We Were All Wrong

scutterhawk

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It shouldn't need to be said.

It is better for the team to be good than for anyone to be right.


We don't know enough to know where we are right now.
But we know that near the halfway point, we are much better than anyone expected.
The defense looks better in the past 2 games. It looked awful for most of the games before that.

Everyone is hoping the defense has improved. If so, this is a very good team - is it a playoff contender? Does that matter? this is all found wins.
We should be happy we still have our Seahawk Sundays. Not clear what the problem is.
Problem is, Some folks rushing to judgement & stating that the Defense is "Garbage", crowning themselves as "Experts", when IN FACT, they are NOT, just fans with a disliking (hate) for Pete, Hurtt, and Coaches that are easy targets....Until shit blows back in their face (funny)
Not "EVERYONE" has committed an opinion of disaster for the Defense & Geno Smith.
I'm no "Expert", and neither are MOST fans in here, and that's why I am holding the 'Know it Alls' who've stated for an absolute fact, that Pete Carroll was an "All Washed up" Crap Coach, & that the "Game Had Passed Him by" & that "Geno is a Hot Garbage Quarterback" to their BS 'Know it All" statements.
 

acer1240

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Problem is, Some folks rushing to judgement & stating that the Defense is "Garbage", crowning themselves as "Experts", when IN FACT, they are NOT, just fans with a disliking (hate) for Pete, Hurtt, and Coaches that are easy targets....Until shit blows back in their face (funny)
Not "EVERYONE" has committed an opinion of disaster for the Defense & Geno Smith.
I'm no "Expert", and neither are MOST fans in here, and that's why I am holding the 'Know it Alls' who've stated for an absolute fact, that Pete Carroll was an "All Washed up" Crap Coach, & that the "Game Had Passed Him by" & that "Geno is a Hot Garbage Quarterback" to their BS 'Know it All" statements.
I for one stated that the defense was garbage because it was. Yes, it's getting a little better and I hope they keep it up. I'm kinda thinking they will. Pete has been coaching good defenses for years but when they sucked it seems that it was due to 1 single player blowing an assignment leading to a big play. There is nobody I'd rather have rebuilding a defense than Pete.
 

keasley45

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I think the lesson in this if there's a lesson in rooting for team in sport, it's that fan is a derivative of the word fanatic. Fanatics don't often think objectively. They think with there hearts and their minds. They condition themselves to fear failure as much and more often MORE than they anticipate success. And because of this, logic and analytics dont always rule the day. But both pure fanaticism and objective analytics exist. Both are a part of rooting for a team. As fans, we just have to understand that and be able to decipher between when we are being ruled by our feelings on a matter as opposed to the facts (all of them) at hand.
We need both for any of this to be entertaining. If it was all about the data, sans the volatility of Fandom, this sh!t would be boring. And if it was all about raw emotion, love and hate, eternal optimism v hopeless skepticism, it would be equally unbearable.

But 20 pages... JHC.
 

TwistedHusky

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The Defense WAS garbage. It's only been good for 2 games.
(But it's trending in the right direction, esp the secondary.)

Head Coaches rarely if ever contribute effectively at Pete's age.

Pete squandered the last 5 years of drafts. (This one might offset it.)

Pete was a defensive coach and maybe one of the best talent evaluators/developers ever.

For years, he fielded crap defense and poor returns in UDFA/FA/drafts. Reasons to indicate the game passed him by.
(If 3-5 blown drafts give us one banger? Maybe averages out.)

We have effective run-and-pass games, and the OL looks much better. The secondary may have the pieces to be exceptional.

Most importantly, we won games we usually lose (Cards in Seattle and at Chargers)

This team is better than expected. That is cause to be thrilled.
 

keasley45

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The Defense WAS garbage. It's only been good for 2 games.
(But it's trending in the right direction, esp the secondary.)

Head Coaches rarely if ever contribute effectively at Pete's age.

Pete squandered the last 5 years of drafts. (This one might offset it.)

Pete was a defensive coach and maybe one of the best talent evaluators/developers ever.

For years, he fielded crap defense and poor returns in UDFA/FA/drafts. Reasons to indicate the game passed him by.
(If 3-5 blown drafts give us one banger? Maybe averages out.)

