Warning to Season Ticket Holders

[IndyHawk]

Anything can be sold with stipulations.

It’s a matter of a simple contract.
All they have to do is write up the agreement/contract and apply the stipulations at renewal time.

Renew or don’t if you aren’t willing to agree.

I’m not defending the process, only stating that if done correctly it would be perfectly legal.

IIRC, Ferrari is an example.
They have a significant list of things you can/can not do with the half million dollar car you “own”.

What???? I buy a car and it has rules?

 

[pmedic920]

What???? I buy a car and it has rules?

Yep

Not to derail the thread, it just an example of selling something to someone with “stipulations”.

You either agree to the contract or you don’t make the purchase.

Completely legal.

https://www.autoevolution.com/news/the-strict-rules-of-ferrari-ownership-you-dont-choose-ferrari-chooses-you-141173.html

 

[BocciHawk]

They should just increase the cost of season tickets to the point where there is little to no profit in reselling them

IMHO we're already there. Tickets have gone up substantially every year for the last five years, and the product on the field hasn't improved in a similar fashion.

My season ticket bill -- eight seats, shared with friends and family -- was nearly $20k this year.

On three occasions last season, I had a couple of extra tickets, and was unable to get face value from anyone for them, and ended up taking friends of friends and eating the cost.

It's not the slam dunk everyone thinks it is -- not everyone is excited to pay $200 or $300 to watch the Cardinals LOL -- there is a row of seats in front of mine where they are clearly owned by a reseller -- those seats were full with opposing fans for the marquee games, and completely empty for games against lesser teams. It's possible they ended up ahead, but it wouldn't surprise me if they lost money, given the cost for the seats and how many of them went empty.

I like the idea of giving season ticket holders additional incentives -- like the Buccaneers who are chalking up a $50 credit for every game that the STH attends, but the credit can only be redeemed at the last home game by the STH. Basically it's a free jacket or jersey if you go to all the games, plus a food and drink fiesta.

With mobile tickets, it would be trivial to have folks use the app to register mobile devices which routinely go to games, and broaden this kind of program so other folks could participate too... i.e. imagine if you got $50 credit for each game you attended, but you could only cash in the credit once per season, and only after amassing a minimum of $200 in credit. This would absolutely advantage the local fan who attends games -- regardless if they had season tickets, or not, you'd just track it on a per mobile device / per app / per Seahawks ticket account, which you have to have to claim your mobile tickets. It would have a very real effect on getting the same fans to show up game after game, regardless if they were season ticket holders or not.

Anyhow, just a few ideas, there are clearly ways to encourage a constant rabid fan base in the building.

Making tickets more expensive just puts more opposing fans in the stadium. They are flying here, paying for hotel, and don't even remotely think twice about paying $800 for a good seat.

I miss the blue collar crowd -- the more expensive the tickets are, the less energy the building has.

 

[DTiempo81]

I miss the blue collar crowd -- the more expensive the tickets are, the less energy the building has.

Not just the tickets. Food, parking, gear, all of it. Couple that with 70" HDTV in people's homes, RedZone, Sunday Ticket, the average person can get a much better experience at home for a fraction of the cost. I personally love going to the games, but it shouldn't be overlooked that the whole package is just underwhelming to the average fan nowadays.

 

[ZagHawk]

Not just the tickets. Food, parking, gear, all of it. Couple that with 70" HDTV in people's homes, RedZone, Sunday Ticket, the average person can get a much better experience at home for a fraction of the cost. I personally love going to the games, but it shouldn't be overlooked that the whole package is just underwhelming to the average fan nowadays.

This. 2 tickets gonna run at least $350 for any regular season game. Minimum $40 for parking or maybe $15 at best for public transit for two round trip. Food and concessions pre/during/post game can run another $100 minimum. We're talking almost $500 at a bare minimum for a Seahawk regular season game day for 2. Now let's try to justify to non bleeding blue and green significant other...can we spend $500, to sit in the bleeds, park 2 miles away, drink 2 beers and eat only hot dogs before/after the game. Or spend that $500 on something else. I think I saw 70 LCD TVs at Costco for like $400-500 now?!? or perhaps that new shed she's been watching for the back yard? Or heck even the airfare to fly somewhere in the US.

