he loses a step or gets hurt and loses his agility.. can he sit in the pocket and beat the blitz ?

I'm looking at Russ as God?

I went from "using stats" to "hero worship" by pointing out the logical dlsw in your argument about wins as a barometer of success in comparison to another qb

"A point made and missed so.many times" as another repetitive poster likes to invoke

I worded that wrong , more like collectively...apologies. We will see how many wins we get this year . That’s what matters

 

[Uncle Si]

I dont think it's stats in a vacuum. You're choosing to look at Brees last year, but forgetting the number of years his teams did not make the playoffs. By your logic, does that not make Brees at fault for those seasons?

That's not only looking at facts in a vacuum, its hand selecting those that fit a narrow perspective.

Brees is a Hall of famer. Russ is a very good QB. Neither are faultless. But neither, even when their teams were poor, were the reasons why they didnt make the playoffs

The only narrow perspectives are the ones that can’t see the writing on the wall.
I addressed this in my previous posts, that is where we are headed now. No defense , good quarterback, mediocrity.
Could Russ of played better in much win game ? Is there nothing he can improve on ? Maybe beat a blitz with his arm ?

I’m looking at brees as a quarterback, your looking at Wilson as a god who has no flaws and is perfect
Pound for pound Wilson isn’t brees . As a quarterback, not to say he couldn’t learn these things but it’s Wilson’s 7th year.
What happens when we resign Wilson for record money and he loses a step or gets hurt and loses his agility.. can he sit in the pocket and beat the blitz ?

I'm looking at Russ as God?

I went from "using stats" to "hero worship" by pointing out the logical dlsw in your argument about wins as a barometer of success in comparison to another qb

"A point made and missed so.many times" as another repetitive poster likes to invoke

I worded that wrong , more like collectively...apologies. We will see how many wins we get this year . That’s what matters

It certainly does. I just dont think you can put the losses so squarely on Russ as some want to.

But... the team around him isn't as good as the past. So now he needs to be an even better QB as he was to help them win. That includes not taking bad sacks

 

[Sgt Largent]

Wilson's biggest problem is coaches and fans that can't accept the way he plays the game. Hopefully we will win this week by a score of 20 stay in the pockets to 10 stay in the pockets.

Do I wish Wilson would develop his presnap read ability and ability to throw with more anticipation based off of those reads? Sure. Due to his history of being able to extend plays, with his (elusiveness and quickness, not speed), he tends to gravitate towards seeing a fully open target as opposed to throwing to spots earlier in the down based on coverage and looks. Things that guys like Brady and Rodgers are very proficient at. He also shies away from the check down a little too often because of this play extending ability.

This absolute obsession with demanding he stand flat footed in the pocket "like all the good ones" is specifically robbing him of what makes him different (and better than a lot of other guys in the league). If I were working with him, I'd be moving his ass all over the place, while specifically working on breaking his habit of turning his back while moving. That's usually where he goes wrong, missing guys while scrambling because he dips deep instead of lateral or forward movement creating his time. If you want him in the pocket, foolishly robbing him of one of his special gifts, start hiring West Coast Coordinators, not play action guys. Need more coaches that coach the man, not their "system".

Without rewatching the game, I think I saw 2?, read option looks, one very specifically that I remember put him in a staring contest with the chubbiest Outside Linebacker on Denver's squad. He so thoroughly stuffed the ball in the RB's gut that I have no question it was a "read look" and not a "read check". That's a piss poor way to utilize a man of his ability.

My highschool mediocrity at the QB position back in the day taught me this, at 6' 3" plus, and taller than most all of my linemen, I still needed vision lanes and even then, some throws are purely trust, in your presnap read and in your receiver getting to his spot. The only QB's in the NFL that see it all must be genetically related to snails. Humans typically aren't known to be gifted with eye stalks. In those moments of blindness, I sure wished my cement feet worked a little better than they did...

