Art Thiel ask if its Time to trade Russell

[vin.couve12]

When you're talking about statistics with video evidence that's not an assumption. It's not alternative facts either.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I am hopeful that the stupidity of our tactics and strategy in offense is responsible for the '3 quarters with nothing to show for it' offense.

But there is a funny belief system on our board that removing players (even expensive ones) makes you better.

Our team consistently won because we had better players, that won matchups against the opposing team.

Carroll has never been a tactical or strategic genius or even close. He is a scout/motivator type of coach. But the scout part might be someone else now because we haven't produced consistently good talent that turns into productive players in a while.

When the time comes, and players age or leave, this team will get worse. We don't have a staff that can outscheme anyone - our tactic has always been to 'outathlete'. Which makes sense with the # of Pro Bowl players on the team and guys like Wilson that are difficult to scheme against.

But remove those guys? Remove Earl, Kam and Sherman? Then this team will become very ordinary very quickly.

Not sure why so many fans are in a race to jettison great players, because that race is going to get you an end of an era and a lot of losses.

Ask Chicago what happened when Jordan got 'too old'. They didn't replace him, they just start failing. You cannot replace HOF players if your team literally leverages them for wins.

Bennett leaving is going to leave a mark. Earl leaving will decimate our secondary. Sherman will not be replaced by whatever weird FA or draft pick you are dreaming about. You do not replace HOF player without suffering unless you are a the Patriots...and we are not even close.

Now Wilson is not a HOF player, but he is a difference maker and since half the league is willing to sell their first born in order to get a shot at an effective QB - it seems the height of idiocy to jettison the one QB that can work with your godawful line and your godawful scheme/strategy. And saving money won't matter because the FO will just blow it on an overpriced replacement that would not come close to the results we are getting now.

I say this as a person that considers Wilson a tremendously flawed QB. But we don't have the defense to win games with a terrible offense anymore. And we don't have the scouting/FO to really make the team that much better. So getting rid of one of the few things that helps us get wins?

 

[SoulfishHawk]

So now comebacks and being flat out clutch in crunch time doesn't matter? Ok.....

 

[Seymour]

Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.

The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

VERY few QB's have as many comeback wins as Russ. That is called clutch. It's too bad that people, who plain refuse to actually understand how important that is, do so because they just don't like the guy.
Being clutch isn't something you can teach, he has something that most QB's in the league don't have. He is flat out locked in, when the game is on the line, unlike most in the NFL. Period

 

[vin.couve12]

Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.

The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.

It's always been there. It just wasn't as clearly visible to most because we had a running game. RW had never been a QB who comes out throwing accurately. It's always taken him a while to loosen up. It's yet another way he reminds me of McNabb.

 

[vin.couve12]

Y'all don't need to be bi-polar about this. Hawks need to plan ahead for potential future replacements just like any other position. Step back and take the crazy out of it.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Wins and losses, playoff wins and Super Bowls. That's what truly matters. Comeback wins in the 4th Quarter and Overtime are very hard to come by. If it was so easy, more QB's would do it. Since he's come in to the league, he's one of the best in the NFL. Why is it so hard to give the guy his due credit? Does it actually hurt to realize how damn good he has been? Without Russ, they don't make back to back Super Bowls, period, end of story. Shoot, they might have only won 5 games this year w/out Russ. Maybe

 

[vin.couve12]

 

[TwistedHusky]

He has been damn good in the 4th when behind.

But to be fair, he has been pretty close to terrible in quarters 1-3, almost all year.

Now the question is, was that his fault, or the fault of some awful offensive scheme we put together
?

And as Vin pointed out, it wasn't just this year. Remember that playoff game that we had against Carolina where we were striving to come back but just ran out of time? That 1st half hole we got put in the first place was dug mostly by Wilson, esp that interception.

What about the Green Bay playoff miracle game that we came back in? You forget how godawful terrible Wilson was in that first few quarters? You could easily argue that forcing our defense to hold that game in check for that long injured BOTH Earl and Kam, which is a big part of the reason our secondary struggled so much against Brady in the SB.