Let's face it, the Seahawks/Seattle has priced out anyone not making 200k+ household income (or equivalent such as making less, but your mortgage payment is 70% of what people are paying for rent for a 1 bed room apartment these days).

When I think about it, events in general have just gotten ridiculous. Concerts are probably even worse. $800 for two garbage seats, or you already got a good chunk of your next weekend vacation paid off with that instead.

 

[Runscott]

Let's face it, the Seahawks/Seattle has priced out anyone not making 200k+ household income (or equivalent such as making less, but your mortgage payment is 70% of what people are paying for rent for a 1 bed room apartment these days).

There are plenty of ways for people with lower incomes to get creative and take part in activities that the more wealthy wouldn't have expected, and others in your social strata would think stupid.

But yeah, the average Joe can't come close to affording NFL season tickets, if they are managing their finances wisely.

 

[DTiempo81]

I've had it confirmed by my ticket rep that transferred or donated tickets will not be marked against season ticket holders. Only tickets that are resold on secondary markets.

 

[RiverDog]

Anything can be sold with stipulations.

It’s a matter of a simple contract.
All they have to do is write up the agreement/contract and apply the stipulations at renewal time.

Renew or don’t if you aren’t willing to agree.

I’m not defending the process, only stating that if done correctly it would be perfectly legal.

IIRC, Ferrari is an example.
They have a significant list of things you can/can not do with the half million dollar car you “own”.

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think a Ferrari is a good example as they have a product image and a reputation they want to protect that has a monetary value to it. Things like replacing their logo with a cartoon character or a crazy paint job could result in a tarnished reputation that could hurt their sales. I can't see how that's analogous with re-selling season tickets.

I think a better example would be my buying a box of apples then sitting on the tailgate of my pickup and selling them one at a time and make money on the endeavor. Does the store have the right to tell me what I can do with the box of apples I bought?

 

[Trackhawk]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think a Ferrari is a good example as they have a product image and a reputation they want to protect that has a monetary value to it. Things like replacing their logo with a cartoon character or a crazy paint job could result in a tarnished reputation that could hurt their sales. I can't see how that's analogous with re-selling season tickets.

I think a better example would be my buying a box of apples then sitting on the tailgate of my pickup and selling them one at a time and make money on the endeavor. Does the store have the right to tell me what I can do with the box of apples I bought?

No, but they can certainly refuse to sell you another box of apples.

 

[RiverDog]

No, but they can certainly refuse to sell you another box of apples.

Yes, but is that because apples are a virtually unlimited commodity where there are lots of them being sold so you can go somewhere else to buy them?

This issue has likely never been tested in court as it's not something that has been commonly done or if it has, hasn't been challenged. At the very least, I would think that the team would have to articulate exactly what their standards are, like re-selling 50% of their tickets in 2 years, and give a logical reason as to why they don't want you re-selling them, and I don't think that selling them to a Packer's fan would qualify as a logical reason. IMO this is a paper lion, a threat to scare STH's into not selling their tickets.

 

[pmedic920]

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but I don't think a Ferrari is a good example as they have a product image and a reputation they want to protect that has a monetary value to it. Things like replacing their logo with a cartoon character or a crazy paint job could result in a tarnished reputation that could hurt their sales. I can't see how that's analogous with re-selling season tickets.

I think a better example would be my buying a box of apples then sitting on the tailgate of my pickup and selling them one at a time and make money on the endeavor. Does the store have the right to tell me what I can do with the box of apples I bought?

My only point was, things can be sold with stipulations and it’s the contract that matters.

If the NFL doesn’t want tickets being sold /transferred all they have to do is make it part of the agreement/contract.