P.S. ..and where in the hell are the RPO's. Carson Wentz can do it but not Wilson? NOBODY would be more suited, but POCKET! RUN BALL! THROW DEEP! ....sigh

First of all, being a good pocket passer is not "standing flat footed in the pocket". There is a lot going on there at the highest level of pocket passing. If a Quarterback is just standing there flat footed they are going to get Carr'd. Pocket manipulation is about setting up blocks and making subtle little movements to avoid pass rushers. This is how an immobile QB such as Brady or old man Manning bought time and beat pass rushers. The second component is the pre-snap read. This is where QB's make adjustments, and survey the field to see if they see openings. The next skill in a pocket passers repertoire is what many refer to as "throwing their guy open". You rely on your WR to run a good route, and you throw to where your receiver is going to be. If you get the proper read on the defense during the presnap this is very hard to defend against. This is how QB's like Brady are consistently able to elevate even mediocre WR's. The last and most important skill is the internal clock. A QB has to feel when pressure is bearing down on them if they want to be a successful pocket passer. If things get dicey either you default to your checkdown, run if you have a lane to do so, or throw the ball away.

Russell Wilson has failed to develop most of these skills throughout his career. He doesn't know how to move around in the pocket, and often times he walks himself into sacks. I've seen him try to pull his patented spin move in the pocket with no pressure on him, effectively walking himself into a sack. If he has room to step up, or take a running lane he tends to just hang 10+ yards away from his lineman which leads for an easier angle for pass rushers to take on Wilson. I've seen a few times where Duane Brown was yelling at Russ last season when he was first on the team. He makes life really hard on his blockers. Wilson waits until his receivers have two steps on a guy before he releases the ball, and he is very hesitant to throw one on one jump balls to even his biggest playmakers. The thing is most disconcerting is his lack of pre-snap control. He doesn't change plays often, he just kind of looks like he is there.

So why is this stuff important for Russ, he's been getting by just fine, right? WRONG. Last season Wilson was ineffective for three whole quarters. He was non-existent. You can't do that in the NFL and expect good results. He won us many games, but this whole "we win the game in the fourth quarter mantra" lost us many winnable games as well. In the NFL if you want an offense that isn't a burden you have to convert third downs and do the little things. Wilson has not been able to do this consistently throughout his career. His game is still VERY unpolished, Wilson is a player that is mostly operating off of instinct.

Wilson needs to start trying to refine this ability if he wants to have a long NFL career. He is entering an age where players start to slow down, and injuries start to mount. It will happen one day where he will be slower, and he won't be as agile as he once was. One injury could change how he plays, and approaches the game. If he is forced to hang in the pocket like most guys his career will be over unless he adapts. There will come a time where he needs to reinvent himself as a passer, and I for one am glad Schottenheimer recognizes this.

I've been seeing regression ever since 2015. He's looking more hesitant, and more gun shy, his mechanics are really inconsistent now, and it looks like he is in his own head. I think the combo of poor line play and Carroll's idiotic scheme is really getting to him. Carroll has been a boat anchor in regards to his development as a QB. Carroll really needs to take a step back and let those that specialize in offense do their work. We are not setting our QB up for success with this type of scheme.

First of all ( ) Not sure why you quoted my entire post only to reiterate much of it while phrasing it like we disagree.

"The second component is the pre-snap read."

Said that, "Do I wish Wilson would develop his presnap read ability and ability to throw with more anticipation based off of those reads? Sure.".

"The next skill in a pocket passers repertoire is what many refer to as "throwing their guy open". You rely on your WR to run a good route, and you throw to where your receiver is going to be.".

Said that too, "Due to his history of being able to extend plays, with his (elusiveness and quickness, not speed), he tends to gravitate towards seeing a fully open target as opposed to throwing to spots earlier in the down based on coverage and looks.

Me > Things that guys like Brady and Rodgers are very proficient at.".
You > "This is how QB's like Brady are consistently able to elevate even mediocre WR's.".

Now, you reprimanded me for my hyperbole (flat footed) which I am occasionally guilty of, but it's the only way I know how to fight back against the "Russ sucks" delusionals.

