Brian Schottenheimer has been fired

[SoulfishHawk]

Yep, it was maddening to see them just call plays to keep him in the pocket. When the Rams D line was pushing the swiss cheese blocking back ALL DAY LONG. And was anything done to counter it? Nope.

 

[ducks41468]

Russ doesn't absolutely need run game support. What he needs, is a pass protecting O-line. One that allows him to hold the ball. You can't drop 50 yard bombs and roll out of the pocket like Allen, Rodgers, Mahomes without holding the ball.

Yeah the line was only average and can definitely be upgraded. But on too many snaps this season did I see Russ hold on to the ball after 3 seconds, after 5 seconds, to ultimately take a sack. Even Rodgers and Mahomes lines can only protect for so long. Difference is they pull the trigger in a timely manner. Whereas, Russ is a freelancer by nature.

Since good pass-blocking Oline are hard to acquire, an easier solution: pull the trigger, throw it away, or call a run play. That will help prevent sacks, as well as 3rd and long situations.

Shotty's latest game plan called for no roll outs - just drop backs if I recall correctly. The firing was a good move.

Then the question becomes why he, and Bevell before him, were hired in the first place? It was a bad hire when it happened, everyone knew it, and then it played out exactly as expected. Just like Bevell. And make no mistake the next guy will be another bottom of the barrel hire that will play out the exact same way. I have a hard time blaming Schotty for being who he is, hell he probably outperformed the low expectations that we had for him; the blame is on Pete for making the hire in the first place. And he makes these hires intentionally because he knows that the OC position is a designated scapegoat role to be held by someone who has limited career prospects.

 

[ZagHawk]

100% fall guy firing. I'm okay with it provided they make creative changes to the offense and can pretend it was Schotty's fault...but let's be real...that's not going to happen. Bevell should have been the fall guy since SB 49 (go back to my old posts, I was calling for his job as fall guy since the play as a way to win back the locker room, people called me nuts...the locker room and team imploded). Regardless, I'm good with this given it really puts the pressure on Pete on the offense moving forward to let someone else take over or somehow adapt himself. If not it's his job next. This feels like one of those scenarios at a company where you see like lower level management take the fall over and over again and it's only after the third lost first or second level manager that the executive finally gets booted.

 

[twisted_steel2]

In regards to Schottenheimer being fired, it is pretty simple. He did not adjust in the second half of the season when it was obvious that defenses had figured out our schemes and route trees. The fact is that our formations and releases off the ball are too easily identified because our OC does not put in enough variations on them. It is the reason why our receivers are usually well covered at the end of the year. The defenses can literally tell where our receivers are going before the snap of the ball because the routes are not changed enough. One of the pundits who follow our team closely pointed out that we ran a lot of the same plays against the Rams in both the second and third game. You can not do that against good defenses.

Yup. The Rams CB that had the pick-six said he saw on film exactly what was coming. And that is when they motion DK away from Ramsey, they are likely going to DK... he was ready for it.

Yep.

You know that corner was laughing to himself as he was running to the endzone; ''I cant believe they did the same thing....again."

 

[jammerhawk]

There are a lot of assumptions within this thread:

1. Was Schotty fired actually or was there a disagreement between PC and himself or ownership questioned how sharply the wheels fell off the O after mid-season and how little adjustment was forthcoming from the OC? The point being was Schotty prepared to acknowledge his part in the offensive failures of the team from mid-season onward?

2. There is also the assumption that PC involves himself in every Offensive play call, i.e.: what I call 'the superman coach"

3. There is the assumption as well that PC doesn't want to throw the ball effectively.

4. There is an assumption that he only wants 'Yes men' surrounding him on his coaching staff.

5. Finally, notwithstanding an exceptional record of success there is the assumption that Pete has not kept up with the times and doesn't know how to coach a winning team any longer.


