Too Little Too Late? Perhaps, But...

[DarkVictory23]

This year was hard, but if in the end it was what was necessary for Pete and Russ to get back on the same page, allowed our D to mature and grow confidence among the young guys, and established our run first identity again that maybe foregoes MVP talk in favor of Lombardi possibilities, then it will have been worth it. And shoot, if we start next year clicking in the run game the way we did this year, and Russ can be his normal efficient self and feast off of play action, I completely belive Waldron has enough X and O factor in his playbook to elevate the entire offense and maybe get Russ his MVP regardless.

Are Pete and Russ on the same page?

Why do I and so many others think we're all going to start hearing the Russell wants out rumors again.

I hope you're right, because IMO that's the true dysfunction of this team. But I need an entire off season of hearing nothing but Russell's happy and wants to play here for another 10 years to believe it......and not the nonsense we heard last off season and even over the past couple of months.

I don't know if Pete and Russ are on the same page again, but I do think we have some reasons for optimism vs. last season.

First, and foremost, all the 'Russ for MVP' stuff that I think clearly inflated Russ's already innate view of himself as the driver of our offense was not at all a thing this year. Instead, Russ probably saw and heard more criticism of his game than he probably has in a decade. Now, personally, I had some doubts about where this would put Russ headspace wise and, frankly, I think some of the negative I expected from that materialized in how he came back way too soon and frankly stunk up the joint for most of his first few games back.

The last three games, though, even though they haven't been without some of the staple Russ liabilities (forced INTs, ridiculous sacks, etc.), I think we've seen a guy who has been trying to get back into the rhythm with his offense.

On top of that, the results, especially these last two games, have had to feel better to Russ than what he was getting previous. I mean, it was clear, he was enjoying how this and the last game were going. And I mean, who was the man for these last two games, really? I mean, it was Penny, but in that, Russ looked great 95% of the time despite Penny being the guy putting up the gaudiest numbers.

This IS the type of offense Russ is best at. And I don't mean just 'he's best suited to being the QB of a run-heavy offense', I mean he's also probably the best at it. I think Russ's unique talents mean he can do more in this type of offense than even a Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers.

Is that guaranteed to get him that MVP vote he's never gotten? No, but I think (hope?) Russ has seen that he's not got going to get that vote trying to squeeze himself into the role of a Tom Brady when he's not that guy and by sticking to THIS scheme, he's far more likely to win games, MVP votes be damned.


Then again, 4 weeks from now the internet might be flooded with articles seeded by Russ's team again and I'll feel stupid for being hopeful...

 

[scutterhawk]

My pessimism isn't with Pete particularly, it's his dysfunctional relationship with Russell and how that stagnates and causes unnecessary stretches of seasons and playoff games of the offense not playing well, when with the talent we have? shouldn't happen.

Can Russell ever get to the self realization point in his career when he realizes that Pete IS using him correctly, and not think the offense needs to go through him?

That's the rub for me. It's not Pete particularly. I do think he can still win a SB. Just not with Russell if Russell's gonna Russell again this off season.

Which I think he will.

Actually, with the run game "Talent" we had PRIOR to Penny's break out performances, was pretty minimal.
It likely became obvious to Wilson, that everything opened up in the passing game A BUNCH after AP came on board too.

 

[DarkVictory23]

My pessimism isn't with Pete particularly, it's his dysfunctional relationship with Russell and how that stagnates and causes unnecessary stretches of seasons and playoff games of the offense not playing well, when with the talent we have? shouldn't happen.

Can Russell ever get to the self realization point in his career when he realizes that Pete IS using him correctly, and not think the offense needs to go through him?

That's the rub for me. It's not Pete particularly. I do think he can still win a SB. Just not with Russell if Russell's gonna Russell again this off season.

Which I think he will.

Actually, with the run game "Talent" we had PRIOR to Penny's break out performances, was pretty minimal.
It likely became obvious to Wilson, that everything opened up in the passing game A BUNCH after AP came on board too.

But, even with the 'minimal' talent, when we were consistent in letting those guys run, we still did better. We weren't exactly bottom of the barrel in YPC before Penny shot off like a rocket.

If Russ felt like he needed to take over every game with his arm because he was personally dismissive of our RB talent, that's not good.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

It'd be awesome to get Russ and Pete in the same room and discuss philosophy, because IMO that's really the crux of this conversation.