We have effective run-and-pass games, and the OL looks much better. The secondary may have the pieces to be exceptional.

Most importantly, we won games we usually lose (Cards in Seattle and at Chargers)

This team is better than expected. That is cause to be thrilled.

Have you actually looked at the last 3 years of drafts? Repeating the same line about how our drafts sucked forever is about as blatantly false as the statement that Geno sucked last year.

And context is important. Our defense sucked last year and struggled the year before in part because our offense couldn't stay on the field. A good unit that's on the field 40 minutes a game will look average. An average unit, poor. For the last 2 years Russ was here, and you could look at the numbers even further back, we couldn't sustain drives to save our lives. We either hit a big play and scored quickly, moving the chains creatively on 1st and 2nd down, or we were garbage converting on 3rd and were a 3 and out machine.

The impact the O has had on a defense that should never have been worse Tham average was made plainly obvious in 2020 and 2021 when Pete put the kabash on the boom or bust fest and mandated a more balanced attack. In 2020, our D went from worst to one of the better units in the league. Last year - look at the difference in performance again when the reigns were taken out of #3s hands.

Is Pete at fault for allowing his qb to bring down the performance of the team? Absolutley.

But for anyone looking beyond wins and losses, he was never a coach who you'd say the game had passed by. His players never said that. Opposing coaches never thought it. And the media regards him as one of the best, still.

It's only with a myopic view of the game and tainted glasses that someone would have wanted him pulled at any point in thr last few years in favor of... who?
 

Sgt. Largent

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Pete squandered the last 5 years of drafts. (This one might offset it.)

This is a false narrative that most fans use when criticizing the GM and coach, or both. The NFL draft hit rate for the entire league is less than 20%, and over 40% are out of the league by year two or three.


So if you're looking back at our past 5 drafts, our hit rate is no worse or better than the NFL average.

Brooks, Taylor, Lewis, Parkinson, Metcalf, Barton, Penny, Dissly, Dickson, etc. vs the rest of the busts that washed out here or elsewhere post draft.

And this year's draft is going to have a crazy high hit rate.

So IMO we need to stop saying this as a criticism of Pete and John. Yes they had a 2-3 year streak of late picks and very few picks that they didn't hit on. But for going on 11 years, they've had a higher hit rate overall than the rest of the league.
 

LeaveLynchAlone

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The Defense WAS garbage. It's only been good for 2 games.
(But it's trending in the right direction, esp the secondary.)

Head Coaches rarely if ever contribute effectively at Pete's age.

Pete squandered the last 5 years of drafts. (This one might offset it.)

Pete was a defensive coach and maybe one of the best talent evaluators/developers ever.

For years, he fielded crap defense and poor returns in UDFA/FA/drafts. Reasons to indicate the game passed him by.
(If 3-5 blown drafts give us one banger? Maybe averages out.)

We have effective run-and-pass games, and the OL looks much better. The secondary may have the pieces to be exceptional.

Most importantly, we won games we usually lose (Cards in Seattle and at Chargers)

This team is better than expected. That is cause to be thrilled.

Using hyperbolic language is a clear sign to question everything that follows. The defense wasn't actually garbage, and granted they had been playing poorly there is more evidence for improvement under a Pete Carroll run team than you are willing to admit. The poor play was identified by many professionals covering the Seahawks who had actually played the game at the pro level, and what was being stated was far from the idea of garbage.

A few key plays due to scheme, assignment, tackling and communication resulted in big hits for the other side coupled with some uneven flag throwing at times. The referee problem is league wide and simply something that needs to be accepted and adjusted for. The giving up big plays is on the coaches to help the players recognize where they need to be, how to communicate what they are seeing, how to do the fundamentals like tackling and playing together to prevent the homerun plays from ever occurring.

Next poor defensive display you will say I told you so Pete sucks..... I and others will say, well it happens that's how things are in football at this level. If you want near perfection look for an overpowered high school football team that has no competition to follow - you may see what you need to from the coaching.

Every other NFL team with competent coaching will be capable of identifying some areas that they can effectively attack for the team they are playing against. The Seahawks have usually done well adjusting for how other teams are playing them.