Most all of these nonsense theories fail to recognize the team won the NFC-W (the strongest division in the NFL) this past season with a 12-4 record. There were obvious issues without question, and two entirely different teams one strong on O and terrible on D for the first half of the season; and one that sucked on O and was markedly improved on D for the last half of the season. Was the change on O mid-season designed to protect the D? If so why couldn't the O easily transition to the passing juggernaut when when needed or couldn't the OC figure out how to change up on the fly? Why was it the team had not a single 100 + yd rusher all season, they had some quality RBs? What if anything did you see in any running play design that wasn't mostly ground and pound for 3 yards and cloud of dust? The running backs were the meat in grinder with that style and it was not surprise that they were getting nicked up by season's end. Where were the underneath routes and TE routes designed to take pressure ooff RW? Why is it none of the eleventeen TEs were ever fully utilized? Why was it that most all of the huge chunk plays came from scramble drill situations and not play design? Face it, Schotty was not good at adjusting to match adversity. RW was seemingly more effective at running a playground style O that Schotty was at scheming.

Frankly I'm not unhappy he and the team parted ways. He had been well figured out, and had few new ideas.

 

[ducks41468]

In regards to Schottenheimer being fired, it is pretty simple. He did not adjust in the second half of the season when it was obvious that defenses had figured out our schemes and route trees. The fact is that our formations and releases off the ball are too easily identified because our OC does not put in enough variations on them. It is the reason why our receivers are usually well covered at the end of the year. The defenses can literally tell where our receivers are going before the snap of the ball because the routes are not changed enough. One of the pundits who follow our team closely pointed out that we ran a lot of the same plays against the Rams in both the second and third game. You can not do that against good defenses.

Yup. The Rams CB that had the pick-six said he saw on film exactly what was coming. And that is when they motion DK away from Ramsey, they are likely going to DK... he was ready for it.

Yep.

You know that corner was laughing to himself as he was running to the endzone; ''I can believe they did the same thing....again."

Just as it happened with Browner in the SB, with Bevell as OC. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

[kidhawk]

Politics in football ? Say it ain't so . BS is fired and JS gets extension immediately after . Carroll just said that he expects all the coordinators back . I expect that JS wanted BS gone not Carroll . JS was in demand elsewhere . See how this works ?

Pete isn't going to feed the press and tell them he's planning to fire certain coordinators. He's going to tell them what he told them and he's going to do what he thinks needs to be done behind the scenes and make sure it's done the right way. Firing through the press is never the right way. Pete is in charge of this team. Yes John has tons of input and he is a huge part of our personnel decisions, but every final decision is Pete's. If Pete wanted Schotty to stay, he'd be here.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Are people still trying to make this firing out to be some sort of Machiavellian Frank Underwood politicking?

Guys, Pete doesn't need a fall guy. He's in absolutely no danger after winning 12 games and making the playoffs... again. I guarantee you that he has no knife being held to his throat. He doesn't need a fall guy.

I gotta think in this case the simplest explanation is the right one. Pete and Brian had a meeting, wanted to go in different directions on offense, decided to part ways based on their incompatibility.

 

[kidhawk]

There are a lot of assumptions within this thread:



2. There is also the assumption that PC involves himself in every Offensive play call, i.e.: what I call 'the superman coach"

I don't think that most people (if anyone) believes that Pete inserts himself into every offensive play call. That would be insane to think that. What I've said (and I've seen others as well) is that Pete has his game day philosophies and no matter who is coordinators are on offense and defense they need to follow those philosophies and that perhaps it might be nice to see what an OC could do with the talent we have with the reigns removed for a full season.

Pete has said on more than one occasion that he has requested a certain type of play call during certain game situations, and each time I've heard him say this, it's been at a time when it doesn't work. Does he doe this at times when it does work? I'd say he probably does, but as he doesn't really advertise those times, it's tough to say for certain. Knowing that there are times that he inserts his ideas that don't seem to work in key situations is frustrating from the fans point of view.