Now, my super summed up and concise opinion is this, "Too many clamor for Wilson to SUBTRACT from his game to get better, while I argue that he needs to ADD to his game to continue to improve. I hope Schotty feels like I do, but I'm wary of his intentions (as evidenced by virtually zero play design in the first game that threatened the defense with Wilson's legs). Small sample size so I'll try to be patient... :les:

Random thoughts addressing other posts in this thread:

1)'Wilson has been consistently regressing'> Our 1st half offense (sometimes 3rd Q as well) was wildly inconsistent, yes, but MVP was on the lips of many talking heads throughout last season, due to the absolute atrocity of skill surrounding Mr. Wilson on his side of the ball. Whether you agree at all or in part, you must recognize that "experts" do not mention regressing players in those sentences. OUR ENTIRE TEAM REGRESSED, and Wilson was almost single handedly floating the boat on offense (you scream, but 1Q-3Q! I say those were Pete Ball Q's). A consensus super stud (Aaron Rodgers) has how many Super Bowls? How many years played? How many missed/early playoff exits? How many injuries from a purported pocket master manipulator? Football is HEAVILY weighted to the QB position, but it takes more. Much more.

2) 'Seahawks won a SB in SPITE of Russ'> (That's almost a direct quote in this thread, believe it or not). This is shallow thought. Our defense was tremendous, almost as good at football as they were self aggrandizement. Wilson matched them in the first category, but got his butt kicked on the second point. Wilson played the game the way his Head Coach asked him to. If we lost a lead in the 4th Quarter of the latest in a string of low scoring games, he went out there and got it back way more often than not. See Chicago OT win, and the Atlanta Playoff game loss for two such examples. BTW, I think not being able to salt away 30 secs in the playoffs is a much bigger deal than taking until halftime to get it going. So this would be a nice example of LOSING in SPITE OF Wilson.

3) 'The running game (along with defense) saved us'> Uh, you mean the running game that fully took advantage of Wilson's talents? The running game that took a slightly above average (production) runner and elevated him to Sainthood due to the pressure Wilson put on the defense to account for HIS ABILITY to run the ball (and pass) as well? Come on man, Lynch had a style that feeds fans egos. Tough, punch you in the face. The Seahawks are tough, punch you in the face. It's my team, therefore, I'm tough, punch you in the face. Go Seahawks!! For contrast, see: 1800 + yds, 28 TD's (then a league record), an MVP and not infrequent criticism because "we" didn't appreciate his "style". Before you light the torch, I love Marshawn, but he and Wilson did it together. Not the sexy story most want to hear though.

 

[Sgt Largent]

I dont think it's stats in a vacuum. You're choosing to look at Brees last year, but forgetting the number of years his teams did not make the playoffs. By your logic, does that not make Brees at fault for those seasons?

That's not only looking at facts in a vacuum, its hand selecting those that fit a narrow perspective.

Brees is a Hall of famer. Russ is a very good QB. Neither are faultless. But neither, even when their teams were poor, were the reasons why they didnt make the playoffs

The only narrow perspectives are the ones that can’t see the writing on the wall.
I addressed this in my previous posts, that is where we are headed now. No defense , good quarterback, mediocrity.
Could Russ of played better in much win game ? Is there nothing he can improve on ? Maybe beat a blitz with his arm ?

I’m looking at brees as a quarterback, your looking at Wilson as a god who has no flaws and is perfect
Pound for pound Wilson isn’t brees . As a quarterback, not to say he couldn’t learn these things but it’s Wilson’s 7th year.
What happens when we resign Wilson for record money and he loses a step or gets hurt and loses his agility.. can he sit in the pocket and beat the blitz ?

Bolded by me:

https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2018/ ... the-blitz/

Maybe he'll move to #1 or #2, as 3rd is clearly unacceptable...

Notice that Brees, Brady, and Rodgers aren't even listed in the graphic. Dak, Kirk, and Jared are the others. So not the best barometer of top tier QB's maybe, but something you asked for, so I (and Russell) delivered.