Agree to terms or don’t, choice is on the buyer.

 

[RiverDog]

My only point was, things can be sold with stipulations and it’s the contract that matters.

If the NFL doesn’t want tickets being sold /transferred all they have to do is make it part of the agreement/contract.

Agree to terms or don’t, choice is on the buyer.

But IMO the terms have to offer a legitimate reason for refusing to do business with a potential customer. For example, an upscale restaurant can establish a dress code because they have a reputation they want to enhance. Same with a retirement village not renting an apartment to anyone under 50 years old. You can choose your business partners so long as you have a rational reason in doing so.

As a footnote, I'm not trying to be argumentative with you guys, and I'm not convinced that my opinion is correct or that other opinions are wrong.

 

[Trackhawk]

Yes, but is that because apples are a virtually unlimited commodity where there are lots of them being sold so you can go somewhere else to buy them?

Nothing to do with whether the commodity is obtainable elsewhere. A business can refuse to do further business with any customer at its discretion (assuming discrimination against a protected class is not the reason for the refusal).

If you had a contract with the store, for buying apples from them every week, that would establish an expectancy interest. Then, they would need grounds for termination if the contract with you. Typically, legitimate grounds would be established within the terms and conditions of the contract.

 

[Trackhawk]

This issue has likely never been tested in court as it's not something that has been commonly done or if it has, hasn't been challenged. At the very least, I would think that the team would have to articulate exactly what their standards are, like re-selling 50% of their tickets in 2 years, and give a logical reason as to why they don't want you re-selling them, and I don't think that selling them to a Packer's fan would qualify as a logical reason. IMO this is a paper lion, a threat to scare STH's into not selling their tickets.

It has been heavily litigated, at both the collegiate level, as well as by multiple professional leagues.

If this went to court, the court would look at the terms and conditions of the contract, to determine if there is an expectancy interest established therein, or simply a contractual interest.

Generally, the courts have held that season tickets are a revocable license, that creates no property interest for the holder. Thus, the team can refuse renewal at their discretion, as access to future tickets is a privilege granted by the team, not a right held by the STH. (The courts have some split of opinion in situations where season tickets are automatically renewed, without the fan having to manually agree to the renewal)

There is clearly a difference between general season tickets holders, and holders of PSLs. PSL holders have unique rights. We saw this in the move of the Rams from St Louis to LA. St Louis PSL holders successfully sued, when The Rams refused to honor the expectancy interest the PSL holders had, in getting tickets at the new stadium.

Unless the Seahawks lawyers have been asleep at the wheel, they should be requiring STHs to sign an updated terms and conditions, with each and every renewal. Those terms and conditions wouldn’t need to spell out specific behaviors that will lead to non-renewal. They simply need clauses to the effect that the purchaser is buying a revocable license for the seats, and that revocation is at the Seahawks sole discretion. Couch it in palatable language for the STH, so you can get them to sign it every year, and you can yank their renewal at any time.

 

[ZagHawk]

There are plenty of ways for people with lower incomes to get creative and take part in activities that the more wealthy wouldn't have expected, and others in your social strata would think stupid.

But yeah, the average Joe can't come close to affording NFL season tickets, if they are managing their finances wisely.

And this is kind of what I meant by pricing out, pricing out people who are managing their finances wisely. I mean you could buy a ferrari on a 50k salary if you wanted to, but the folks it's not a large group of people who prioritize a voluntary expense that hard....especially when the product on the field for the Seahawks in general was declining while the cost went up. So the value dropped. I think we're seeing the same issues with a lot of things right now, businesses that seemed infallible are all starting to suffer a bit because they kept raising prices while their product itself perhaps even went down. Restaurants, Disneyland, Vegas.

