Time to call Gresham?

oldhawkfan

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 3, 2011
Messages
4,187
Reaction score
1,608
Location
Spokane
I'm thinking that with the LS position we are looking at a Drew Nowak type of situation. Management and coaches are hoping a rookie long snapper will take over the position. If he doesn't show consistency in his job early, look for them to cut bait and bring in Gresham or another experienced snapper. Unfortunately it may take a few uncomfortable plays for this to transpire.
 

bigskydoc

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
4,125
Reaction score
1,470
Location
Kalispell, MT
SeaToTheHawks":3qree0au said:
Add another one to the board that doesn't get it.

Oh, I get it. I just think your long snapper impact factor calculations are way off, especially when considering a team who's entire philosophy is control the ball, control the field position, and keep the games close. Is there another team who even approaches the number of one-score games that we have been involved with since Carroll took over?

Looking at FGs and PATs, I would say the long snapper and holder are roughly responsible for 25% each and the kicker 50%. In 2016 there were 29 successful field goals and 45 successful PATs in the regular season for a total of 132 points. Lets say Gresham was responsible for 25% or 33 points. This doesn't approach the 84 points scored by Baldwin in his record season, but it does compare favorably to Lockett with 36 points, Kearse with 30, Rawls with 24 and far surpasses any other player save Wilson. Admittedly, these calculations are a bit foolish, but then again so is the use of VoRP in a sport where entire careers are likely to have fewer games than one season in baseball, and for a position where the average effectiveness approaches 100%.

Of course we aren't comparing Gresham to an average replacement player like we normally would when calculating the VoRP. We are comparing him to a known entity who is performing well below the expectation for an average replacement player. We also aren't talking about the other part of value which is cost.

As a percentage of the salary cap, the difference in cost between Gresham and Frese for 2016 is 0.00129%. I just don't see a VoRP too small to make it worth going with the marginally cheaper player over the known commodity. If we were talking about a defensive end where the difference might be 5% of the salary cap, then it might be reasonable to consider the VoRP.
 

bigskydoc

Well-known member
Joined
Dec 18, 2013
Messages
4,125
Reaction score
1,470
Location
Kalispell, MT
Since Gresham was cut, I have maintained that it had nothing to do with the Seahawks' plan for him for 2016, and more to do with 2017 and beyond. I believe he was cut early to free up roster spots for the off season, and to give him a chance to sign with another team. They were hoping to find a rookie who could fill the spot for the next few years, but plan to bring Gresham back at the end of the pre-season if his replacement isn't found.

Next year, he will have 7 years accrued experience and his cap savings is $900,000. We could just about bring in 2 rookies for that price. With the cap savings this year and next, we could bring in 3 rookies.

Unless Frese turns it around, I fully expect to see Gresham back on the team for the regular season, but I don't see any way he is back for 2017. Vet min is $900,000 and cap savings would be $800,000 if we resign him to that.
 

SeaToTheHawks

New member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
765
Reaction score
0
bigskydoc":w343nj8e said:
SeaToTheHawks":w343nj8e said:
Add another one to the board that doesn't get it.

Oh, I get it. I just think your long snapper impact factor calculations are way off, especially when considering a team who's entire philosophy is control the ball, control the field position, and keep the games close. Is there another team who even approaches the number of one-score games that we have been involved with since Carroll took over?

Looking at FGs and PATs, I would say the long snapper and holder are roughly responsible for 25% each and the kicker 50%. In 2016 there were 29 successful field goals and 45 successful PATs in the regular season for a total of 132 points. Lets say Gresham was responsible for 25% or 33 points. This doesn't approach the 84 points scored by Baldwin in his record season, but it does compare favorably to Lockett with 36 points, Kearse with 30, Rawls with 24 and far surpasses any other player save Wilson. Admittedly, these calculations are a bit foolish, but then again so is the use of VoRP in a sport where entire careers are likely to have fewer games than one season in baseball, and for a position where the average effectiveness approaches 100%.

Of course we aren't comparing Gresham to an average replacement player like we normally would when calculating the VoRP. We are comparing him to a known entity who is performing well below the expectation for an average replacement player. We also aren't talking about the other part of value which is cost.

As a percentage of the salary cap, the difference in cost between Gresham and Frese for 2016 is 0.00129%. I just don't see a VoRP too small to make it worth going with the marginally cheaper player over the known commodity. If we were talking about a defensive end where the difference might be 5% of the salary cap, then it might be reasonable to consider the VoRP.

Pretty good rebuttal. But you can't go just on points. You can't say that Gresham 33 points is better than Kearse 30 as Kearse does a lot more helping to get into field position for others to score points.

Also, let's say Gresham replacement this year accounts for 27 points, or 6 less, because of bad snaps. 6 points out a total of 423, only accounts for 1.4% of total points. So 1.4% of 16 games is only roughly .2 games.
 

HawkAroundTheClock

New member
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
2,417
Reaction score
0
Location
Over There
The deciding factor for me is about margin for error. In close games, the field goal, extra point, and punt units have no room for mistakes.

When you have a snapper and holder who both know the exact number of rotations the football will experience from snap to hold versus a snapper who's shaky under the bright lights of, ahem, preseason... there's no question.
 

SeaToTheHawks

New member
Joined
Oct 30, 2012
Messages
765
Reaction score
0
FlyingGreg":3f6xxvdy said:
SeaToTheHawks":3f6xxvdy said:
TatupuIsRRRR":3f6xxvdy said:
BigSkyDoc FTW!

:rumble:

Not quite.

I am trying to understand you stubbornness on this one....

Are you arguing AGAINST bringing Gresham back for this season? And going with an unproven rookie?

Not at all. Gresham is a proven. If the money is right bring him in.

I'm arguing against a LS being worth as many as 2 extra wins a season.
 

FlyingGreg

Active member
Joined
Mar 5, 2007
Messages
9,515
Reaction score
0
Location
Colorado Springs, Colorado
SeaToTheHawks":bou51q3m said:
FlyingGreg":bou51q3m said:
SeaToTheHawks":bou51q3m said:
TatupuIsRRRR":bou51q3m said:
BigSkyDoc FTW!

:rumble:

Not quite.

I am trying to understand you stubbornness on this one....

Are you arguing AGAINST bringing Gresham back for this season? And going with an unproven rookie?

Not at all. Gresham is a proven. If the money is right bring him in.

I'm arguing against a LS being worth as many as 2 extra wins a season.

Ahh, ok. Thanks.
 

BlueTalon

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
9,081
Reaction score
1,834
Location
Eastern Washington
SeaToTheHawks":1i0lk3i4 said:
I'm arguing against a LS being worth as many as 2 extra wins a season.
You're looking at it backwards. Having the right long snapper isn't going to result in two additional wins in a season. But having the wrong long snapper could very well result in two additional losses in a season.

The goal in having the right long snapper isn't to add extra wins, it's to insure against extra losses.
 

chris98251

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 27, 2007
Messages
39,717
Reaction score
1,747
Location
Roy Wa.
Don't want to see this stuff happening.



JagsFail.gif


Raiders_PuntFail.gif


what-is-ryan-allen-doing-on-this-patriots-punt.gif
 
Top