Early in the season is often the time where in-game adjustment may be less effective especially when fielding key inexperienced players who may be just trying to breathe from one play to the next. The early failures offer a great deal of learning tape to help the inexperienced players truly see what they did wrong and how they can correct their errors.

There it is. Good on you Twisted. Nice to see you got your second wind to bash Pete. It's easy to state criticism about Pete and the team but your criticism is faulty.

What you are doing could be done for every coach of every franchise that has not made it to and won the Superbowl in any particular year. This take on Pete Carroll has no veracity.

Drafting is always a crapshoot and your making claims about the state of past drafts and past performance is simply much too thin to claim anything. And in truth the drafts have not been nearly as horrible as you drone on about. You could do research on every organization's draft, but I suspect that even if you did evaluate every team's drafting over the last five years you would find the Seahawks are far from the bottom. Again the draft is a crapshoot and hence why most teams are willing to give up draft capital for known production. Every draft also includes the UDFA and players traded for in lieu of draft capital traded. Once you definitively state that any draft or trade was bad simply means you have gone deep into opinion based on what you feel not based upon facts.

If anything, what Pete has done is amazing considering the longevity of success that the Seahawks and the fanbase have enjoyed. Is it really a surprise that the draft capital weakening with that sustained success is the result? Of course the dynamics of each franchise is much more complicated than you care to consider including the aging of excellent players whose performance will naturally decline and injuries which will happen but cannot be foreseen when, where, or how among many others things (facilities, travel, player's mental health...). There is much much more to unpack.

This anti Pete bias has clouded your vision and for most the current success cannot be argued seriously, but it is clear that you will never accept that Pete is and has been an excellent coach. You, Twisted, will always believe what you believe and excuse the truth as something other than what it is. You may want to hope the Seahawks lose on Sunday so your .500 prediction can keep your confidence in tact.

Repeating the same false narrative over and over can be very effective for some to believe but it is nothing more than your opinion and no closer to the truth.

 

SoulfishHawk

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Why are we not asking Fade his take? 🍿

And I've said it many times, I think it would physically hurt some people to just admit they were wrong about Pete. Get over it, Pete is a great coach and has been for a long time. Does he drive us nuts at time? Yes. But I have long since given up on trying to fight the Pete thing. He is doing his best coaching job, this year, right now. I was hoping they would move on the last couple years. Now? I hope he stays as long as he wants.
 

Seahawker

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I'm sure some people don't like Pete Carroll because of his mega success at USC. His winning transition with the Seahawks kind of makes his coaching history an embarrassment of riches of sorts. Kind of like Jim Harbaugh, some just hate him. Personally, I love Pete (even with a couple of warts) and hope he continues to coach for at least 4 more years to give us another shot at another Lombardy trophy.
 

TwistedHusky

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Not sure how any of that post was bashing Pete LLA. He has made changes. They seem to work. The results are better and trending in the right direction.

What part is bashing?

Those are the results Pete fielded. The relevant reason those were concerns is those were supposed to be his strengths.
We had just come off the Norton debacle. And Pete was reaching an age where most coaches lose effectiveness.

Most people in Seattle had so little faith they basically stopped wearing Seahawks gear, even 1-2 weeks before season start.

Then the games started and the defense was brutal.

The results were poor to terrible. You call it what you want.
Some of the scoring #s being put up against us were historically bad.
That is pretty close to garbage, whatever other label you use.
Even worse, the weakness was not the young secondary but the DL/LBs who are nowhere near as young.

Yes, the defense was adjusting, and we were getting some rough calls against our secondary. So there was hope. But the numbers were bad.

The results were bad.

The results are now better. Things are trending in a different direction. That's reason for optimism.

The only reason to care one way or another is the results.
 

Ozzy

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This is a false narrative that most fans use when criticizing the GM and coach, or both. The NFL draft hit rate for the entire league is less than 20%, and over 40% are out of the league by year two or three.


So if you're looking back at our past 5 drafts, our hit rate is no worse or better than the NFL average.

Brooks, Taylor, Lewis, Parkinson, Metcalf, Barton, Penny, Dissly, Dickson, etc. vs the rest of the busts that washed out here or elsewhere post draft.

And this year's draft is going to have a crazy high hit rate.

