X's and O's guys... Set my ass straight about the "Zone" D.

[bigwrm]

Thanks Tical, awesome answer. I think a dose of Ryan Fitzpatrick at the Clink is just what our secondary needs to get going again.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Great question , I don't know off the top of my head but I would guess we give up more yardage in zone . The coaching staff knows or they better damn well know that's for sure. We all need to just chill out about that loss,we all saw the game , the Hawks are brilliant at home so there's no reason for concern right now.

I don't have any stats to back it up, but it feels like we not only give up more yardage in zone, but that it's not even close. Just a guess based off of watching the games, I could be wrong.

 

[McGruff]

I think in general, if you have the personnel to pull it off playing man is much better. However, colts might have been running plays specifically designed to beat man coverage, forcing the switch. Just a guess.

I didn't watch the game, but I'm curious how much Indy was running bunch formations and rub routes. If that's the case, and it's a film tendency, zone makes more sense against those kind of schemes.

Also against mobile QB's like Luck, zone is a better option to limit scrambles and designed QB runs.

 

[RolandDeschain]

Question for any Xs & Os guys here; aren't we able to "cheat" while playing man coverage more than pretty much any other team because we can still just abandon Earl to cover the deep end of the field and keep Kam shallow regularly? Doesn't that help considerably reduce the negative aspects of man coverage?

 

[McGruff]

Question for any Xs & Os guys here; aren't we able to "cheat" while playing man coverage more than pretty much any other team because we can still just abandon Earl to cover the deep end of the field and keep Kam shallow regularly? Doesn't that help considerably reduce the negative aspects of man coverage?

Yeah, that's the way our scheme typically works. That's why Earl is so valuable to us.

 

[aawolf]

You can't play man all the time. A halfway decent QB could complete umpteen passes in a row if he knows man is coming. Coordinators have a sheet of plays they like to run when they think they're going to get man coverage, and a sheet when they anticipate zone. They also have audibles to in place to switch depending on the coverage. If you run man all the time, coordinators will find a matchup and pick on it relentlessly. Against our defense, those would be against our LB's, Kam and Thurmond most of the time. You would also see a lot of pick routes that could go for big plays.

Zone takes away pick plays, which have grown immensely in popularity over the past few years. As previously stated, it is better against the run. It also should be better at covering the middle of the field, TE's in particular. The trick, is to come out in a man look, and fall into a zone, or visa versa. This is how young QB's in particular get duped. They think they have man, and, say a corner route to the TE is called. When the QB goes to throw to who he think is an open receiver, he ends up throwing the ball right to a defender he didn't think would be there. Zone creates more turnovers than man, both with interceptions and big hits for fumbles. We've given up some big plays and drives with zone coverage, but we've also got the majority of our interceptions from it.

You can run more man than zone, and we run about as much man as anybody out there. But you can't run it all the time or there is nothing to keep the QB honest. The other variable with zone is that you can run many different variations out of the same set, hopefully confusing the QB as to which zone you're running. Again, hopefully more turnovers and sacks as the QB tries to decipher.

The deep play on Sherman was zone, cover 3, which we run a lot. Sherman had deep responsibility on that third of the field. It was a mental error. Rare for him. The most popular play right now against this type of coverage is the hitch route. Very few corners, knowing they have deep responsibility, have the balls and skill to break on a hitch or other shorter route. Sherman straddles this line as well as any corner in the game right now. Browner is a bit more hit or miss. If you can convince Browner you're going to go deep, he'll turn and run. Sherman is harder to convince, and is better at making up the ground if he guesses wrong.

You'll see zones get shredded apart if the coordinator guesses right, and QB's get time. But it should greatly limit the big play. When you run zone, you want to test the QB's patience. Can he take 5-10 yard plays all day or get greedy and try to force something down the field? Peyton will take it all day. Luck kind of did too. So will Brady. Brees does something entirely different, which is really cool to watch. They really attack zones vertically, trying to hit the seams between the two defenders in a cover 2 or three in a cover 3.

It takes a lot of balls to run a ton of man. The offense only needs to win one matchup to complete a pass, and can try to setup bigger plays. But I do agree that there are times when our zone simply is not working and we need to abandon it and beg the other team to beat our man. However, a proper mixture is always best if you can do it right. Sorry for babbling, I'm tired. Hopefully at least part of this was correct.

Good analysis, but I think on the play where Sherm got beat, he was playing Cover 2 because he was playing under the WR and expecting help up top by the Safety. The "soft spot" in this coverage is behind the CB and under the Safety. The soft spot in Cover three is underneath the CB.

 

[chrispy]

Where was our press at the line of scrimmage on Sunday?

Maybe I just missed it, but I usually see both Browner and Sherm get in and man-handle the WRs in their 5 yard zone. In the 2nd half, I started looking for it to slow down some of the big plays. I just didn't see any hard press. It seemed like the result was a little more contact downfield and, at times, that resulted in penalties. To me, the questionable PI calls were more of a culmination of contact against a CB that the official might not have called on that particular play had the previous plays been cleaner. I'm not excusing the questionable calls. I just think a little more pressure at the LOS might have benefitted in better coverage as well as less questionable contact downfield.

