What would it take for you to want Pete fired?

[pittpnthrs]

JFC this place.

I agree. Its amazing how many people on this board are so content with 1st and 2nd round playoff exits.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

JFC this place.

I agree. Its amazing how many people on this board are so content with 1st and 2nd round playoff exits.

Content? No.

Realistic? Yes.

If you're an NFL fan and have lived outside the greater New England area before or after the Tom Brady era? You shouldn't ever EXPECT deep playoff runs and Lombardi trophies, no matter who's coach and QB.

What I'm shocked by on a daily basis on this board is how so many people give free passes to Russell Wilson and think he walks on water.

Watch the all-22 tape on the playoff game last year against the Rams, Russell was hesitant, had open guys and didn't pull the trigger time after time.

https://www.therams.com/video/rams-defe ... rd-weekend

Is he still one of the top 5-7 QB's in the league? Yep. Is he also partly to mostly responsible for his own failures when we lose? Also yep.

But I know, much easier to beat up Pete, Schotty and we're soon to see dozens and dozens of "Was Waldron the wrong hire?" and eventually "FIRE SHANE WALDRON AND PETE!" threads over the next 3-4 months.

Cause can't be Russell's fault right? Dude's infallible.

 

[Hockey Guy]

JFC this place.

I agree. Its amazing how many people on this board are so content with 1st and 2nd round playoff exits.

JFC this place.

 

[pittpnthrs]

JFC this place.

I agree. Its amazing how many people on this board are so content with 1st and 2nd round playoff exits.

Content? No.

Realistic? Yes.

If you're an NFL fan and have lived outside the greater New England area before or after the Tom Brady era? You shouldn't ever EXPECT deep playoff runs and Lombardi trophies, no matter who's coach and QB.

What I'm shocked by on a daily basis on this board is how so many people give free passes to Russell Wilson and think he walks on water.

Watch the all-22 tape on the playoff game last year against the Rams, Russell was hesitant, had open guys and didn't pull the trigger time after time.

https://www.therams.com/video/rams-defe ... rd-weekend

Is he still one of the top 5-7 QB's in the league? Yep. Is he also partly to mostly responsible for his own failures when we lose? Also yep.

But I know, much easier to beat up Pete, Schotty and we're soon to see dozens and dozens of "Was Waldron the wrong hire?" and eventually "FIRE SHANE WALDRON AND PETE!" threads over the next 3-4 months.

Cause can't be Russell's fault right? Dude's infallible.

If Wilson is the issue then they should get rid of him. That would tell the tale wouldnt it? Hawks would be a 4 win team without Wilson.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If Wilson is the issue then they should get rid of him. That would tell the tale wouldnt it? Hawks would be a 4 win team without Wilson.

He's not the issue, he's a great QB.

But most times when we lose he did not have a great game, and that certainly includes the recent playoff losses. You hook Schotty up to a lie detector and ask him to go over the tape with you, and he'll show you a dozen easy high school level reads Russell missed.

That's my only point in this conversation, it's not all on Pete that we haven't gone further in the playoffs, it's on Russell to. You make your QB the highest paid player in the league, he HAS to elevate his game in the playoffs or else you're not going to advance......and he hasn't done that the past 2-3 years. In fact, he's played mediocre to poor.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Wilson is not without blame.

But you cannot play the last half of the year one way, and then suddenly expect to shift gears and play an entirely different way in the playoffs without issues.

Wilson was not given a gameplan that helped him very much at all. He had to make it work, and didn't. But let's not pretend that he wasn't given a esh sandwich to start with.

I don't think the Seahawks would do better without Pete because I don't think they would replace him with anyone worthwhile. That ship has sailed. Maybe we can get an up-and-comer who just wants to work with a great QB like Wilson - but we would have to get lucky.

What doesn't make sense is to say that demanding better than literally just being a glorified wildcard is being 'entitled'.

The NFL is tilted to assure that teams with great QBs have the advantage. It is literally the linchpin of playoff success. To lose to a team with 1/2 a QB is laughable. But we did it.

And having a great QB is a finite experience. Eventually, we won't. And we will start losing. So when you HAVE a great QB you need to take advantage of it. We did, for a few years, and since then we haven't.

At this point, expecting change makes no sense. So things won't get much worse, we will probably be making wildcard games. But they likely won't get any better.

Pete is not a good enough gameday coach (strategy or tactics) to beat a division winner in the playoffs. MAYBE a super weak division like the NFC Least of a few years ago. But that is it. We are at a disadvantage when we do not have a materially better roster than the opponent.

Pete isn't going to another SB as a coach. That is almost a given. But he will get us to the playoffs (as long as we have Wilson). Whether you are happy with that or not depends on your own expectations. But we have near a decade of results to indicate the results will be the same.