 

[Seymour]

Boy....some of these posts are becoming a "skimmers nightmare". :twisted:

 

[Sgt Largent]

Boy....some of these posts are becoming a "skimmers nightmare". :twisted:

Like you have something better to do at work! :shock: :irishdrinkers:

 

[hawksincebirth]

I dont think it's stats in a vacuum. You're choosing to look at Brees last year, but forgetting the number of years his teams did not make the playoffs. By your logic, does that not make Brees at fault for those seasons?

That's not only looking at facts in a vacuum, its hand selecting those that fit a narrow perspective.

Brees is a Hall of famer. Russ is a very good QB. Neither are faultless. But neither, even when their teams were poor, were the reasons why they didnt make the playoffs

The only narrow perspectives are the ones that can’t see the writing on the wall.
I addressed this in my previous posts, that is where we are headed now. No defense , good quarterback, mediocrity.
Could Russ of played better in much win game ? Is there nothing he can improve on ? Maybe beat a blitz with his arm ?

I’m looking at brees as a quarterback, your looking at Wilson as a god who has no flaws and is perfect
Pound for pound Wilson isn’t brees . As a quarterback, not to say he couldn’t learn these things but it’s Wilson’s 7th year.
What happens when we resign Wilson for record money and he loses a step or gets hurt and loses his agility.. can he sit in the pocket and beat the blitz ?

Bolded by me:

https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2018/ ... the-blitz/

Maybe he'll move to #1 or #2, as 3rd is clearly unacceptable...

Notice that Brees, Brady, and Rodgers aren't even listed in the graphic. Dak, Kirk, and Jared are the others. So not the best barometer of top tier QB's maybe, but something you asked for, so I (and Russell) delivered.

Do you really believe that stat ? Does your eyes tell you that stat is accurate, does that include scrambles , does that include inside and out of the pocket . I love russ . But he needs to improve see our 0-2 record

 

[Sgt Largent]

I dont think it's stats in a vacuum. You're choosing to look at Brees last year, but forgetting the number of years his teams did not make the playoffs. By your logic, does that not make Brees at fault for those seasons?

That's not only looking at facts in a vacuum, its hand selecting those that fit a narrow perspective.

Brees is a Hall of famer. Russ is a very good QB. Neither are faultless. But neither, even when their teams were poor, were the reasons why they didnt make the playoffs

The only narrow perspectives are the ones that can’t see the writing on the wall.
I addressed this in my previous posts, that is where we are headed now. No defense , good quarterback, mediocrity.
Could Russ of played better in much win game ? Is there nothing he can improve on ? Maybe beat a blitz with his arm ?

I’m looking at brees as a quarterback, your looking at Wilson as a god who has no flaws and is perfect
Pound for pound Wilson isn’t brees . As a quarterback, not to say he couldn’t learn these things but it’s Wilson’s 7th year.
What happens when we resign Wilson for record money and he loses a step or gets hurt and loses his agility.. can he sit in the pocket and beat the blitz ?

Bolded by me:

https://seahawkswire.usatoday.com/2018/ ... the-blitz/

Maybe he'll move to #1 or #2, as 3rd is clearly unacceptable...

Notice that Brees, Brady, and Rodgers aren't even listed in the graphic. Dak, Kirk, and Jared are the others. So not the best barometer of top tier QB's maybe, but something you asked for, so I (and Russell) delivered.

Do you really believe that stat ? Does your eyes tell you that stat is accurate, does that include scrambles , does that include inside and out of the pocket . I love russ . But he needs to improve see our 0-2 record

Ok. so the thing is, stats are recorded results within the requested parameters. According to the request, when teams rush more than four (=blitz), Wilson comes out 3rd highest in passer rating in the NFL last year.

So unless you feel Passer Rating is a meaningless, there is no belief involved....

Honestly, I don't have a problem with you finding Wilson lacking, it's your prerogative. I mean you throw a nice criticism ball, but your accuracy needs work.

Chris98251 has been blitzing you pretty hard though so...might be it...

 

[Seahawker]

Geez, I hope Pete, Schot & Russ don't converse like this when trouble shooting the offense... :17:

 

[Uncle Si]

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