Wilson's rushing explosion related to deep ball negation?

Pandion Haliaetus

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I feel like the team is just adapting to the O-line play. As well as:

1. Wilson not having enough time to comfortably set his feet and make the perfect throw into a tight window

2. His WRs who were so good at catching everything in 2012, are not winning the jump balls as successfully this year.

3. A lot of would be big splash plays have been negated due to penalties, miscommunication, or overthrows.
 

formido

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Indeed, there are lots of bits of info leaked suggesting your guess is right. The Indy game broadcasters reported that Carroll says he wants Wilson to run for it every chance he gets. He said Tennessee's safety was playing ridiculously deep. Carroll says he wants Seattle to be the best in the NFL at the scramble drill and they practice it regularly. Add it all up and you get frequent "broken plays" for Wilson that are part of a semi-structured offense. Wilson is second in the NFL in yards per carry and around 25th in rushing yards per game. This is a core part of the game plan.
 

BGHawk

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Perfundle":24tpxnca said:
BocciHawk":24tpxnca said:
This last game I definitely saw RW getting flushed from the pocket, seeing either A) short man open and long man open and tossing short or B) short man open long man covered and figuring "eh, I can run it as long as the short man" and running it. So I definitely see your point, which is that even when the long options are open, when he's flushed from the pocket and it's not designed to go that way, I think he tends to pull it down and go for the more conservative option... which occasionally now includes running it, whereas the first couple three weeks, that option wasn't in his mental menu.

If he had better protection, we'd see longer pass plays.

Note that PC says the protection is fine, and I don't watch film as much as he does LOL but I think the protection is adequate, not great, but OK. It's not good enough to reliably throw the long ball.
I've seen too many short third downs (around the NFL, not just by Seattle) not get converted by mobile QBs because the third down pass gets dropped or defensed. As long as you slide or get out bounds properly (i.e. not what Manuel and Hoyer did in that game), it's an easy and safe first down.

On the flip side, what has happened to QB spying? Wilson was contained pretty well against Carolina and SF, possibly because of their having a mobile QB of their own, but are opponents simply not spying Wilson at all in the last few games?


well...they cant really see him now, can they? :snack:
 

Hawkscanner

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kearly":26b7ka1n said:
I don't watch all-22, nor do I have any interest in it. This theory came straight out of my rear end, and could be totally wrong. But it's a suspicion of mine, and I wonder what the rest of you think.

I've been complaining about Seattle's lack of deep passing all season, even in the early weeks when we had a few big plays via the deep ball. In the first 3 games, Seattle had about 1-2 deep completions per game, and during this time Wilson averaged less than 20 yards rushing a game.

Since then, he's played 3 more games, and we've had almost zero success on play action deep looks, while Wilson has exploded as a rusher, averaging 80 yards per game during that span.

One of the disadvantages of man coverage is that it leaves you exposed to big rushing plays from the QB when the offense sends the receivers deep. Basically, the defenders follow the receivers and this leaves huge sections of green grass for the QB. Is it possible that whatever extra vigilance teams are using to take away the deep ball is benefitting Wilson as a runner? I have no idea if it is or not, because I don't know. It's just pure causality with some logic behind it.

It's worth noting too that Wilson is not Kaepernick. He's not racking up very many of these yards on option keepers and designed plays. On most of them, he looks and looks and looks for a deep throw before taking off.

Whatever the reason, I have been extremely impressed with Wilson's decision making as a runner this season. Not only is he making the correct decisions and making plays with his feet, but he's much more decisive at it than last year. I don't think he's going to finish with 1000 yards rushing, but he very well might lead the NFL in QB rushing first downs by the time the season is over. And since this has happened 3 games in a row, I am beginning to suspect that Wilson's rushing improvisation has become a staple of our offensive gameplan. Not just an option B, but an option A for a lot of plays.

Yeah, absolutely I'd say you're correct. That said, Russell Wilson seemingly running all the time frankly scares the heck out of me. Yes, I know that he appears to know when to go down and how to avoid taking the full on jarring body shots ... but all it takes is just 1 overly-zealous defender who has a "sweep the leg Cobra Kai" mentality and a full head of steam and Wilson could be seriously hurt. I'm completely with Holmgren on that.