I for one, appreciate everything Pete has done since he's come here, and I am not on the Fire Pete bandwagon. I would say though, that I would like to see him bring in an offensive coordinator who can handle all the play calling on game days and let him call all the plays on gameday and see how it goes. I don't see this ever happening though, I'd like to see it.

 

[IndyHawk]

Russ doesn't absolutely need run game support. What he needs, is a pass protecting O-line. One that allows him to hold the ball. You can't drop 50 yard bombs and roll out of the pocket like Allen, Rodgers, Mahomes without holding the ball.

Yeah the line was only average and can definitely be upgraded. But on too many snaps this season did I see Russ hold on to the ball after 3 seconds, after 5 seconds, to ultimately take a sack. Even Rodgers and Mahomes lines can only protect for so long. Difference is they pull the trigger in a timely manner. Whereas, Russ is a freelancer by nature.

Since good pass-blocking Oline are hard to acquire, an easier solution: pull the trigger, throw it away, or call a run play. That will help prevent sacks, as well as 3rd and long situations.

Shotty's latest game plan called for no roll outs - just drop backs if I recall correctly. The firing was a good move.

Those QB's can see the field a lot easier than RW and they can work more of the field too
since they see more of it.
RW has to run outside to see his limited view and he is holding ball longer because of this
and he always has but defense has pick up on his patterns.
He struggles with short passes and down the middle ..The reason is the same as above.
I'm not sure any OC can help him besides create a better running attack and stick him
in the shotgun more so he can see..Yes there is PA with a good running game but there
needs to be more and using shotgun with running plays also would do some wonders
for RW..He needs to be able to see more of the field without using the old legs to try.

 

[jammerhawk]

For me I'd like to see some fresh ideas in the running game, proper use of short passes, including some frequent reliance on TEs, all things that have ben most absent over the past 2 seasons. In short I'd like to see an effective OC as I'm sure the FO would as well.

I'd also like to see an OLine that can actually, you know, pass protect when needed. There is little excuse for not having any effective gameplan to attempt to control Donald or the pass rusher de jour as faced.

The one feature of the Schotty as OC scheme was a lack of ability to adjust to situations where the original plan has been blown up. It seemed to me as well that the chunk plays downfield that were a huge part of the early success resulted from scramble drill heroics instead of actual play design. In this I acknowledge there is a drill the WRs follow when the pass pro breaks down and how they are to try to get open whenRW is scrambling. Maybe this was designed by BS but it isn't really any reflection that the plays called by Schotty were effective. In fact it appeared RW was better at calling the plays then than BS.

I'm happy he will now be replaced.

 

[chris98251]

For me I'd like to see some fresh ideas in the running game, proper use of short passes, including some frequent reliance on TEs, all things that have ben most absent over the past 2 seasons. In short I'd like to see an effective OC as I'm sure the FO would as well.

I'd also like to see an OLine that can actually, you know, pass protect when needed. There is little excuse for not having any effective gameplan to attempt to control Donald or the pass rusher de jour as faced.

The one feature of the Schotty as OC scheme was a lack of ability to adjust to situations where the original plan has been blown up. It seemed to me as well that the chunk plays downfield that were a huge part of the early success resulted from scramble drill heroics instead of actual play design. In this I acknowledge there is a drill the WRs follow when the pass pro breaks down and how they are to try to get open whenRW is scrambling. Maybe this was designed by BS but it isn't really any reflection that the plays called by Schotty were effective. In fact it appeared RW was better at calling the plays then than BS.

I'm happy he will now be replaced.

New scheme, New Line, New QB then, New OC, New RB, so you want to blow it up.....

 

[jammerhawk]

It is amazing how many posters here have an axe to grind. Just amazing.

In regards to Schottenheimer being fired, it is pretty simple. He did not adjust in the second half of the season when it was obvious that defenses had figured out our schemes and route trees. The fact is that our formations and releases off the ball are too easily identified because our OC does not put in enough variations on them. It is the reason why our receivers are usually well covered at the end of the year. The defenses can literally tell where our receivers are going before the snap of the ball because the routes are not changed enough. One of the pundits who follow our team closely pointed out that we ran a lot of the same plays against the Rams in both the second and third game. You can not do that against good defenses.