On one hand you have a defensive minded coach that believes you win by playing good sound defense, great special teams, protecting the ball and running to open up play action/explosive plays.

On the other hand you have a QB that hates being conservative, especially when the run game isn't working. He wants his gloves taken off so he can rip it around the yard, and probably feels constrained in an offensive scheme too often for his liking.

So can this coach and QB ever get on the same page to truly reach the pinnacle of offensive potential? I don't think so, thus why I'd like Pete gone and a new coach and coordinator to see if they can maximize this offensive's production.

 

[Double Tribble]

I think it also bears repeating that it is certainly no coincidence that our record improved dramatically when AP came on board. They need to do everything they can to make sure he stays with the team, perhaps as a player/coach, and then eventually as a coach. Winners breed winning, and AP is a winner.

 

[hox]

At one point this season, I was in the blow it all up camp, but am now starting to be more amenable to running it back for another year, based on some recent developments.

 

[DarkVictory23]

It'd be awesome to get Russ and Pete in the same room and discuss philosophy, because IMO that's really the crux of this conversation.

On one hand you have a defensive minded coach that believes you win by playing good sound defense, great special teams, protecting the ball and running to open up play action/explosive plays.

On the other hand you have a QB that hates being conservative, especially when the run game isn't working. He wants his gloves taken off so he can rip it around the yard, and probably feels constrained in an offensive scheme too often for his liking.

So can this coach and QB ever get on the same page to truly reach the pinnacle of offensive potential? I don't think so, thus why I'd like Pete gone and a new coach and coordinator to see if they can maximize this offensive's production.

I think part of the problem is that as a coach, Pete has become ridiculously deferential to Russ. The idea that Pete is trying to 'handcuff' Russ and that's what's holding his game back has become some sort of sacrament of ideology to some on this board even though that's clearly not true.

I am not the biggest Pete Carroll fan in the world (I basically have never liked him from just about day one, to be honest), but I try to maintain some understanding of the good and bad the guy brings to our organization.

And one of the 'bads' is not that he tries to handicap Russ--it's that he basically will not put any sort of constraints on Russ. If the words from a lot of the former guys in the org are to be believed, he even goes so far as to shield him from criticism.


So, again, I hope the way this season went can be the driver of a new understanding of what makes for the best offensive philosophy because I'm not sure just a 'meeting of the minds' is enough between those two.

 

[LTH]

This year was hard, but if in the end it was what was necessary for Pete and Russ to get back on the same page, allowed our D to mature and grow confidence among the young guys, and established our run first identity again that maybe foregoes MVP talk in favor of Lombardi possibilities, then it will have been worth it. And shoot, if we start next year clicking in the run game the way we did this year, and Russ can be his normal efficient self and feast off of play action, I completely belive Waldron has enough X and O factor in his playbook to elevate the entire offense and maybe get Russ his MVP regardless.

Are Pete and Russ on the same page?

Why do I and so many others think we're all going to start hearing the Russell wants out rumors again.

I hope you're right, because IMO that's the true dysfunction of this team. But I need an entire off season of hearing nothing but Russell's happy and wants to play here for another 10 years to believe it......and not the nonsense we heard last off season and even over the past couple of months.

I hope so. I'm not saying I think they are, because Russ's tantrum didn't start until after the Superbowl. And I think this year we suffered and lost because Pete took the route of letting Russ continue to tantrum this year instead of more forcefully checking the nonsense and the, selfish, passhappy approach that literally lost us games. If he starts crying again, I say they pull the plug. But given how much we suffered unnecessarily from just misguided play, I'm still optimistic about next season. Can we be as good with someone else under center playing a run first attack as we could with Russ complying and doing it? Probably not. But if he's going to do next year what he did this year and in 2020, we'd be better off going the hard road without him.

I really believe that Russ has an ego thing going on just like every great QB. It's Pete's job to bring that into perspective and guide him into a place where he can overcome that. This is Pete's strength. that's why I never gave up on the relationship.

This was a funky year, Russ got hurt came back to early along with trying to keep things into perspective equals the kind of year they had.... along with other things like the pass rush not coming on early...as well the run game not popping

Interesting to listen to Dunlaps comments in his recent PC about how he had to talk to the Seahawks about how he was being used... I found that to be interesting.

Seahawks over came a lot of adversity especially with injury in the secondary which IMO JS did a nice job of filling the gaps and the coaching staff did a really nice job of coaching those DB's up.