The lack of a deep passing game (and the lack of fear of a true HR threat) is really hurting us IMO (i.e. Harvin's absence.) That, the offensive line issues, and what appears to be painfully simple offensive schemes is hamstringing the Hawks and are reasons why you've seen an increasing number of Wilson runs. In this last game, several times they flashed an All-22 aerial view from above on a few of those Wilson runs ... and EVERY TIME you could see that the Titans basically had everyone covered. That's an issue in my opinion.

Now, will Zack Miller's return and Percy Harvin's incorporation in to this offense help? Certainly I believe that it will. But the problems go deeper than that IMO. Seattle is averaging 13.3 Yards/Reception -- that's the 5th Highest Yards/Reception in the NFL. Last season, Seattle had a 12.5 Yards/Reception average -- again finishing in the Top 5 in that category.

Now I'm not complaining about that whatsoever per se ... but the pattern has become pretty transparent to opposing defensive coordinators. Seattle (when they pass the ball) is a long strike offense -- most times they are looking to hit those 12-15 yard+ patterns. Unfortunately, up to this point, this hasn't been a team that's filled with tons of guys who are exceedingly fast and can really strike fear in to an opposing defensive backfield (i.e. a receiver who can run in the 4.3's.) So, coordinators have looked at Bevell's schemes ... looked at Seattle's personnel ... and have been (for the most part) been able to cover our receivers fairly well.

That said, I WAS a bit encouraged towards the 3rd and 4th Quarters where you all of a sudden started seeing some of the misdirection and quick hitting WR screens being incorporated in there. They have GOT to have a lot more of those quick hitters (3 step drop, get the ball out fast) kind of routes if this offense is going to be successful long term. Percy Harvin was an absolute master at turning those 5 yard receptions in to 15-20 yard gains when he was in Minnesota. It's my hope that we'll start to see those kind of routes become a part of our offense when he comes back.

Holmgren and others have pointed out that this offense has at times been too predictable (kind of ironic, as that was a complaint that I leveled against Holmgren's teams all the time.) He's right though, as that predictability, coupled with all the other issues I noted above is directly correlated with the massive increase in Russell Wilson scrambles. I'm not saying I'm opposed to Wilson calling his own number and taking off on occasion (far from it.) What I'm saying is ... is that we're going to that well far too often IMO.

In the end, I'd say you're right Kearly in your contention that Wilson's rushes DO appear to have become Option A in many cases. My response to that (and to Bevell) would be: Create Other Options by mixing it up (short, long, trap runs, screens, etc.) and doing the unexpected at times (what's happened to a lot of those trick plays we saw last year?). Otherwise, you are seriously gambling, as it's just a matter of time before Wilson is being taken off on the golf cart.
 

TwistedHusky

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I agree.

You don't even need to be Cobra Kai to do that, the rules of tackling currently favor targeting the knees vs targeting the midsection because the instinctive reaction to protect oneself (ie fetal position, ducking to protect the midsection, etc) all lead to the risk that the offensive player lowers the helmet into the area that was the midsection being targeted.

Even if you draw the flag for going too low, you probably run just as high a risk going high anyway and frankly you offset the risk of drawing the flag with the knowledge that you might draw the flag but remove the target's ability to contribute as they might be temporarily or permanently incapacitated.

Given that kind of rule structure, the odds of your QB getting injured go up significantly. Now the question is whether we think we stand the same chance without our QB and I think anyone can answer that one. Just watch the Browns/Bills game again for a perfect example of this. Both teams got their chances for the rest of the season hurt and the Browns might have actually lost the best shot at a good QB they had in a few years - Hoyer was doing a great job of getting rid of the ball quickly and decisively. Now they have to draft another QB and hope, all because their QB did not get out of bounds when running along the sideline.
 

SuperbOwl

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Sure, the deep ball has been taken away.

But, as no one has pointed out - The Seattle Seahawk's lead the league in "Explosive Plays" at 53 for the year. 1 ahead of the might Peyton Manning led Denver Broncos.

