Weird how bad players suddenly improve w/ competent coaches

[TwistedHusky]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bengals-al ... 50956.html


Apparently, 15-yard cushions might have been the problem.

Since the board seemed convinced that the cushions were a result of the the player being incapable of anything. It turns out that maybe the player was incapable because the system forced him into playing with giant cushions.

Flowers was horrific in coverage here.

But we were convinced it made sense to trust our coaches more than our eyes. You know, the same coaches that might include the worst DC in the NFL and whatever Carroll has turned into he veers into ineffectiveness.

The Bengals are not even a great coaching staff, just competent. But apparently better defensive minds than whatever we have.

 

[Coveryourholes]

And the beat goes on….. You always seem to present yourself as the authority on all things Seahawks — yet an opinion is but an opinion.

From that stretch of an article, Flowers was used exclusively on a tight end in a very narrow role for a total of 14 snaps. How does this even support the narrative in your ongoing drone proclaiming coaching incompetence of a coaching staff which spent plenty of time making an effort to develop him into a competent outside corner.

I suspect Flowers soured on the expectations placed upon him because he simply could not do what he needed to do and the result was an attitude not conducive to competing. The mental game is more critical than the physical at this level and it looks like Flowers had mentally checked-out.

You may be right about Flowers, but this article doesn’t show that. It does not even show an equivalency of roles or even the specificity of the plays run within such a small sample size of 14.

If you slowly back away from your narrative, you may come off as a bit more measured and truthful.


https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... owTr01.htm

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

Is anyone really all that surprised? Pete and Co have done a terrible job fostering talent unless the player already is overflowing with it, ala Wilson or DK.

 

[LTH]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bengals-already-got-big-performance-105550956.html


Apparently, 15-yard cushions might have been the problem.

Since the board seemed convinced that the cushions were a result of the the player being incapable of anything. It turns out that maybe the player was incapable because the system forced him into playing with giant cushions.

Flowers was horrific in coverage here.

But we were convinced it made sense to trust our coaches more than our eyes. You know, the same coaches that might include the worst DC in the NFL and whatever Carroll has turned into he veers into ineffectiveness.

The Bengals are not even a great coaching staff, just competent. But apparently better defensive minds than whatever we have.

I think your reaching a bit.

Flowers hasn't had a lot of playing time with Cincinnati to be able to tell... and if he is successful it could be some thing as simple as a change of scenery... it could be that there system fits him better than Seattle it could be lots of different things...

Not sure how you get bad coaching from Seattle when our corners play has improved since he left...

regardless I wish Tre good luck and continued success...


LTH

 

[ivotuk]

Cincinatti is a completely different team. They've been losing for years, and have such good defensive line depth that they couldn't find a place for Carlos Dunlap to play.

It's easy to be good on the defensive line when you're picking anywhere from the #1 Overall Pick, to the top 10 all of the time. Just look at all the players SF accumulated. Look where the Rams got Aron Donald.

"Flowers hasn't played that much."

It's a great idea to put him only on Tight Ends. Probably better than playing him as a Cornerback on Wide Receivers.

All that said, I'm a huge Trey Flowers fan, and hope he has great success in Cinci. He was good here to start, and I think lost his confidence as seen by his being right on a receiver, but then panicking and grabbing. He needed a fresh start.

 

[Maelstrom787]

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/bengals-already-got-big-performance-105550956.html


Apparently, 15-yard cushions might have been the problem.

Since the board seemed convinced that the cushions were a result of the the player being incapable of anything. It turns out that maybe the player was incapable because the system forced him into playing with giant cushions.

Flowers was horrific in coverage here.

But we were convinced it made sense to trust our coaches more than our eyes. You know, the same coaches that might include the worst DC in the NFL and whatever Carroll has turned into he veers into ineffectiveness.

The Bengals are not even a great coaching staff, just competent. But apparently better defensive minds than whatever we have.

You do realize that Tre Flowers played a total of 14 snaps against the Ravens, and then none at all against the Jets?

Big performance, alright.

People will swallow absolutely any information that confirms their priors, no vetting required.

 

[balakoth]

Sorry LTH

But our corner play looks better because.. wait whats that.. some nickle packages.. using players that we previously hadn't all year..

Oh yeah.. lets not forget the two teams we just played and their QBs

 

[TwistedHusky]

The fact that the coaches recognized that a former safety that could cover ALMOST as well as a corner, but is big, physical, and a decent tackler would be good against TEs?

15 snaps or not, they found a way to use him in a way our coaches were not smart or competent enough to.

Which is hilarious because passes to the TE KILL us.

Nobody expects he will be an all-pro. But I am betting he does better under less brain-dead coaches.