The other aspect of this is the blocking scheme that is required is not being executed well enough. If we have a pass to the middle of the field called our line needs to open that passing window for Wilson to complete the pass and that simply does not happen. It was Schottenheimer's responsibility to get the offensive line on the same page and get those passing lanes open so Wilson can succeed.




The third thing that needs to be addressed here is that it was ultimately Schottenheimer's responsibility to keep Wilson from going to the well too often. The truth is that Wilson was not looking to use the check downs and intermediate routes enough. It is almost as though he was looking to put up more and more numbers down the field after the short and intermediate interceptions he threw in the middle part of the year.

This above is a good post which accurately reflects the problem with continuing with BS, inability to adjust, same ol' same ol' allowing opposing D's the ability to defend what they've seen before. To me Schotty's best season here was his first and then we'd seen it all for the most part. If it wasn't obvious it was well past time for change. The opponents had figured the O out. Worse still for a coach who was supposed tone running game guru the run game was the most predictable and it chewed up quality RBs w/o mercy. Agains the Rams the only thing that worked was the scramble drill, which just showed Schotty's inability to successfully adjust or scheme.

I am not disappointed in his leaving.

All the biased hyperbole about Pete needing a yes man, demanding absolutely control, controlling OLine blocking styles is all part of the 'Pete as a superman' nonsense that fails to acknowledge there are position coaches coaching WRs, OLine, RBs, and QBs and an overall Coordinator. Are they all chopped liver? Pete is a defensive coach and cedes responsibility for the other side of the ball to his coaches. The negative hyperbole of 'Pete Ball' is just biased negative in part agenda supporting material w/o factual support that supports their held anti-Pete biases. Certainly he isn't perfect but he's the best ever Seahawks Head coach and the record he's delivered has been special and on the league's best.

Th facts are not friendly to their views, but they will have us believe the fire Pete agenda is the right view. to them get over it he's here for 5 more years as is JS. The team has a an excellent QB and there are a lot of pieces here that point to the team continuing to be successful in a very tough division. The continuing record of success proves the point.

 

[rjdriver]

Here's the bottom line (not really ...but it makes it sound like I know what I'm talking about)

In our playoff game against the Rams, our offense had some combo of the following guys on the field..

QB Russell Wilson
WR Tyler Lockett
WR DK Metcalf
RB Chris Carson
TE Will Disley
TE Greg Olsen (IIRC)

We were 2/14 on third downs. At home. In good weather.

That is way too much talent and experience to go 2/14 on third downs. Some of those third downs, AD was even sitting on the bench. There is something more than just philosophical going on to produce such an abysmal performance. I don't know whose fault it is exactly (was Pete overriding Schott?) but it is inexcusable regardless of the talent level of the defense. Something had to give.

 

[jammerhawk]

Pretty damning stats. He never did get anything much all season from the TEs however.

 

[jeremiah]

Shouldn't PC been the one to get the ax? He clearly has lost his team, and proven it over multiple years. They have no discipline, and he is geezing pretty hard. Find someone young with an offensive mind. Maybe a College coach who has insight into young players just becoming draft eligible. That is how PC made his bones. He should have been fired right after the Super Bowl loss.

 

[Maelstrom787]

Shouldn't PC been the one to get the ax? He clearly has lost his team, and proven it over multiple years. They have no discipline, and he is geezing pretty hard. Find someone young with an offensive mind. Maybe a College coach who has insight into young players just becoming draft eligible. That is how PC made his bones. He should have been fired right after the Super Bowl loss.

Oh, come on. That's a little much. I don't care who the quarterback is, a coach who has lost his team doesn't get 12 wins. Just doesn't happen.