What it breaks down to right now is; 8 in the box, with a high deep safety against us, sound familiar?? Yeah, that is because that is how we play defense. Marshawn keeps an extra in the box, our non deep threat WR's get Man to Man with a single high safety deep.

Now the most important answer is a combination of Both, but mainly: PERCY HARVIN, having a WR who demands more than man to man, who can take a 4 yard route to the house at any given moment. Or who can also beat you up the seam or for a red line play.
Defenses will be FORCED to play 2 deep safeties, or risk the big play/ vs play 8 in the box and leave the deep secondary very, very, very, at risk to the BIG PLAY.

This is why we risked a 1st round pick for Harvin period, he TILT's the field, Tilts the field is what Snieder and Pete dream of from players. Percy makes you make a choice against our O, neither are great and both can be exploited. Put in extra in the box and get beat deep, or short with YAC. Or put 2 man deep, and get mounted, gashed and prison raped by Beastmode.

Either way, we are 5-1 now, leading the league in "Explosive" plays without an absolute superstar YAC guy. Without a probowl/all pro Left Tackle. A top 5 blocking TE..... Our defense is pretty much top 5 in EVERYTHING.

We are all on an exciting ride at this moment, but we are currently still going up the big hill that leads to the thrills and screams!

It's only going to get better people!
 

Zebulon Dak

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SuperbOwl":3bz7lv1q said:
Sure, the deep ball has been taken away.

But, as no one has pointed out - The Seattle Seahawk's lead the league in "Explosive Plays" at 53 for the year. 1 ahead of the might Peyton Manning led Denver Broncos.

What it breaks down to right now is; 8 in the box, with a high deep safety against us, sound familiar?? Yeah, that is because that is how we play defense. Marshawn keeps an extra in the box, our non deep threat WR's get Man to Man with a single high safety deep.

Now the most important answer is a combination of Both, but mainly: PERCY HARVIN, having a WR who demands more than man to man, who can take a 4 yard route to the house at any given moment. Or who can also beat you up the seam or for a red line play.
Defenses will be FORCED to play 2 deep safeties, or risk the big play/ vs play 8 in the box and leave the deep secondary very, very, very, at risk to the BIG PLAY.

This is why we risked a 1st round pick for Harvin period, he TILT's the field, Tilts the field is what Snieder and Pete dream of from players. Percy makes you make a choice against our O, neither are great and both can be exploited. Put in extra in the box and get beat deep, or short with YAC. Or put 2 man deep, and get mounted, gashed and prison raped by Beastmode.

Either way, we are 5-1 now, leading the league in "Explosive" plays without an absolute superstar YAC guy. Without a probowl/all pro Left Tackle. A top 5 blocking TE..... Our defense is pretty much top 5 in EVERYTHING.

We are all on an exciting ride at this moment, but we are currently still going up the big hill that leads to the thrills and screams!

It's only going to get better people!

I like you.
 

hox

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SuperbOwl":ifs6c5jl said:
Sure, the deep ball has been taken away.

But, as no one has pointed out - The Seattle Seahawk's lead the league in "Explosive Plays" at 53 for the year. 1 ahead of the might Peyton Manning led Denver Broncos.

What it breaks down to right now is; 8 in the box, with a high deep safety against us, sound familiar?? Yeah, that is because that is how we play defense. Marshawn keeps an extra in the box, our non deep threat WR's get Man to Man with a single high safety deep.

Now the most important answer is a combination of Both, but mainly: PERCY HARVIN, having a WR who demands more than man to man, who can take a 4 yard route to the house at any given moment. Or who can also beat you up the seam or for a red line play.
Defenses will be FORCED to play 2 deep safeties, or risk the big play/ vs play 8 in the box and leave the deep secondary very, very, very, at risk to the BIG PLAY.

This is why we risked a 1st round pick for Harvin period, he TILT's the field, Tilts the field is what Snieder and Pete dream of from players. Percy makes you make a choice against our O, neither are great and both can be exploited. Put in extra in the box and get beat deep, or short with YAC. Or put 2 man deep, and get mounted, gashed and prison raped by Beastmode.