I think our man coverage has to include physical play at the LOS or we turn into a pretty average D overall.

 

[Tical21]

[/quote]

Good analysis, but I think on the play where Sherm got beat, he was playing Cover 2 because he was playing under the WR and expecting help up top by the Safety. The "soft spot" in this coverage is behind the CB and under the Safety. The soft spot in Cover three is underneath the CB.[/quote]

Kam comes down into the box pre-snap, leaving Earl Thomas to cover the deep middle third. If this was a conventional cover 2, Kam would have been on top of Sherman. The other possible version of cover 2 would have Earl sliding over on top of Sherman, with Browner sliding back to play the other deep half. It looks to me like Earl is passing Hilton off to Thomas, expecting a seam or post, looking to jump the TE. Sherm forgot for a second that he can't do that, as it will leave his whole third of the field uncovered downfield. I guess Sherm may have thought it was cover 2, but everybody else was playing cover 3.

 

[Seeker]

Also keep in mind that there is a difference in man and man press. seahawks are best when pressing because it throws off the offensive timing.

 

[BlueThunder]

Also keep in mind that there is a difference in man and man press. seahawks are best when pressing because it throws off the offensive timing.

Ok guys, I've learned a lot so far in this thread, which is exactly what I was looking for, and I thank you all for your contributions.

So now, please explain "man" vs "man press". May as well dig deeper while we're on the subject...

 

[McGruff]

Man . . . Look but don't touch.

Man-press . . . Like wrestling without the onesie.

 

[McGruff]

Man . . . Look but don't touch.

Man-press . . . Like wrestling without the onesie.

And yes, PE, I'm talking about football.

 

[Tical21]

Press of course is when you see the CB's jam at the line of scrimmage. "Usually", most teams will leave safety help over the top when they do this in some form of cover 2. Because we have Earl, we count on him to cover from sideline to sideline. We can run press with a single safety(cover 1). We are pretty unique in this.

If the offense is balanced, meaning equal receivers on each side, it is relatively easy to run either cover 2 man, or cover 2 zone, without giving away what you're running. When you run a cover 2 zone, the corners will jam, and then stay underneath, and release the receiver if he continues up the field, and the corner comes back to the flat or hook zone.

Most teams usually run normal man without pressing when they have either 1 or 0 safeties deep. The theory being, if you're going to jam without safeties over the top, and the corner misses his jam, or isn't fast enough to keep up with the WR down the field, the offense has a TD. Unless you are on the goal line, you will never see cover 0 with press on the outside. It is just too likely you'll give up a homerun. Even we aren't crazy enough to do that.

Very popular now is what they call a bail coverage, or press bail. The corners line up in the receiver's faces like they're going to press. So the QB anticipates that whatever route the WR will run, will automatically be switched to a fade. You can't run a hitch or square in against press man. So when you think you're getting press coverage, you automatically convert to fade. In bail coverage, instead of jamming, the corner has deep responsibility, and goes straight backwards at the snap to ensure he will be ready for a fade. It has really kind of developed as teams started adjusting to the cover 2.

Now, is where the Seahawks coverage gets interesting. They don't always jam at the line of scrimmage, both Browner and Sherman. I've never seen anything like it. They'll line up in the WR's face, take two steps back at the snap, kind of like they're bailing, and then jam at about 5 yards. Talk about disrupting the timing of a route! We let the receiver run a few feet to see where he's going, and then jam. It is beautiful. Now, this is why we are getting the dirty/holding reputation. It is because we do this at 5 yards. And it is pretty easy for that 5 yards to turn into 7-10 yards. And still doesn't get called often. A beautiful thing.

We're possibly the best press team since the Raiders of the 80's. You see often though that WR's can get wide open against press against lesser corners. It puts the corner behind the 8 ball right away, and you gotta fight to stay on your guy.

The sad part, is that our WR's are possibly the worst team against press in the league. They press us and we can never lose them, they just stay in our hip pocket. Baldwin can a bit, but Tate and Rice don't.

 

[pehawk]

Tical brings it all day, every day. He's our AP.

 

[BlueThunder]

Press of course is when you see the CB's jam at the line of scrimmage. "Usually", most teams will leave safety help over the top when they do this in some form of cover 2. Because we have Earl, we count on him to cover from sideline to sideline. We can run press with a single safety(cover 1). We are pretty unique in this.

If the offense is balanced, meaning equal receivers on each side, it is relatively easy to run either cover 2 man, or cover 2 zone, without giving away what you're running. When you run a cover 2 zone, the corners will jam, and then stay underneath, and release the receiver if he continues up the field, and the corner comes back to the flat or hook zone.

Most teams usually run normal man without pressing when they have either 1 or 0 safeties deep. The theory being, if you're going to jam without safeties over the top, and the corner misses his jam, or isn't fast enough to keep up with the WR down the field, the offense has a TD. Unless you are on the goal line, you will never see cover 0 with press on the outside. It is just too likely you'll give up a homerun. Even we aren't crazy enough to do that.

