Where did Pete go wrong?

Hawknight

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Pete has been undeniably one of Seattle's great coaches of all time. Respect has been earned and a legacy written into the Seahawks history books. A forever legend in the eyes of most Seahawk fans.

Where did he start to lose what he once had with the LOB, Russell Wilson days? For a defensive coach, why did we have so many issues on both sides of the ball, but especiallyon the defensive side? Why did it go downhill and why was he not able recreate the success he had in the beginning? This is in no way a mockery of Pete, but an inquiry as to what changed and if things were not working why not the necessary changes to make it work again. He has the experience, knowledge and the attitude to be successful, but did he lose control of it all? I guess I've pondered this for some time and wondered why with so much talent on our team currently, why did the team have so many issues? I am both sad that Pete is gone and ecstatic that MacDonald is now on board. Maybe the answers are obvious to some, but I've been left confused over the last several seasons having more questions with each season as of late.
 

Aircrew

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Great question, I think we all have wondered that exactly as you have. I hope there's a documentary someday about precisely this. But, if I had to venture a guess, I'd say he got comfortable, maybe a little cocky, and started making bad decisions on players, coaches and philosophy. And, inadvertently enabled a narcissistic, primadonna QB who tried derailing the team for his own accomplishments and accolades.
 

strohmin

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Pete has been undeniably one of Seattle's great coaches of all time. Respect has been earned and a legacy written into the Seahawks history books. A forever legend in the eyes of most Seahawk fans.

Where did he start to lose what he once had with the LOB, Russell Wilson days? For a defensive coach, why did we have so many issues on both sides of the ball, but especiallyon the defensive side? Why did it go downhill and why was he not able recreate the success he had in the beginning? This is in no way a mockery of Pete, but an inquiry as to what changed and if things were not working why not the necessary changes to make it work again. He has the experience, knowledge and the attitude to be successful, but did he lose control of it all? I guess I've pondered this for some time and wondered why with so much talent on our team currently, why did the team have so many issues? I am both sad that Pete is gone and ecstatic that MacDonald is now on board. Maybe the answers are obvious to some, but I've been left confused over the last several seasons having more questions with each season as of late.
It changed when Pete decided he didnt want a team of Baldwin, Sherm and Earls who wanted to win so bad that they held everyone including themselves accountable. Instead he wanted a team full of Russell Wilsons who acted like everything was sunshine and rainbows no matter how bad things were. Eventually it became a team with no accountability whatsoever.
 

JayhawkMike

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My long held theory is that coaches in all sports - with a few exceptions - cement their approach to the game when they have achieved at the highest levels.

PC won a super bowl. He knew how to do that - in 2013. He tried to replicate that. He failed to do so but kept trying the same methods despite the league changing.

My other thought is the "Do your damn job" culture turned into the "Loyalty" culture. While I like certain players IF they are not doing their job I want them gone. With PC they stayed and signed extensions. Add that to the numerous failed reclamation projects where he just thought he was better than other coaches at getting more out of players. I think I can count on one finger how many of those succeeded. Oh and the "we are smarter than every other team" draft reaches for a half dozen years . . . drafts that John Butler would have been embarrassed about (yes blast waaaaay from the past)

So TL/DR Stubbornness and Pride.
 

chris98251

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Pete has been around a while, look at Bud Grant and Don Shula as well, reached the top of the Mountain and went to Super Bowls, win or lose they got there, stayed with that format after their runs but never quite achieved that success again, league caught up to them and they didn't adapt. Think Pete falls into that as well.
 

keasley45

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It changed when Pete decided he didnt want a team of Baldwin, Sherm and Earls who wanted to win so bad that they held everyone including themselves accountable. Instead he wanted a team full of Russell Wilsons who acted like everything was sunshine and rainbows no matter how bad things were. Eventually it became a team with no accountability whatsoever.
Thats a pretty solid synopsis.

Pete had all the right ideas, intentions and a method that worked incredibly well. He built a culture and the players bought into it and made it their own. But when that group of guys began to hold the standard on their own, they called out anyone and everyone who was falling short and did so in a not so 'Pete', supportive way. They were straight up. It was part of the competition that bred excellence. But Pete developed a strange fatherly type bond with Russ and defended him when the criticism fell his way. And instead of encouraging accountability across all of his players he excluded Russand it eventually broke the lockerroom. When the LOB guys spoke up they were invited to leave and Pete neve again set out to build a team that would take on a life of its own... even though within that life, was the accountability it needed.

He went over the top in positive reinforcement and looked for great stories in players instead of great players. The aggressive attitude was neutered, and 'try hard and never give up' replaced it. Failure was acceptable, as long as you found a way to rally and overcome.

But he never seemed to factor in the simple fact that the original team all came in together. They all started from square 0 or 1. They were bonded. They won respect together. They won games together. They won a championship together. He though thr magic he brought was alone, enough to build what he had again. But without the magic connection the original group had, no other iteration managed to elevate the way he thought they might. And, he never explored way in which to mandate the accountability across the team that that original LOB group self sustained. His coaches weren't hard enough. The scheme wasn't nimble enough. His staff wasn't sharp enough. But through all of it, toward the end, I think he valued coming together to grow, however incrementally, above the potential of a team that should have been better than it was.
 

