To all of the "Pete Ball" defenders

[SoulfishHawk]

They talked about it on the broadcast. They dared the Hawks to throw the ball. Please keep telling yourself that you can beat the Hawks by just taking away their running game. Good luck with that...….

 

[Own The West]

This was a good win to be sure, but I would expect "Pete Ball" to be back with a vengeance this week as the Pats have a solid secondary and a suspect front 7.

I'm not even sure what people think "Pete Ball" is. I couldn't stand our Offense under Bevell with all it's misdirection and sideline to sideline running. We were a finesse team and it was both ugly and embarrassing to watch.

I am really looking forward to 2-TE sets with Carson and Hyde pounding it between the tackles this week. Russ will get his shots, but I want more Knox and less Patera!

 

[TwistedHusky]

Chapow,

4+ pt lead means more than a FG, usually a TD. Sometimes it means someone missed an extra point.

But slight lead is 3 or less. That means either a FG or worse, near tied with the other team missing an extra point.

And yes, any strategy that involves regular season games with Russell effing Wilson throwing for 50 total yards at the half is 'stupid football that need to die' even if you win. Because it does not help you in the playoffs and is ugly, awful football to watch.

Repeatedly punting and grinding the clock down might be strategic but it is boring. And it does not work against the good teams in the playoffs. As we have repeatedly learned.

Here is what it gets you, near every year:

- Season start...Seahawks are a popular Dark Horse SB candidate
- They go on a tear at the 3/4 mark where you think they might go to the SB
- Lose 1 or 2 must win games late to they needed to win the division (late in the season)
- Go to wildcard game and win
- Go to playoff game, down by multiple TDs at the half because you aren't used to playing real offense for 4 full quarters

Basically it works well in the regular season. Beats wildcard opponents but gets shelled by division opponents. It has never worked otherwise after 2014. In the playoffs it only works against weaker teams.

Usually we have a slow start, which we at least seem to have addressed. Hoping it is more us changing than the Falcons just starting their usual poor season start.

 

[HawkRiderFan]

I was never really that critical of Pete's style but the game where it came to a head for me and I was livid after was the Wild Card loss in Dallas. That was a game where the "run twice and hope Russ can work magic on third down" narrative truly fit. The one thing that was working that day was Russ throwing on early downs from play action but it was hardly used. That's the one game I recall being really frustrating to watch.

 

[Fade]

This offense is here to stay, otherwise Wilson's leaving. Get used to it.

 

[RW4LIFE]

Wilson stepping up to take the team to the next level with or without Pete's buy in.

The true Wilson era is now underway and that's a good thing.

He's likely the single sharpest playing football mind in the game today.

Short passes, long ball, scramble, reaction times, etc., he's legit HoF levels right now.

In Wilson we trust.

 

[sutz]

People are forgetting a key element of "Pete Ball" over the years.

Pete's strategy comes from a philosophy of 'take an early lead and hold tenaciously to it.' Our record over his tenure when we take a 4 pt lead by halftime is stellar. Frankly, against Atl, we could have run the ball a little more in the 2d half, but Russ was completing so many passes, it didn't matter. The reason you throw less in the second half with a lead is more about the clock than stats. An incompletion stops the clock. Even an unsuccessful run doesn't do that unless there's a penalty.

 

[Fade]

But more importantly it is about throwing your best punch and letting the chips fall where they may. Instead of holding back and wondering if they could've won the game had Wilson been more featured.

So you think we were largely unsuccessful the past few years because we did not win it all?

That is what you gleaned from that?

I am a process guy, not a results guy.


Their process was flawed in seasons past, and left a lot of meat on the bone.

 

[Fade]

Carroll will use whatever offense will work for each individual opponent this season . There will plenty of games when run 1st is the offense again .

I think your missing it totally... It's not about just one thing...It's about matchups and having the tools to attack a team in multiple different ways according to what matchups the Hawks favor... This is a multi talented diverse offense that can beat you at running and passing... no this is about matching up period...

LTH

What team have you guys been watching the previous 10 seasons? Pete rarely adjusts to the opponent. He plays his style and forces the other team to adapt to him. He is the anti-Bill Belichick. He's had Wilson to bail his ass out in the 4th quarter, to tidy up the mess that was created in the 1st half over the years. And the team would win just enough games every year to continue this failed process. Wilson was tired of it. It's over.

In tennis the object is to "hit it where they ain't". In football it's "take what the defense gives you". Get them to commit to stopping the run and there are wide open spaces downfield. If they go heavy in coverage blow them off the line and run that sucker til it doesn't work.
I remember when Walsh Ball (West Coast) was a new thing. I loved it, as ball control passing played to my personal skill set. Going with lighter faster linemen he developed influence blocking schemes and was successful. But he was ahead of his time and competing in a league of defenses built to stop the the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" system.
Regardless how you intend to play the game you have to find a way to win at the line of scrimmage.
Stopping the run may be the Seahawk's biggest weakness this year. I fully expect to see our opponents test that to the fullest.