Very popular now is what they call a bail coverage, or press bail. The corners line up in the receiver's faces like they're going to press. So the QB anticipates that whatever route the WR will run, will automatically be switched to a fade. You can't run a hitch or square in against press man. So when you think you're getting press coverage, you automatically convert to fade. In bail coverage, instead of jamming, the corner has deep responsibility, and goes straight backwards at the snap to ensure he will be ready for a fade. It has really kind of developed as teams started adjusting to the cover 2.

Now, is where the Seahawks coverage gets interesting. They don't always jam at the line of scrimmage, both Browner and Sherman. I've never seen anything like it. They'll line up in the WR's face, take two steps back at the snap, kind of like they're bailing, and then jam at about 5 yards. Talk about disrupting the timing of a route! We let the receiver run a few feet to see where he's going, and then jam. It is beautiful. Now, this is why we are getting the dirty/holding reputation. It is because we do this at 5 yards. And it is pretty easy for that 5 yards to turn into 7-10 yards. And still doesn't get called often. A beautiful thing.

We're possibly the best press team since the Raiders of the 80's. You see often though that WR's can get wide open against press against lesser corners. It puts the corner behind the 8 ball right away, and you gotta fight to stay on your guy.

The sad part, is that our WR's are possibly the worst team against press in the league. They press us and we can never lose them, they just stay in our hip pocket. Baldwin can a bit, but Tate and Rice don't.

Awesome man! Did you play the game at one time, or are you just a student of the game? Good stuff!

So, do you think the addition of Percy Harvin will make us better against the press?

 

[MontanaHawk05]

Tical...start a blog. You can have mine if you want. I'm kinda not kidding.

 

[vin.couve12]

I don't think there's any question that the play in question was cover 3. The play called was designed to beat cover 3 by making the corner choose between the deep man and the mid route while also putting a guy on a route to the flat and the safety really needs to see it. The play design TYPE is referred to as a flood. Even if it's cover 2 there is a weak spot in cover 2 between the deep half safety and the corner in the flat. Generally in a flood scenario you either want to be in man, but it's already been mentioned that you can't run man all the time and that's correct. There is a play design to beat every type of defensive call and vice versa.

 

[SalishHawkFan]

Question for any Xs & Os guys here; aren't we able to "cheat" while playing man coverage more than pretty much any other team because we can still just abandon Earl to cover the deep end of the field and keep Kam shallow regularly? Doesn't that help considerably reduce the negative aspects of man coverage?

Yeah, that's the way our scheme typically works. That's why Earl is so valuable to us.

Which is why we are on this thread asking the REAL QUESTION: Are we running zone too much? Not that we shouldn't run it at all, or shouldn't mix it up, but aren't we running it way too much? As has been said, vs QB's like Schaub, man works better. What's hard to know, but seems to be true, is that in the first half of that Texans game we seemed to use it all the time. Vs. Indy, it seemed to be getting used a lot as well.

Thing is, without all 22, it's impossible to be sure. Plus, as others have pointed out, sometimes we run man one side, zone another, or give zone looks or man looks, then run the other.

Only way to answer this question definitively is with someone who has All 22 to do a study.

 

[Scottemojo]

Pete sticks to some fundamentals, always has. Some of what you see on the field might be tweaked from USC, but the reasons for what he does remain the same.

I give you a couple of Pete quotes about secondary players from a coaching seminar by Pete when he was at USC:

The defensive backs that are the best run defenders are our safeties. The Free Safety is another player who makes a lot of tackles for us. He has to have good instincts. He is what we call a natural player. You don't have to coach this player too much. He has to have a feel for the everything and understand the big picture

The corners have to run fast if you plan on playing bump and run. If they don't run fast then you can still play with them. But if your corners are not faster than the wide receivers you are facing don't play bump and run. Your asking them to do something they can not do and they'll get beat deep. It is a race when you play bump and run and if you can't win the race don't play bump and run.

If you have a million reads for your secondary you are crazy. They don't need that even at our level. All they need to know is their primary responsibility and then secondary. At the highest level in the NFL the pass game is as complex as you can imagine. However if a defender can play the post and the seam route then they can learn to play at that level. The thing that kills and breaks down a defense is a ball being thrown over the defender's head for a touchdown

To take this even further for example we tell our corners to play inside leverage (i.e. to the inside shoulder of the receiver) in this defense. This helps the corner avoid giving up the big play to the inside of the field. If you want them to play the out route towards the sideline you have to give them someone playing support over the top. There is not a corner in college or the NFL that can both play the out routes and also avoid giving up the deep ball to the inside. You have to be realistic as to what your players can do. They only way a corner can play inside leverage and make a play on the out route is if the offense screws up or the quarterback makes a bad throw or the receiver runs a bad route. If you don’t understand that then you are asking the corner to do something he can’t do

 

[pehawk]

Tical...start a blog. You can have mine if you want. I'm kinda not kidding.

Why would he want to start with negative hits though?

Love you, twink!