Firing a coach after he makes two consecutive Super Bowls, winning one of them, is similarly... it's just insane. It's not how it works, and it's not how it should work.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Shouldn't PC been the one to get the ax? He clearly has lost his team, and proven it over multiple years. They have no discipline, and he is geezing pretty hard. Find someone young with an offensive mind. Maybe a College coach who has insight into young players just becoming draft eligible. That is how PC made his bones. He should have been fired right after the Super Bowl loss.

Oh, come on. That's a little much. I don't care who the quarterback is, a coach who has lost his team doesn't get 12 wins. Just doesn't happen.

Firing a coach after he makes two consecutive Super Bowls, winning one of them, is similarly... it's just insane. It's not how it works, and it's not how it should work.

Conversely, Pete Carroll has had very poor outings in the postseason since our last Super Bowl appearance. You don't keep a coach based on what you did in the past, that is utter foolishness. You keep the coach on what he's going to do on the future, and for Carroll he's on a downward spiral. Did you know since 2017 that the Jaguars have won more in the playoffs than the Seahawks, Mike McCarthy also has the same record as Pete in the playoffs since 2015.

The Seahawks have only won THREE playoff games since 2015. One of those was a fluke, Bill Walsh missed an easy chip shot. The second win was against a Detroit Lions team that backed into the playoffs. Stafford was also playing with torn ligaments in his throwing hand, and a sprained ankle in week 16. Our last victory came from the Eagles, who had to call McCown out of retirement, a QB that quite frankly wasn't ever that good, McCown, a statue of a QB, McCown a QB over 40 that quite frankly didn't have the best physical talents in the first place. Be barely squeaked by that guy.

So in three of those wins we got an extremely lucky break due to an inept kicker (who we hired). A win against a QB with a torn ligament in his hand, and sprained ankle, and a 40 year old QB that was retired. This season we got to play against a Jared Goff with a broken thumb on his throwing hand and we still couldn't pull it off. You realize how much of an indictment this is on Pete Carroll's ability to win in the postseason in his current iteration? He's had in that time period a team that that was number one in DVOA, not only were they number one it was by a long shot -- in fact the largest margin between one and two ever recorded. He's had some very good teams in the post Super Bowl era.

Carroll is done. He's never going to win us another Super Bowl ever again. That ship has sailed. Likely that we'll never even make it to the conference championship game.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I don't think it makes any sense to expect any kind of production or accomplishment in the playoffs.

Carroll is what he is. He will get you there though.

But is this like the Chargers with Marty Schottenheimer?

The only reason they GOT to the playoffs was Marty. The moment they got rid of him they stopped going entirely.

Clearly, Wilson has had moments he carried the team. But can he do it consistently for a full game? Can he be our Aaron Rodgers? Not sure. He does not even seem fully committed right now.

Should we just be happy to have a team that puts together a solid regular record, tends to be competitive in the regular season, and has a few great games per year? Probably, because without Pete there is no guarantee that continues.

Pete's problems are easily fixed. But never will be.

Without a commitment to winning on all levels I am not sure expecting a Pete replacement to do better makes any sense. You are just gambling that Wilson and his weapons in an offensive system can be much better. It seems so.

But you lose that high floor Pete's system gives you, worth at least 3-4 extra wins per year.

 

[BASF]

Shouldn't PC been the one to get the ax? He clearly has lost his team, and proven it over multiple years. They have no discipline, and he is geezing pretty hard. Find someone young with an offensive mind. Maybe a College coach who has insight into young players just becoming draft eligible. That is how PC made his bones. He should have been fired right after the Super Bowl loss.

How exactly do you justify him being fired after the Super Bowl loss? This is not hyperbole or rhetorical. I truly want to know.

As far as discipline, they ranked eleventh in penalties this season. Not exactly an undisciplined team. The high ranking in delay of game is directly on Wilson. The high ranking in false starts is discipline, but how many of them were Wilson try to speed up the tempo and throwing his linemen off?