Either way, we are 5-1 now, leading the league in "Explosive" plays without an absolute superstar YAC guy. Without a probowl/all pro Left Tackle. A top 5 blocking TE..... Our defense is pretty much top 5 in EVERYTHING.

We are all on an exciting ride at this moment, but we are currently still going up the big hill that leads to the thrills and screams!

It's only going to get better people!

Great post.
 

RiverDog

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Wow. Good comments.

Russell has had some very good success scrambling for big yardage, and I don't care what Russell say about not liking to run, anytime anyone has success, it breeds confidence, and that confidence could be causing him to opt more for running the ball for a sure first down rather than take a 50/50 chance of hitting on a passing play for really big yardage.

I'm not complaining. Unless Russell has a sure fire wide open receiver or if the game clock is an issue, I'm perfectly content to see him move the chains by scrambling. It will cause the defense more fits trying to defend him and will make DB's and LB's come off their assignments earlier.
 

thebanjodude

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pehawk":1ojelsyk said:
Also, it completely takes the wind out of a defense; mentally and phyically. If the goal is sustained drives and physical domination, Wilson keeping it accomplishes that better than a long pass.

When you're outmatched across the oline, try to fatigue that fatties across the Dline. With the oline THIS injured, its a reasonable strategy.

XOXO

Tony Ventrulla

I hate you Tony
 

mrblitz

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one thing would be to get luke willson more involved. he's already made some catches, and could be a consistent mismatch against the coverage assigned against him. willson's combination of size/speed could be a bigger weapon in this offense.
 

thebanjodude

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SuperbOwl":1ajqkqh3 said:
Sure, the deep ball has been taken away.

But, as no one has pointed out - The Seattle Seahawk's lead the league in "Explosive Plays" at 53 for the year. 1 ahead of the might Peyton Manning led Denver Broncos.

What it breaks down to right now is; 8 in the box, with a high deep safety against us, sound familiar?? Yeah, that is because that is how we play defense. Marshawn keeps an extra in the box, our non deep threat WR's get Man to Man with a single high safety deep.

Now the most important answer is a combination of Both, but mainly: PERCY HARVIN, having a WR who demands more than man to man, who can take a 4 yard route to the house at any given moment. Or who can also beat you up the seam or for a red line play.
Defenses will be FORCED to play 2 deep safeties, or risk the big play/ vs play 8 in the box and leave the deep secondary very, very, very, at risk to the BIG PLAY.

This is why we risked a 1st round pick for Harvin period, he TILT's the field, Tilts the field is what Snieder and Pete dream of from players. Percy makes you make a choice against our O, neither are great and both can be exploited. Put in extra in the box and get beat deep, or short with YAC. Or put 2 man deep, and get mounted, gashed and prison raped by Beastmode.

Either way, we are 5-1 now, leading the league in "Explosive" plays without an absolute superstar YAC guy. Without a probowl/all pro Left Tackle. A top 5 blocking TE..... Our defense is pretty much top 5 in EVERYTHING.

We are all on an exciting ride at this moment, but we are currently still going up the big hill that leads to the thrills and screams!

It's only going to get better people!

A+
 

Hawks46

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SuperbOwl":3fd6rge5 said:
Sure, the deep ball has been taken away.

But, as no one has pointed out - The Seattle Seahawk's lead the league in "Explosive Plays" at 53 for the year. 1 ahead of the might Peyton Manning led Denver Broncos.

What it breaks down to right now is; 8 in the box, with a high deep safety against us, sound familiar?? Yeah, that is because that is how we play defense. Marshawn keeps an extra in the box, our non deep threat WR's get Man to Man with a single high safety deep.

Now the most important answer is a combination of Both, but mainly: PERCY HARVIN, having a WR who demands more than man to man, who can take a 4 yard route to the house at any given moment. Or who can also beat you up the seam or for a red line play.
Defenses will be FORCED to play 2 deep safeties, or risk the big play/ vs play 8 in the box and leave the deep secondary very, very, very, at risk to the BIG PLAY.