So IMO we need to stop saying this as a criticism of Pete and John. Yes they had a 2-3 year streak of late picks and very few picks that they didn't hit on. But for going on 11 years, they've had a higher hit rate overall than the rest of the league.
But even factoring in the low hit rate they have been average at best and depending on how you grade the players above I think that is being generous. I think to be fair Pete/John have admitted as much they haven't been very good. This years class is unbelievably good so I have hope they fixed their process. They deserve the benefit of the doubt I think on it.
 

Nunya

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Not sure how any of that post was bashing Pete LLA. He has made changes. They seem to work. The results are better and trending in the right direction.

What part is bashing?

Those are the results Pete fielded. The relevant reason those were concerns is those were supposed to be his strengths.
We had just come off the Norton debacle. And Pete was reaching an age where most coaches lose effectiveness.

Most people in Seattle had so little faith they basically stopped wearing Seahawks gear, even 1-2 weeks before season start.

Then the games started and the defense was brutal.

The results were poor to terrible. You call it what you want.
Some of the scoring #s being put up against us were historically bad.
That is pretty close to garbage, whatever other label you use.
Even worse, the weakness was not the young secondary but the DL/LBs who are nowhere near as young.

Yes, the defense was adjusting, and we were getting some rough calls against our secondary. So there was hope. But the numbers were bad.

The results were bad.

The results are now better. Things are trending in a different direction. That's reason for optimism.

The only reason to care one way or another is the results.
So did you do a poll or something with all Seahawk fans in the Seattle area and ask them if they were wearing their Seahawk gear??????

I live in an area where the Seahawks are fairly popular and I did not notice any decrease. Maybe there was or maybe they weren't. Sounds to me like you might have stopped wearing your Seahawk gear and are just assuming others did as well. in any case, it is kind of a silly thing to claim.
 
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HawkStrong

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So did you do a poll or something with all Seahawk fans in the Seattle area and ask them if they were wearing their Seahawk gear??????

I live in an area where the Seahawks are fairly popular and I did not notice any decrease. Maybe there was or maybe they weren't. Sounds to me like you might have stopped wearing your Seahawk gear and are just assuming others did as well. in any case, it is kind of a silly thing to claim.

Yeah what a crazy statement. Twisted just must hang around when a bunch of fairweather fans, because all of the Seahawks fans I know have never (and will never) stopped repping.
 

Maelstrom787

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Yeah what a crazy statement. Twisted just must hang around when a bunch of fairweather fans, because all of the Seahawks fans I know have never (and will never) stopped repping.
It's cooler to rep in the bad times than it is to rep when it's watered down by bandwagoneers.
 

TwistedHusky

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I kinda did Nunya.

I was counting people wearing Seahawk gear.
That was in Bothell, Kenmore, Downtown Seattle, Downtown Bellevue, Redmond, Part of Sammamish, and Olympia.

In the 2 weeks before the season started? 4 total (maybe 6 if you count 2 that might have been wearing but I couldn't tell if it was just Seahawk colors or gear.)

I used to see more than 4 in one line at Costco and one would be the checker. Let's not pretend there were no flash sales of Seahawk gear all over before the season started either. It wasn't a lack of availability.

Funny thing, 1 week before the season - I saw more people wearing Hawk gear and even got a few Go Hawks from people living in BC when I was there than down here.
Yes, usually when I went into a building, store, park, etc., I was the only person I could see wearing Hawk gear. I was looking too.

If you are being honest with yourself, you had to have seen a lot less of it - because it was EVERYWHERE the year before and you could barely find it at the start of this season.
 
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HawkStrong

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I kinda did Nunya.

I was counting people wearing Seahawk gear.
That was in Bothell, Kenmore, Downtown Seattle, Downtown Bellevue, Redmond, Part of Sammamish, and Olympia.

In the 2 weeks before the season started? 4 total (maybe 6 if you count 2 that might have been wearing but I couldn't tell if it was just Seahawk colors or gear.)

I used to see more than 4 in one line at Costco and one would be the checker. Let's not pretend there were no flash sales of Seahawk gear all over before the season started either. It wasn't a lack of availability.