 

[nutluck]

From what I read while he hasn't gotten much play time yet, they are using him in a better roll as a 3rd coverage safety. Which seems to fit his skill set better than CB position.

 

[Seahawk_Dan]

From what I read while he hasn't gotten much play time yet, they are using him in a better roll as a 3rd coverage safety. Which seems to fit his skill set better than CB position.

Rather than the square peg, round hole that Pete is known to do with most of his players.

 

[Jville]

A weird and twisted interpretation by the original poster. Credibility lost on a naked condemnation of coaches that doesn't hold up.

Cincinnati used him as a role player. The link clearly specifies that tight end coverage was his assigned role. That cover three dime back assignment minimizes the change of direction challenges from quick wide receivers and such out on the outside. Pete Carroll thought Tre Flowers needed a fresh start. Looks like Pete was spot on. In any case, the Seahawk coaches and staff wish him the best as do I.

The relevant quote follows ...........

“In their man concepts out of dime, they disguised the matchups at times, but one constant was corner Tre Flowers matched on Baltimore tight end Mark Andrews. That was the game plan approach. On 3rd-and-15 in the first quarter, the Bengals played Cover 3 behind a three man rush with Flowers man-to-man on Andrews. Jackson unnecessarily climbed the pocket and created his own pressure that he could not escape from, resulting in a sack by defensive tackle Larry Ogunjobi. Matching up Flowers on Andrews was a strong concept and part of the reason he was limited to just three catches for 48 yards, and none on 3rd down when Flowers was matched on him.”

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I'm happy for Tre, good for him.

Is Flower's short term success an indictment on the coaching staff here? Maybe. Don't we need a much larger sample size than 3-4 games?

I do. What this article tells me is Flower's found a better fit with being in a less stressful 3rd CB position where he could be more aggressive covering TE's and 3rd WR's, and not be expected to cover 1's and 2's.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Exactly the point.

He was never a guy that should have been covering 1s or 2s.

But the idea that we could not figure it out while he was here>? That is on the coaches.

We are victimized by TEs and screen plays constantly. All we had to do was not ask Flowers to cover the WR but put him on TEs or even RBs (he is a sure tackler).

That is on the coaches. They have a system and force players to play within it, instead of building the system around the players they have.

Carroll used to find ways to use guys that worked for their strengths/weaknesses. He was not always a stubborn old man forcing square pegs into round holes.

But now here we are, covering WRs with LBs because we refuse to change out of a base defense against even 3 or 4 WR sets.

There is a distinct lack of imagination, competence, and intelligence in the defense coaches we have. And this is a prime example.

 

[toffee]

Tre was my adopted rookie and from all I read about him, he's a decent guy. He had one good year with us, his rookie year, regretfully, he regressed from that point onward.

Not sure about putting him on TEs, he got speed and height, but unlike LBs, Tre gave away quite a bit of weight and strength vs TEs.

Hoping all the best for Tre.

.

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk

 

[TwistedHusky]

He doesn't have to be bigger and stronger. He just needs to be in position and be able to tackle if the TE makes the catch. Just doing those 2 things would help immeasurably vs how we defend TEs now.

 

[12th Dimension]

Weird to be a Seahawks fan. You’d think we ‘re the Jags.

I would fire Tre all day long. He can’t turn his head to find the ball.

 

[getnasty]

The same coaches that lost to the Jets last week?

 

[Maelstrom787]

14. snaps.

 

[LTH]

Exactly the point.

He was never a guy that should have been covering 1s or 2s.

But the idea that we could not figure it out while he was here>? That is on the coaches.

We are victimized by TEs and screen plays constantly. All we had to do was not ask Flowers to cover the WR but put him on TEs or even RBs (he is a sure tackler).

That is on the coaches. They have a system and force players to play within it, instead of building the system around the players they have.

Carroll used to find ways to use guys that worked for their strengths/weaknesses. He was not always a stubborn old man forcing square pegs into round holes.

But now here we are, covering WRs with LBs because we refuse to change out of a base defense against even 3 or 4 WR sets.

There is a distinct lack of imagination, competence, and intelligence in the defense coaches we have. And this is a prime example.

I don't think Carroll has really come clean with why they let Flowers go...Your making a lot of assumptions but we don't really what the reason is that he doesn't fit in the scheme from Carroll's perspective...

We just know from your perspective which is fine but there are 2 sides to the story here


LTH

 

[LTH]

Sorry LTH

But our corner play looks better because.. wait whats that.. some nickle packages.. using players that we previously hadn't all year..

Oh yeah.. lets not forget the two teams we just played and their QBs

wait.... Oh crap... I guess you floored me with that one... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll: :roll: :34853_doh: :34853_doh: :34853_doh:





LTH