LTH

 

[scutterhawk]

My pessimism isn't with Pete particularly, it's his dysfunctional relationship with Russell and how that stagnates and causes unnecessary stretches of seasons and playoff games of the offense not playing well, when with the talent we have? shouldn't happen.

Can Russell ever get to the self realization point in his career when he realizes that Pete IS using him correctly, and not think the offense needs to go through him?

That's the rub for me. It's not Pete particularly. I do think he can still win a SB. Just not with Russell if Russell's gonna Russell again this off season.

Which I think he will.

Actually, with the run game "Talent" we had PRIOR to Penny's break out performances, was pretty minimal.
It likely became obvious to Wilson, that everything opened up in the passing game A BUNCH after AP came on board too.

But, even with the 'minimal' talent, when we were consistent in letting those guys run, we still did better. We weren't exactly bottom of the barrel in YPC before Penny shot off like a rocket.

If Russ felt like he needed to take over every game with his arm because he was personally dismissive of our RB talent, that's not good.

I don't disagree^^, my point was, with the way Penny took over, Russ HAD to see for himself, that there's more winning when you are multi-faceted.
The last two games were kind of a wake up, eh?

 

[DarkVictory23]

I don't disagree^^, my point was, with the way Penny took over, Russ HAD to see for himself, that there's more winning when you are multi-faceted.
The last two games were kind of a wake up, eh?

Ok, got ya. Yeah, I hope it was a wakeup. I mean, the dude looked like he was having fun out there and, frankly, looked better than he has for a long time.

 

[sutz]

Not surprising that the ultimate "nice win, but" post would come from you, Todd. :laugh:

But it is a fitting way to look at things. Lots of bandwagoners around and lots of "blow it all up" fans, too. Like the age old saying goes, it's never as bad or as good as it looks. :mrgreen:

TBH, I am not in the blow it up crowd, way too drastic of a reaction to a year with a lot of things happening that stood in the way of Seahawks success. In many ways it was a perfect storm of injuries to key players, questionable and flat out bad refereeing, and just sheer crappy luck. For me, the question becomes, "Is this some kind of nadir of a team that has been on the downswing for several years, or is it a good team that met with obstacles too great to overcome?" Frankly, I think it more the latter than the former. Obviously others disagree. Whatever.

I'm a glass half full kind of a guy anyway, so I choose to look at the successes of the young guys who are coming into their own and seeing their talents and experience meld into emerging greatness. Certainly Brooks falls into this category, we have seemingly several young corners on the verge of near greatness, and the O-line at the end of the season hasn't looked that strong in 5 or more seasons. I see things that can be built on. There are more than the few examples I listed that will take more time than I have now to point out. The thing is that I don't see this team as some shredded group that is teetering on the verge of 3-5 win seasons in the forseeable future, at least not unless we "blow it all up" somehow based more on personalities than on actual talent evaluations.

But that's just me. One "good" thing about the situation is the extra weeks of recovery time the injured players will have to come back next year and recapture our winning ways. :179422:

 

[pittpnthrs]

Interesting to listen to Dunlaps comments in his recent PC about how he had to talk to the Seahawks about how he was being used... I found that to be interesting.

LTH

You mean to tell me the coaches were using him wrong? Thats crazy talk.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

No way. Seahawks coaches not using a guy correctly? And waiting for several games to actually adjust? And then telling everyone what you SHOULD have done? All while acting like everything is just fine?
That's just crazy talk............

 

[olyfan63]

-snip-
I think that was the most unfortunate thing about the season - the infighting and seeming rebellious play from the QB position.
-snip-

Glad to know it's not just me that felt there was a big want-to issue with Russell for Waldron's offense, that Russell didn't fully buy in until final few games of the season. "Give me hero-ball or give me death! Well, OK, or *sack*. That death thing sounds a little harsh."

I'm curious on your take on why Russell was able to do so well on 3rd and long vs. the Cardinals. No real run threat, so Cards probably playing cover 2, Russell's kryptonite, yet he converted at least 3 of them that I can recall. Was it a) Russell consciously doing something different (my guess) or b) Did the Cards "Bevell it" and abandon what was working against Russell for an approach of "they'll never see this coming"?

 

[Own The West]

As frustrating as this season was, I also saw it as a breakthrough of sorts.