So let's not wax poetic about what a great job Wilson did bailing us out in those games because he was a big part of the reason we were behind in the first place. And his play in the GB game arguably cost us the SB because of injuries to key players in that game as they were forced to cover for his poor play.

(And yes Kearse dropped some of those, but then why the hell did he keep throwing them to him? That said, some of those 'drops' were garbage passes)

 

[Seymour]

Every QB has those games a few times a year.

28-3 ring a bell to anyone?

Also lets not discount Pete and his "it's not how you start" attitude playing into the conservative nature of "wearing the other team down" playing into this.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I actually think that Wilson under a good OC would find he is a lot better than he was allowing himself to be.

Not sure we solved the problem with Schoddy, but I would have taken Haley in a heartbeat.

My worry is more that the quarter 1-3 garbage is due to some stupid outdated and no longer relevant philosophy that Pete is clinging to, but I really hope that concern vanishes once I see the offense actually putting TDs on the board in the early parts of a game too. You never know.

Given what we know about what he had to work with, some benefit of the doubt to Wilson is due. But it isn't fair to point out all his comebacks and then dismiss he was a part of the reason for those comebacks.

 

[WmHBonney]

Trade him to the Yankees.....oh wait......

 

[adeltaY]

Hm so the stats show Russ has been better in the fourth and third string the other three quarters all his career? Then why was he rated higher in the first half compared to the second last year!? Recency bias. He didn't have the second all time (100+) passer rating his first four years by being a scrub in the first three quarters. He's still second all time right now and just under 100.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

:229031_cheers:

 

[Hawkpower]

Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.

The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.

I believe the NFCCG vs. Green Bay occured earlier than 2017.....a perfect example of classic Russ.

This has been a trend....well pretty much always with RW. I didn't even know it was a debate, figured it was just...known.

 

[mrt144]

Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.

The crappy first half starts didn't happen until the 2017 season. So you want to erase all the comebacks in his previous 5 years and call that "fair"? Sounds like a slighted opinion to me.

I believe the NFCCG vs. Green Bay occured earlier than 2017.....a perfect example of classic Russ.

This has been a trend....well pretty much always with RW. I didn't even know it was a debate, figured it was just...known.

One way to look at it is that it wasn't an arresting aspect of the offense when RW wasn't the entirety of the offense.

 

[Chapow]

Take the comeback stats and throw them out. Fair is fair. A comeback is meaningless when you create tje situation in first place by playing like a 3rd string QB for 2.5 quarters.

It is self induced bs of a lie heroics. It should never get to that point. If RW doesn't improve in that area then sourcing another QB is absolutely warranted. It's not acceptable.

OK, so anytime a player is part of a comeback, especially a QB, they should not receive praise for it because they were a part of the reason that the comeback was needed in the first place.

For instance, Tom Brady should not be praised for bringing his team back from a 25 point deficit in the 2nd half of the Super Bowl because as QB, he was a big reason they were down by 25 in the first place.

Am I doing it right or does that "no credit for comebacks" thing only apply to Russ, but not guys like Tom Brady and Aaron Rogers who also have a lot of comebacks on their resumes?

 

[TwistedHusky]

That depends.

A lot of QBs are part of comebacks because their defense keeps the opposing teams in the game by continually giving up scores.

That would be rare with our defense.

Some quarterbacks get lots of comebacks because they are in shoot outs. Same response as above.

But yes, if the QB is terrible for several quarters or the offense is terrible for several quarters, and the QB comes storming back then yes you have to acknowledge that part of this 'accomplishment' wouldn't be needed if the offense produced anything for 3 quarters earlier.


And the Aaron Rodgers thing is hilarious. Rodgers has comebacks because his defense kept giving up the lead. So yes, then he has to come back from behind...alot.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Even with his 1st-3rd-quarter faults well-documented, Russ is still better than the QB hell we'd be leaping into if we traded him. Get him a RB.