Which is the main complaint with "Pete Ball." It's the antithesis of this.

 

[Fade]

I was never really that critical of Pete's style but the game where it came to a head for me and I was livid after was the Wild Card loss in Dallas. That was a game where the "run twice and hope Russ can work magic on third down" narrative truly fit. The one thing that was working that day was Russ throwing on early downs from play action but it was hardly used. That's the one game I recall being really frustrating to watch.

Some people on here were defending that garbage, even though Pete admitted it was a mistake shortly there after (they stubbornly stuck with the run for too long.)

 

[Fade]

Can we make this the sequel to your Russel Wilson is Elite thread?

It may turn into that. People love arguing against statistical facts.

 

[Fade]

Oh give over. We run to force teams to simplify their coverage and run man, which Russ is far more comfortable with. The Falcons, who have quite possibly the worst defense we will see all year, stayed in man all game despite getting torched (Russ was 22/23 against man). We had Carson on a strict pitch count and it worked out beautifully. I'll prefer Russ throws 50 times if we get to see man all game.

We know what happens when we don't feature the run. But some choose to forget we've played this game before.

It's not about passing vs. running. But when you're running and when you're passing.

Russell is elite btw.

 

[scutterhawk]

I defend Peteball from time to time, but I'm fully aware it's pretty much solely because of my reverence for Carroll as one of my idols.

For some reason, I respect the fact that he wasn't just winning, he was winning HIS way and that it made victory sweeter.

I admire his conviction and his adherence to philosophy. Letting Russ cook is obviously the better approach, and I hope that he continues with it for the most part, but Carroll has pretty much infinite leeway with me. I'll disagree with his decisions from time to time, but I'll like him anyway because he wins.

I could not have said it any better :irishdrinkers: ...Because he was THE architect that got us our First Lombardi, kind of adds a lot of credibility for me.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Carroll will use whatever offense will work for each individual opponent this season . There will plenty of games when run 1st is the offense again .

I think your missing it totally... It's not about just one thing...It's about matchups and having the tools to attack a team in multiple different ways according to what matchups the Hawks favor... This is a multi talented diverse offense that can beat you at running and passing... no this is about matching up period...

LTH

What team have you guys been watching the previous 10 seasons? Pete rarely adjusts to the opponent. He plays his style and forces the other team to adapt to him. He is the anti-Bill Belichick. He's had Wilson to bail his ass out in the 4th quarter, to tidy up the mess that was created in the 1st half over the years. And the team would win just enough games every year to continue this failed process. Wilson was tired of it. It's over.

In tennis the object is to "hit it where they ain't". In football it's "take what the defense gives you". Get them to commit to stopping the run and there are wide open spaces downfield. If they go heavy in coverage blow them off the line and run that sucker til it doesn't work.
I remember when Walsh Ball (West Coast) was a new thing. I loved it, as ball control passing played to my personal skill set. Going with lighter faster linemen he developed influence blocking schemes and was successful. But he was ahead of his time and competing in a league of defenses built to stop the the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" system.
Regardless how you intend to play the game you have to find a way to win at the line of scrimmage.
Stopping the run may be the Seahawk's biggest weakness this year. I fully expect to see our opponents test that to the fullest.

Which is the main complaint with "Pete Ball." It's the antithesis of this.

Yes on the last bit. Pete Ball is all about establishing the run, and hitting long bombs to make defenses back off. It most definitely is not about taking what you're given. This offensive style is all about limiting the toxic differential, but I believe the sacrifice is too great. It puts huge limitations on the QB and it is a style that is extremely rigid. It allows the Seahawks to punish lesser teams, but it also is punished pretty hard against playoff caliber teams.

What I liked about this style of offense is we ran a lot of WCO concepts. The game called almost looked like a Holmgren style. They tried blitzing and stacking the box and we responded with a game plan that emphasized getting the ball out of Russ's hands quickly. That is something that I see far too little of with a Carroll offense. We also did a good job of executing misdirection plays. Russ was also given a ton of freedom at the LOS, the fact that we haven't been giving Russell Wilson more autonomy until this year really is unforgivable.

 

[Fade]

Pete Ball is all about establishing the run, and hitting long bombs to make defenses back off. It most definitely is not about taking what you're given. This offensive style is all about limiting the toxic differential, but I believe the sacrifice is too great. It puts huge limitations on the QB and it is a style that is extremely rigid. It allows the Seahawks to punish lesser teams, but it also is punished pretty hard against playoff caliber teams.

What I liked about this style of offense is we ran a lot of WCO concepts. The game called almost looked like a Holmgren style. They tried blitzing and stacking the box and we responded with a game plan that emphasized getting the ball out of Russ's hands quickly. That is something that I see far too little of with a Carroll offense. We also did a good job of executing misdirection plays. Russ was also given a ton of freedom at the LOS, the fact that we haven't been giving Russell Wilson more autonomy until this year really is unforgivable.

This.




Adding onto that.