This is why we risked a 1st round pick for Harvin period, he TILT's the field, Tilts the field is what Snieder and Pete dream of from players. Percy makes you make a choice against our O, neither are great and both can be exploited. Put in extra in the box and get beat deep, or short with YAC. Or put 2 man deep, and get mounted, gashed and prison raped by Beastmode.

Either way, we are 5-1 now, leading the league in "Explosive" plays without an absolute superstar YAC guy. Without a probowl/all pro Left Tackle. A top 5 blocking TE..... Our defense is pretty much top 5 in EVERYTHING.

We are all on an exciting ride at this moment, but we are currently still going up the big hill that leads to the thrills and screams!

It's only going to get better people!

This is a good point, and something I was bitching about so far this season. Harvin has elite speed, but you didn't see him being used vertically a lot with Minnesota. Some of this was Ponder's lack of arm strength, but a lot of it is playing to Harvin's real strength: elite acceleration. He's fast, but he might have the best acceleration in the league. He's a terror underneath, and close to the LOS; it's hard to stop a guy catching a pass within the first few yards. Then, he makes a guy miss and it's on. Problem is, we don't seem to used those routes (although we did throw a few screens Tate's way...one for a loss and another to pretty good effect).

As for Kearly's OP, I see it as a couple of things: teams are taking the deep ball away (it's easier with the absurdedly simple route trees we have), and lack of protection. I've watched as Wilson will make two quick reads and start moving. He'll take one more gander down the field and since our WRs are all deep, he'll run it as he sees a lot of open space. At times, the pass pro is so bad that Wilson bails from the pocket early, and I also think this is due to his success in running the ball. It's also reasonable as he's getting hit a hell of a lot more in the pocket than he is running the ball. Wilson has stated he doesn't like running the ball, but he's also a competitor and he knows it's effective, so he'll probably keep doing it.
 

Sarlacc83

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SuperbOwl":pqa2f2oc said:
Sure, the deep ball has been taken away.

But, as no one has pointed out - The Seattle Seahawk's lead the league in "Explosive Plays" at 53 for the year. 1 ahead of the might Peyton Manning led Denver Broncos.

What it breaks down to right now is; 8 in the box, with a high deep safety against us, sound familiar?? Yeah, that is because that is how we play defense. Marshawn keeps an extra in the box, our non deep threat WR's get Man to Man with a single high safety deep.

Now the most important answer is a combination of Both, but mainly: PERCY HARVIN, having a WR who demands more than man to man, who can take a 4 yard route to the house at any given moment. Or who can also beat you up the seam or for a red line play.
Defenses will be FORCED to play 2 deep safeties, or risk the big play/ vs play 8 in the box and leave the deep secondary very, very, very, at risk to the BIG PLAY.

This is why we risked a 1st round pick for Harvin period, he TILT's the field, Tilts the field is what Snieder and Pete dream of from players. Percy makes you make a choice against our O, neither are great and both can be exploited. Put in extra in the box and get beat deep, or short with YAC. Or put 2 man deep, and get mounted, gashed and prison raped by Beastmode.

Either way, we are 5-1 now, leading the league in "Explosive" plays without an absolute superstar YAC guy. Without a probowl/all pro Left Tackle. A top 5 blocking TE..... Our defense is pretty much top 5 in EVERYTHING.

We are all on an exciting ride at this moment, but we are currently still going up the big hill that leads to the thrills and screams!

It's only going to get better people!

Welcome to .net. Please stay.
 

aawolf

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Pat Kirwan and Jim Miller were talking about deep targets by QBs on "Moving the Chains" on Sirius NFL Radio yesterday. They were talking about how the threat of the deep ball impacts the game by forcing defenses to take notice they can get beat down the field. They were going through the list of QBs with the most deep targets over 20 yards--Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, and Russell Wilson all sitting on top of this statistic. They said that it opens up the short crossing routes by moving players deep. They said that RW averages 1 deep target per quarter, which is just about perfect to keep two safeties deep. This opens the run and the short passes in other downs which helps.
 

Schadie001

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Seems as though Baldwin is the only WR to consistently get open but most of his routes are mid range. Tate and Rice just haven't got much separation that I could tell, combine that with the Oline not playing well in pass pro and we see Wilson taking the safe play and running.
 
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