Spin Doctor

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When Carroll came into the NFL, he came with a unique prospective. Many of the guys we brought onto the team, Pete had experience with in some way, either coaching, recruiting or coaching against. Carroll also had an insight that most in the NFL missed. You see, previous to Pete, big corners were often seen as a liability. The prevailing thought was their hips would be too tight and coverage and they wouldn't be able to make the transitions quick enough. Carroll saw many of the offenses trending towards bigger receivers. He was able to properly identify an overlooked class of players.

Carroll's defenses back then still used the same coverage schema, but the defense was far more aggressive. We would line up right across from the receivers and mug them at the LOS with heavy press coverage. It was virtually impossible for some of those opposing receivers to get off of the likes of Brandon Browner and Sherman. To mitigate his corners weaknesses, we leaned heavily on a rangy free safety. You see, Thomas made all of this work. Thomas was fast and he could cover a lot of ground. Chancellor acted almost like a fourth linebacker at times and was given credit for being the field general and leader of the defense.

Carroll's playbook was dead simple and the players noticed it too. The main thing here was it required a lot of discipline, communication and everyone doing their job.

Pretty soon everyone was clambering for undersized pass rushers and giant corners. This means, the players the Hawks got insane value out of were now in vogue. Another issue that cropped up was building this style of defense was EXTREMELY expensive. Dan Quinn mentioned as much in an interview while he was with the Cowboys. He said it was still an effective system, but it's hard to assemble all of the right players for the job. It's an honest system that is just lining up and allowing players to do their thing. The assignments were easy and dead simple, but it worked on the principal that everyone has to execute those simple concepts.

Seattle went on to have the most seasons straight of being a number 1 defense in scoring. I believe it was something like 5 years of dominance. The problem is, the NFL is called the not for long league for a reason. Teams adapted as this became the main defensive meta. The NFL also made several changes here that specifically cracked down on this defense. They made it harder to press corners like we did. Several rule changes really neutered this defensive philosophy.

The changes to the NFL rules are what really started Pete's downfall imo. First thing that happened is several changes, including less practice time, and less physical practices. If you remember, Pete and the Seahawks got fined for being too physical in practice. Sounds like something that is hard to believe after watching the current iteration of the Hawks doesn't it? Offenses also came out that were REALLY good at exploiting this style of defense. Shanahan and McVay practically wrote the book on exploiting this defensive scheme.

This is where things really start to go downhill. After Dan Quinn, Pete really dropped the ball on the hires. Ken Norton Jr. and Clint Hurtt were unqualified for the job, while Richards just wasn't a great DC. It became clear to Carroll that the changing landscape of the NFL was leaving his scheme behind and he had issues finding the personnel to play his defensive correctly. The issue here is, we tried implementing systems that neither he, nor the staff he assembled knew how to run properly.

With the Seahawks defense had to adapt with the changing landscape of NFL offenses, but Pete didn't hire the right guys to tackle that job. I also ponder if the changes in practice rules in addition to trying to implement a scheme that Carroll had little experience with had anything to do with the Seahawks poor discipline and tackling.

We also have to talk about Pete Carroll's tendency to not hold his coaches accountable or his QB accountable. Bevell stood up there on the podium after the Super Bowl call and blamed his players. Russell, and Pete took responsibility, but Bevell refused to do so. We hung onto Cable and Bevell for way longer than we should've. We brought in Schottenheimer who was actually very successful here in Seattle and showed him the door because we were trying to placate a passive aggressive QB that was having a temper tantrum, despite being put in the best position to succeed given his skillsets.

Pete's I'm in, we all we got, we all we need philosophy he crafted backfired when there was a lack of consistency, especially with his coaches. I've heard KJ say that he often avoided having the hard conversations. Lack of accountability was a huge problem at the end of Carroll's tenure here in Seattle. It's also worth noting that during the LOB's prime, they often held themselves accountable. Kam Chancellor and Doug Baldwin would call people out if they weren't doing their jobs.

Pete's management style was both a gift and a curse at the same time. Players just started checking out after awhile and having a caviler attitude. We also started bringing in a bunch of guys that didn't fit the scheme or culture here in Seattle (Jamal Adams, Harvin, Graham).

TL;DR

Pete Carroll's scheme was neutered with rule changes, didn't hold the right guys accountable, struggled to adapt to modern NFL offenses and rule changes, hired the wrong guys to implement changes on defense.
 

Cyrus12

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Heck it goes differently if we hand it to Beast Mode twice and LOSE the game. Though we wouldn't have.
They had a timeout left and it was 2nd down?? Or 3rd.?? I dont wanna watch again to find out.. Lynch gets in but even if he didn't then dial up something for 4th down. It was just a terrible call and damn it still haunts me to this day.
 

JayhawkMike

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They had a timeout left and it was 2nd down?? Or 3rd.?? I dont wanna watch again to find out.. Lynch gets in but even if he didn't then dial up something for 4th down. It was just a terrible call and damn it still haunts me to this day.
The interception was on 2nd down and they did have a timeout or two.
 

94Smith

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My opinion is that they did a great job on drafting and then a terrible job of drafting and pete was not a good enough coach to overcome it. Last years draft was too little to late. If the team does not improve Schneider will be the next casualty
 

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