-Play with zero urgency at the start of games. Come out of the huddle late and snap the ball with less than 4 seconds on the play clock. (Supposedly to shorten the game. But makes no sense, unless you're Nostradamus and know you're going to win. You might want that time back, also you're going to be punting an awful lot playing that lethargic.)

-Punt on 4th and short in enemy territory.

-Only run base stuff. The offense doesn't have to think, but neither does the opponent.

-Rope-a-Dope. Ties in with only run base stuff. Don't show anything until you really need it.

This style leads to unexpected losses to sub .500 teams because you often times end up playing down to your opponents with this style. Letting teams hang around is just asking for trouble in the NFL.

And in the playoffs as we've seen over the years you can dig yourself a really big hole in a hurry.

I much prefer what they did on Sunday. As Wilson put it "Play every quarter like it's the 4th quarter."

I agree it was very Holmgren esque on Sunday as well in that, short, high % passes on 1st down. Use the RB in the passing game. (Alexander screwed this one up a little bit. ) Look to run the ball more after you've built the lead, but don't get stupid with it. If they're giving you the pass by selling out to stop the run, take it.

A far cry from when Schottenheimer showed up and the first thing out of his mouth was. "We're going to run the ball even when they know we're running it. We're going to throw it when they know we're going to throw it." AKA "Pete Ball."

The opposite took place on Sunday.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Do you guys put on your clown shoes before you go to, or after you come home from work? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOOLOOLOLLOO LOLOOLO.

The ones who fall in that camp, must condemn this current approach as it is completely antithetical to what they have been arguing season after season, FOR YEARS.

As they told us running into loaded boxes repeatedly was required for Wilson to be effective. Punting in enemy territory was smart football, and throwing on early downs was bad.

No matter how much evidence we presented to the contrary. Clowns decided to die on that hill.

Where is the conviction!? The "Let Russ Cook" proponents never wavered, the "Pete Ball" crowd seemed to have rolled over without a fight… Pathetic. LOL

I was pleasantly surprised not only that we got a lead but widened it through the game. I don't even think that garbage ATL TD was worth taking the foot off the gas. The greater the spread the more dominant the win than wondering every Sunday whether that 20-24 would side against us.

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Major WIN here, 506sports.com is out and it appears the Hawks game is on SNF football so obviously i'll get to watch it and record it on the nice 60" ultraHD as well as all nationwide Hawk fans out of market. I thought for sure that'd have to happen the next week in DAL, because they're DAL.

If anyone cares, y'all get the SF-Jets game earlier in the day. It'll beat Den vs. Pitt which we also all will get on the wc.

 

[Fade]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/PFF_George/status/1305373775874199553[/tweet]
Seattle's EPA/ a play about to be record setting.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/gbellseattle/status/1306341277676400640[/tweet]
He's been doing it for years, Greg, nothing new.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/minakimes/status/1305983267410116608[/tweet]
Mina did good. Summarized a whole lot in under 1 min.

 

[AgentDib]

It's interesting how committed people are to seeing what they want to see in these sort of discussions.

Personally, I didn't find Pete going for that fourth down surprising. I expected it and we've gone for less likely 4th down conversions in the past. It would have been a major departure if we were on the 50, and we'll see if that happens going forwards, but punting from the 36 is unusual for everybody including Pete.

I also didn't find the amount of passing surprising. Russ was statistically the most accurate that he's ever been, against a defense with a strong front seven but a poor secondary, while that defense was playing single high safety often, and he threw a few more times than normal. The results were a lot better than normal due to him hitting almost every throw, but I'm not sure that there is really cause and effect here with the offensive game plan; he just looked really sharp to me.

That being said, if there is a causation between whatever we were doing and his accuracy then we need to keep doing that, as we aren't going to lose ANY games where Russ is hitting 85% of his throws. Maybe there's a confidence component there, but I just don't see the link schematically.

Finally, throwing more to the RBs was one of the main discussions of the previous off-season, and we did so a lot until the pass catchers got hurt. I don't know why people ignore that personnel affects what you can call, but it reminds me of everybody calling for more screen passes when we've thrown plenty over the years to backs like Mike Davis who were good with them. Carson, Penny and Dallas should all be good targets in the passing game this year but that's a personnel thing more than a scheme thing.

Of course, we don't have to wait long to see another data point. The Patriots defense has a strong secondary and Gilmore is a legitimate shut-down corner, whereas they lost some of their DL. On paper, this looks like the sort of game where they'd want to be as close to 50/50 run/pass as possible, so if they were to go 40/60 or something in a close game that would seem more significant than last week.

 

[John63]

So all this might be moot as [urlhttps://www.nfl.com/news/pete-carroll-plans-to-get-seahawks-run-game-going-after-pass-happy-week-1/[/url]


""First time out it went fine,'' Carroll said of the RB usage in Week 1, via the Seattle Times. "Seven and six carries wasn't enough for our guys and we need to get more. We were at 20 (runs). We want to get more than that in general."

So we will see.