Funny thing, 1 week before the season - I saw more people wearing Hawk gear and even got a few Go Hawks from people living in BC when I was there than down here.
Yes, usually when I went into a building, store, park, etc., I was the only person I could see wearing Hawk gear. I was looking too.

If you are being honest with yourself, you had to have seen a lot less of it - because it was EVERYWHERE the year before and you could barely find it at the start of this season.

Oh, so your anecdotal evidence of an extremely small sample size = everyone else's reality. Gotcha.
 

CallMeADawg

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I had 'em at 5 wins (so did Vegas), pessimists had 'em at 3 wins, most were lukewarm predicting 6-7 wins. The forever koolaid drinking, unrealistically optimistic, believers had 'em at 9-11 wins.

This is a 12 win team. Please, raise your hand and take a bow if you had them at 12 wins.

The Seahawks under the great Shane Waldron feature the #1 scoring offense in the NFC. That is with the offense being held back at times early in the season by an overly conservative head coach, due to starting 2 Rookie OTs, and Against AZ, Pete shutdown the offense - playing Pete Ball for the majority of the game. But not against the Chargers, he unleashed MVP candidate Geno Smith even after DK left the game with an injury. They kept their foot on the gas as Geno unfurled an up the sideline go ball to his main squeeze, Marquise Goodwin.

On defense they were historically bad, but all they needed to do was get the defense to an average level and they could win the division in a down year with their amazing offense. Welp... they trash canned the defense they started the year with, and have played at a well above average level the last 2 games, going back to a defense that better fits their personnel.

It's cool to see, they've fixed the things that they needed to fix that were obvious.
Ultimately, I can't get fully on board though. Pete is going to squander it. I've seen him under perform too many times and do less with more throughout the years. This is a team with the right coach that should make the Super Bowl in a down NFC, NFCCG minimum. However, Pete will find a way to lose in the WC or Division round. It is his shtick at this point.

Pete must make the NFCCG. There is no excuse why he can't. Who is good in the NFC? The Buccs, Rams, 49ers, & Packers were supposed to be the contenders in the conference. They stink. The Eagles are good, that's it, good. The Cowboys are legit on defense, but Dak and their O leave a lot to be desired. The Vikings? Ha-ha, Kirk Cousins... Ha-ha-ha! The Giants have only 1 loss on the year, but they are going to get destroyed by the Seahawks next week.

If Pete is half as good as people on here claim he is, there is no reason for him not to make the NFCCG.
What teams in the NFC is Seattle incapable of beating?

The narcissism in this post is over the top and is likely the root cause of the issue here. Get some help. This is well beyond just having some beef with a football coach.
 

Nunya

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I kinda did Nunya.

I was counting people wearing Seahawk gear.
That was in Bothell, Kenmore, Downtown Seattle, Downtown Bellevue, Redmond, Part of Sammamish, and Olympia.

In the 2 weeks before the season started? 4 total (maybe 6 if you count 2 that might have been wearing but I couldn't tell if it was just Seahawk colors or gear.)

I used to see more than 4 in one line at Costco and one would be the checker. Let's not pretend there were no flash sales of Seahawk gear all over before the season started either. It wasn't a lack of availability.

Funny thing, 1 week before the season - I saw more people wearing Hawk gear and even got a few Go Hawks from people living in BC when I was there than down here.
Yes, usually when I went into a building, store, park, etc., I was the only person I could see wearing Hawk gear. I was looking too.

If you are being honest with yourself, you had to have seen a lot less of it - because it was EVERYWHERE the year before and you could barely find it at the start of this season.
That has got to be one of the most ridiculous posts I have read today....and I've read a lot of posts. Who in their right mind counts the number of people wearing Seahawk gear and compares it to the number they saw last year? Confirmation bias much? Also, I've see plenty of sales for Seahawks gear. The are all over the place here in Oregon. Heck, all I got to do is google "Seahawks" and my browser will be full of sales for Seahawk gear.
 

BASF

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To be fair to Twisted in this portion of the conversation, there are probably a large number of Seahawks fans that only had a Wilson jersey and intend to never put it on again. I certainly will never wear mine again. I am lucky to have more than twenty others that I can wear. In these hard economic times, they may not be able to buy another jersey to rep.
 
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