People wanting more success when we literally have one of the keys to playoff success on the team but do not adequately leverage is not that ridiculous.

 

[BASF]

The NFL is tilted to assure that teams with great QBs have the advantage. It is literally the linchpin of playoff success

This ignores the fact that half of the past ten Super Bowls had mediocre QBs on one team.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

Wilson was not given a gameplan that helped him very much at all. He had to make it work, and didn't. But let's not pretend that he wasn't given a esh sandwich to start with..

This premise is purely hypothetical, because we've never seen Russell in another offense.

What Pete and his coordinators have done with Russell for a decade now is what Russell did at Wisconsin, and what most of his coaches have done with him, allow him to use his mobility, strong arm and exceptional long ball throws to buy time and make plays downfield.

Let me ask you guys this, if after this year in a supposed "more Russell friendly" Shane Waldron offense we honestly don't see a big difference in Russell's stats and decision making, are you willing to say maybe we had reached Russell's potential all along?

Because while I agree that Pete's rudimentary approach to offensive philosophies hasn't exactly taken the NFL world by storm, I also believe he and Bevell/Schotty have done a decent job of catering the offense to Russell's skillset......thus his ascension into a top 5 QB and on his way to putting on a gold jacket someday.

 

[TwistedHusky]

I would want to see Wilson somewhere else before I did that Largent.

Pete usually presents 3 big challenges that make it harder for Wilson:

1 - He does not change (unless forced to). Pete will force a gameplan almost regardless of injury, personnel, or how the opposing team plays. If anyone will continue to run into 8 or even 9 man boxes, it is Pete.

2 - Pete does little to disguise tendencies or even tactics. Sometimes I wonder if it is a macho thing.

3 - Pete does not look to exploit weaknesses or mismatches.

(I don't see ANY of the above changing with the new OC but would love to be pleasantly surprised)


Now the above is not a lock, SOMETIMES, Pete does these things. But as a general expectation? Expect Pete to follow the above.

If you are a QB, and not able to exploit weaknesses tactically (outside of within the play). And your opponent generally has a good idea of the types of plays you are running, when, and why. And you not only are predictable but forced to play with gameplans that give the other team advantages....aren't you being held back?

A lot of the low-hanging fruit gets removed.

If you are being forced to play against defenses that are set up to defeat you (one reason Wilson often has to play outside of the plays, by running around, improvising, etc), then it is harder to be effective.

A coach that understands Wilson's strengths, uses them, but just does not do the above is already an advantage.

Pete is a guy that lets the other team peek at his cards, if not throwing them completely on the table. He wants to win by forcing his will on the other team. It sometimes works but much of the time his players have to overcome this.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

All fair points, but doesn't answer MY hypothetical question.

IF Pete allows Waldron to take over and supposedly tap into all the untapped Russell Wilson amazingness you guys keep talking about................AND we don't see a markedly improved QB, are you willing to admit what I think, and that's that Russell is as good as he's ever going to be?

I understand that this might not happen, but I'm asking you if it does, are you willing to admit maybe, just maybe Russell is already at his peak potential and Pete really wasn't holding him back.

 

[chris98251]

All fair points, but doesn't answer MY hypothetical question.

IF Pete allows Waldron to take over and supposedly tap into all the untapped Russell Wilson amazingness you guys keep talking about................AND we don't see a markedly improved QB, are you willing to admit what I think, and that's that Russell is as good as he's ever going to be?

I understand that this might not happen, but I'm asking you if it does, are you willing to admit maybe, just maybe Russell is already at his peak potential and Pete really wasn't holding him back.

I think if Waldron allows Wilson to play wide open and as he gets timing and the offense down has turnovers Pete will pull the plug on wide open.

We see snippets of crossing patterns, slants, screens, delayed Half Back passes etc so far, I think those are elements we will see regularly once the season starts but in more depths and options added with TE's etc.


Pete's biggest pet peeve is the turnover, the few times he has been critical of Wilson is when he has had games with multiple turnovers, whether they were forced or not, whether they were tipped balls or not.

 

[pittpnthrs]

All fair points, but doesn't answer MY hypothetical question.

IF Pete allows Waldron to take over and supposedly tap into all the untapped Russell Wilson amazingness you guys keep talking about................AND we don't see a markedly improved QB, are you willing to admit what I think, and that's that Russell is as good as he's ever going to be?

I dont know if this question can be answered because Russ isnt the same QB he used to be 4 or 5 years ago. His mobility is nowhere what it once was. Its the reason he's practically begging for a better Oline.

 

[pittpnthrs]

I think if Waldron allows Wilson to play wide open and as he gets timing and the offense down has turnovers Pete will pull the plug on wide open.