 

[Runscott]

And this is kind of what I meant by pricing out, pricing out people who are managing their finances wisely. I mean you could buy a ferrari on a 50k salary if you wanted to, but the folks it's not a large group of people who prioritize a voluntary expense that hard....especially when the product on the field for the Seahawks in general was declining while the cost went up. So the value dropped. I think we're seeing the same issues with a lot of things right now, businesses that seemed infallible are all starting to suffer a bit because they kept raising prices while their product itself perhaps even went down. Restaurants, Disneyland, Vegas.

If you looked at the actual spending of everyone you know, there would almost certainly be a few purchase areas that had you raising your eyebrows, even if they balanced their budgets perfectly. We all have some weird priorities. I honestly can't justify my season tickets to anyone with financial sense, but the things I'm foregoing just aren't as important to me as this luxury, and my whacko budget does balance. To me, buying a new vehicle for $40K is sheer craziness, yet people do it regardless of their income, and just 'make it work'. Compared to that, $2,500 annually for these tickets actually seems okay. But yeah...it's too much. Notice how I always agree with you in my last sentence?

 

[Give_it_to_24]

This may or may not go well, but I’d like to offer my entire season to someone who can go to every game. I’m on my 4th year of owning tickets. Just moved down to new seats, but havent even sat there. Although I know where they are relative to where I was last year.

I’m unable to make most of the games at the start of the season. Im selling both tickets for 2800. Section 311 Row S seats 18 and 19.

Just thought I would throw it out there if anyone is interested, let me know.

 

[Runscott]

This may or may not go well, but I’d like to offer my entire season to someone who can go to every game. I’m on my 4th year of owning tickets. Just moved down to new seats, but havent even sat there. Although I know where they are relative to where I was last year.

I’m unable to make most of the games at the start of the season. Im selling both tickets for 2800. Section 311 Row S seats 18 and 19.

Just thought I would throw it out there if anyone is interested, let me know.

My seats are on the other side of the field, directly across from you. I got them there to be around the home crowd. Didn't happen. The Rams and 49'ers fans sitting all around us were about as obnoxious as it gets. Is your side random fans as well?

 

[Give_it_to_24]

My seats are on the other side of the field, directly across from you. I got them there to be around the home crowd. Didn't happen. The Rams and 49'ers fans sitting all around us were about as obnoxious as it gets. Is your side random fans as well?

Yes, it was bad last year. I had to sell my Bills tix last year on ticket exchange, but the 9ers and GB game was unreal.

I was in 312 row HH last year.

I hoped moving one section over and down helped this as it seemed more home colors were down there

 

[projectorfreak]

Another thing that accelerated the home field advantage decline: remote work. 2021 is where you see a spike in visiting fans. Many people (like me) relocated outside of the Puget Sound area with new found ability to work remotely. We made the decision to cancel our season tickets for a plethora of reasons one of which is we coulda started selling them but didn't want peckerhead visiting fans in our seats.

Case in point: Every frost-tipped divorced dad in Chelan County gloats about having season tickets for which they make a killing selling off. They don't want to drive that 90k Chevy Tahoe over the pass in Nov-Dec-Jan.

The spike in other fans started during the time i had season tix from 2002 when the new seahawks stadium opened and after we started getting good around 04 it began to be noticed
05 and 06 it was really changing to a thing to go to event crowd and less diehard screaming fans like the nfccg
It was so loud you couldn't hear the guy right next to you no matter how loud or hard you tried , ie. Cupping your hands etc.
Those were the days and the 2008 recession got me , also the advent of big screen tvs , the cost rose greatly and tilted it even more to the corporate crowd then the other teams fans re

Only if you sell through Ticketmaster. I only sell through Ticketmaster because I believe that it absolves me of any responsibility for misbehavior by whoever buys my ticket. *

When I sell through other resale sites (StubHub, SeatGeek, Vivid...) the NFL doesn't profit, and I have no protection from whatever mischief the buyer gets into.


*Not legal advice, Just my interpretation of the various contracts involved.

The last 2 years I have bought 8 tickets from Ticketmaster and have had to replace my debit card both times as their system is flawed and they are subject to hackers and all other kinds of malicious interests
Eff tixmassa