On defense, nobody talked about the legion of boom this year. The defense is finally looking within to be great, instead of measuring themselves against the past.

And on offense, Russell got a taste of humility which I think he's needed since the Superbowl loss. Seeing Geno Smith post an 103 passer rating in this offense might have been the wakeup call he needed. We definitely saw a better offense when Russ threw less than 30x a game.

If the last two games are an indicator of what's to come, I'm excited for next year. We have a ton of cap to turn some weaknesses into strengths. And assuming the defense can start next season like they ended this season (exactly what I said last year :roll: ), we should be in the hunt for the division title again.

 

[LTH]

Interesting to listen to Dunlaps comments in his recent PC about how he had to talk to the Seahawks about how he was being used... I found that to be interesting.

LTH

You mean to tell me the coaches were using him wrong? Thats crazy talk.

He didn't go into enough detail. but whatever the case if they were not using him effectively or if they just decided to move him around, whatever they did was effective.


LTH

 

[AubHawk71]

if Russ hadn't busted up his finger, we probably would've squeaked into the playoffs again this year as a wildcard -- which BTW would have meant 4 NFCW teams in the playoffs, which is just redonk. After that, probably would've been one and done. Again. Injury to QB + badass division = 10 losses.

Penny coming on finally is exactly what the team needs to stand pat and see if they can't make it happen again next year. PC just can't get to the SB without a bad boy RB like that. Carson, most likely, is probably done with the neck injury. The risk of paralysis just ain't worth it.

Diggs' terrible injury frees up a lot of money, which helps make paying Penny easier. Sux, but it is a business.

The last month of RW back to speed (tho he still needs to admit his pocket Houdini magic is declining), and if Penny can stay healthy, is worth a net positive win/loss, regardless of mediocre O-line, hot/cold defense, and hopefully Meyers trending back to hot after being arguably the worst kicker (and game coster) in the league this year who played every game. Expect some competition in the off-season on that. Special teams otherwise is baller tho.

I've never been fond of PC, and as of late watching the games feels like work/a chore just because it's such a slog without a Beast or healthy RB to compliment Pete's never-gonna-change style. I'm not sure that he and RW butting heads is a bad thing - there are a lot of fire and ice relationships that can work. And probably one of the reasons the defense is so hot and cold is because the only way it works if the offense can stay on the field more, which requires someone like Penny to plow like a mad cow.

I'd be very surprised to see any major changes this off-season, rather bolstering weak positions. I like Sidney Jones, he seems to be in the right place at the right time a lot, but we need at least a B+ other corner back to balance out the secondary. The safety situation, however, is a big question mark.


See y'all next year!

 

[Mizak]

Interesting to listen to Dunlaps comments in his recent PC about how he had to talk to the Seahawks about how he was being used... I found that to be interesting.

LTH

You mean to tell me the coaches were using him wrong? Thats crazy talk.

He didn't go into enough detail. but whatever the case if they were not using him effectively or if they just decided to move him around, whatever they did was effective.


LTH

Sounds like Pete Carroll’s fault.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

Actually think if this team made the playoffs they would win a game or two. They just suck vs the Rams. They own the Niners.

 

[RiverDog]

Nothing's changed for me.

If Russell can stay healthy the Hawks can scratch and claw for wildcard spots with 2nd and 3rd place finishes in our own division.

If he can't stay healthy, more 7-10's and no playoff seasons.

So if fans are OK with this formula going forward, keep everyone together. I love Pete, I wish we could bottle his enthusiasm and formula's for culture and organization. But IMO if we want to set our sights higher to try to get back to more SB's? Pete isn't going to deliver that anymore.

That's where I stand, too.

The difference between 7-10 and missing the playoffs to 10-7 and being one and done in the playoffs is likely Russell's injury. That's the same result we've been treated to since the end of the 2015 season.

Yes, the Lions and Jets would love to be in our position, and there is a risk that if we start over by firing Pete and hiring a new HC that we backslide and become the west coast version of those hapless franchises. I fully understand and accept that risk. I want more than just a succession of mediocre teams and fully realize that if you want to be great, that you have to be willing to take risks.

As far as holding my head high, last Sunday's win didn't do anything for me with regard to my pride. No one else outside of our fanbase gives a crap about a 7-10 team knocking off a team that had gone 4-6 in the last part of their season and losing big to such juggernauts as the Lions and Panthers. We beat a team that hasn't played consistently well for two months.