We see snippets of crossing patterns, slants, screens, delayed Half Back passes etc so far, I think those are elements we will see regularly once the season starts but in more depths and options added with TE's etc.


Pete's biggest pet peeve is the turnover, the few times he has been critical of Wilson is when he has had games with multiple turnovers, whether they were forced or not, whether they were tipped balls or not.

This is all true. Its 'Pete Ball'. Couple games with a few turnovers and its automatically back to an ultra conservative offense to reel Wilson back in instead of letting him play through it. Maybe thats the right thing to do, but we dont know because we've never seen the alternative.

 

[pittpnthrs]

Because while I agree that Pete's rudimentary approach to offensive philosophies hasn't exactly taken the NFL world by storm, I also believe he and Bevell/Schotty have done a decent job of catering the offense to Russell's skillset......thus his ascension into a top 5 QB and on his way to putting on a gold jacket someday.

Neither of them rolled him out enough in my opinion and that always frustrated me (Rams playoff game last season,,,urgh). That and Seattle hasent ran a decent screen in about a decade. Should be the easiest play in the world, but Seattle is just not good at it.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Largent,

If those 3 things are absent with our new OC? and Wilson struggles?

Then completely makes sense to ratchet our expectations of Wilson back.

But don't you feel it is reasonable that those 3 issues, when applied to the offense, make it harder for our QB to be successful?

 

[TwistedHusky]

Largent,

If those 3 things are absent with our new OC? and Wilson struggles?

Then completely makes sense to ratchet our expectations of Wilson back.

But don't you feel it is reasonable that those 3 issues, when applied to the offense, make it harder for our QB to be successful?

 

[AgentDib]

For those frustrated by the lack of perspective in this thread it may help to look at what other fanbases think of their head coaches. No matter how successful the team is, there is a decent sized chunk of fans who criticize their coaching staff because that's how they like to engage with the sport. We could have won the Super Bowl two seasons ago and most of the critics would find excuses to have the same complaints now.

This idea that we have more talent than other teams is very dated. It was true for a couple of years while we had stars on rookie contracts and we got a Super Bowl out of it. Once we paid those star players fairly it was no longer true, and it hasn't been true for many seasons. The strict salary cap ensures that most NFL rosters are pretty close in terms of overall talent and we haven't had the draft capital to take advantage of rookie contracts in a while now.

 

[knownone]

For those frustrated by the lack of perspective in this thread it may help to look at what other fanbases think of their head coaches. No matter how successful the team is, there is a decent sized chunk of fans who criticize their coaching staff because that's how they like to engage with the sport. We could have won the Super Bowl two seasons ago and most of the critics would find excuses to have the same complaints now.

This idea that we have more talent than other teams is very dated. It was true for a couple of years while we had stars on rookie contracts and we got a Super Bowl out of it. Once we paid those star players fairly it was no longer true, and it hasn't been true for many seasons. The strict salary cap ensures that most NFL rosters are pretty close in terms of overall talent and we haven't had the draft capital to take advantage of rookie contracts in a while now.

I 100% agree with you.

It's fair to question if Pete and John are the best fit for the job. However, it's absurd to assume they are the problem based on a lack of postseason success. There are far too many variables in a football season to assume that every negative fall on their shoulders and every success is outside their control. That's silly logic that we cannot take seriously. Instead, the question should be whether Pete and John bring more to the table than they takeaway, and I believe that is, without a doubt, the case.

 

[3Girls'HawkDad]

Fired, if and only if, he has a debilitating foot fetish.

Not the kind you are thinking of. Like if he is seriously into things like Bunions and corns and that is why he decided to hang around locker rooms all these years, just to get closer to those wonderful, magic feet. Take your shoes off and get comfortable he says, as he squirms in his trousers..you've had a long day, kick up your feet and I'll pour some wine he says to newly re-acquired Luke Willson.

I would fire him for sure.

But who would fire him. Bo Duke can't do it, and if I am Paul Allen's hard working sister that has 83 billion dollars I wouldn't give a rats arse who is coaching my little team, I would be hiring people to show me their corns.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Putting aside my venting and complaining about Pete for a second, since that is more catharsis.


There are only 2 reasons you fire Pete or get rid of him:

1 - Wilson wants him gone and will not stay unless he leaves

2 - Wilson is leaving and the only way to keep him is to get rid of Pete.

That is really it.

The chances of getting another coach that can consistently win is pretty low. With this ownership, likely even lower.

However, the chances of getting another QB that can produce even close to Wilson's success is significantly worse. And the chances of getting any QB that can get us to the playoffs under Pete Carroll is less than that.

So it all depends on Wilson. The rest does not matter.