Tim Hasselbeck on Seahawks WR's

[scutterhawk]

Tate and Baldwin are good 3-4 WR, they are below avg as 1-2.

Below average as 1-2, my ass, You are wrong, and Warren Moon backs me up on this discussion, care to try again?

 

[SoHo9erFan]

I think they are formidable enough to win a SB, but some of you are really over hyping their talent. There isn't a true #1. Teams have won championships without a true #1 (Patriots, Steelers), so it's not like it is a devastating verity...

But, likely, you guys will have the 2nd or 3rd worst WR corps in the NFC playoffs.

What does that mean? Probably nothing

 

[Blitzer88]

They're not great, but they're not terrible either. But man, they better pick up their game this week or we are in trouble.

 

[AgentDib]

I read a lot of opposing fan boards and two things are true just about everywhere. They think their OL needs major improvement, and they like their own receivers more than outsiders do. For the latter, I suspect it is because few follow WR depth on other teams. When you know 6 WR on your team and only 2 on an opposing team it is easy to overrate your own group a bit.

 

[CPHawk]

Tate and Baldwin are good 3-4 WR, they are below avg as 1-2.

Below average as 1-2, my ass, You are wrong, and Warren Moon backs me up on this discussion, care to try again?

Really? Would you take them over Arizonas 1-2 WR? What about Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, NY G, Atl, KC, Den, SD, Clev, Cin, NO, TB, Houston, tenn, or GB. That's half the NFL right there who have better WR than us. And finding a good one seems easy for some of these teams, and we aren't talking top picks.

SD hit a home run with a WR we could have had in Allen, a guy we all new about. The Bengals keep finding WR like it's finding Easter egg in plain sight. WR are available, we just are missing on them for guys like Michael, who I like but we needed a starter there.

Imagine if we don't trade for Harvin, and this team had Patterson and Allen on it. That would be a very, very good WR core.

 

[Missing_Clink]

Tate and Baldwin are good 3-4 WR, they are below avg as 1-2.

Below average as 1-2, my ass, You are wrong, and Warren Moon backs me up on this discussion, care to try again?

Come on dude. Seahawk employee Warren Moon? He's not the best source for objective analysis of the roster. He toes the company line. They may be average, but they are clearly well below the elite duos in the NFL

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Tate and Baldwin are good 3-4 WR, they are below avg as 1-2.

Below average as 1-2, my ass, You are wrong, and Warren Moon backs me up on this discussion, care to try again?

Tate is a good solid 2. Baldwin is a 2-3 currently but with upside to get to Welker territory as he matures. There is a reason we gave the house for Harvin... because he's a bonafide 1. Then you consider Rice....a top tier 2 that has flashes of a 1.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Tate and Baldwin are good 3-4 WR, they are below avg as 1-2.

Below average as 1-2, my ass, You are wrong, and Warren Moon backs me up on this discussion, care to try again?

Tate is a good solid 2. Baldwin is a 2-3 currently but with upside to get to Welker territory as he matures. There is a reason we gave the house for Harvin... because he's a bonafide 1.And then you consider Rice, he's a top 2 that edged to 1.

 

[mrblitz]

at times, wilson and the wideouts have displayed an uncanny synergy. it was hoped that this would have been more of a constant than it turned out to be. instead, that synergy has been sporadic. hopefully they will get it back for the last 4 games.

even though he's not a wr, maybe they need to lean a bit more on willson... double his number of targets or somesuch.

i've seen enough of rice and harvin and would like to go a different direction next year.

 

[Grahamhawker]

Tate and Baldwin are good 3-4 WR, they are below avg as 1-2.

Below average as 1-2, my ass, You are wrong, and Warren Moon backs me up on this discussion, care to try again?

Really? Would you take them over Arizonas 1-2 WR? What about Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, NY G, Atl, KC, Den, SD, Clev, Cin, NO, TB, Houston, tenn, or GB. That's half the NFL right there who have better WR than us. And finding a good one seems easy for some of these teams, and we aren't talking top picks.

SD hit a home run with a WR we could have had in Allen, a guy we all new about. The Bengals keep finding WR like it's finding Easter egg in plain sight. WR are available, we just are missing on them for guys like Michael, who I like but we needed a starter there.

Imagine if we don't trade for Harvin, and this team had Patterson and Allen on it. That would be a very, very good WR core.

I think that's a pretty fair assessment. I like our wrs, but they're not scaring anybody. How much could Hawks use a guy like Boldin even?

 

[TwoDayBooze]

Tate and Baldwin are good 3-4 WR, they are below avg as 1-2.

Below average as 1-2, my ass, You are wrong, and Warren Moon backs me up on this discussion, care to try again?

Really? Would you take them over Arizonas 1-2 WR? What about Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, NY G, Atl, KC, Den, SD, Clev, Cin, NO, TB, Houston, tenn, or GB. That's half the NFL right there who have better WR than us. And finding a good one seems easy for some of these teams, and we aren't talking top picks.

SD hit a home run with a WR we could have had in Allen, a guy we all new about. The Bengals keep finding WR like it's finding Easter egg in plain sight. WR are available, we just are missing on them for guys like Michael, who I like but we needed a starter there.

Imagine if we don't trade for Harvin, and this team had Patterson and Allen on it. That would be a very, very good WR core.

Just had this thought today. I think the Harvin trade will work out in the long-run but I have to wonder how much better they would be right now if they had drafted someone who could have contributed from day 1. Allen, Hopkins, or Patterson might have been deadly. You wont see me complain though as an opposing fan.

 

[TwilightError]

Baldwin = good enough.
Kearse = ?
Tate = A unique player and a difference maker but not a guy who is reliable throughout the season, or even throughout a game. I still am not sure what we have here..
Lockette = Only here cause someone has to fill the spot.

Willson could become the big bodied mismatch guy with sure hands, but he is not there yet. That is what is obviously missing.

I have given up on Harvin. Right now, I cant get interested about what we might or might not have next season. This season he was worth nothing.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

at times, wilson and the wideouts have displayed an uncanny synergy. it was hoped that this would have been more of a constant than it turned out to be. instead, that synergy has been sporadic. hopefully they will get it back for the last 4 games.

even though he's not a wr, maybe they need to lean a bit more on willson... double his number of targets or somesuch.

i've seen enough of rice and harvin and would like to go a different direction next year.

You've seen enough of Harvin? So 5-10 plays was enough for you? My advice? Get a grip and come experience the reality of the NFL with the rest of us. Guess what? Injury happens just ask Houston and Dallas about the linchpin linebackers of their respective defenses.

Just like the usual suspects are always overreacting and painting the situation in the most ridiculous and negative terms concerning the the situation I am done with standing by and accepting such views as gospel fact. So deal with it and realize hip surgery isn't some minor deal and more likely his return isn't actually in his control just like Aaron Rodgers. Or I guess we could go to Dallas route and shoot him up, hope he can play but with the real risk of screwing him up big time and long term?

 

[Tokadub]

I disagree that we have a lack of talent at WR, or our receiver group as a whole. Sure we could use 2 more guys like Harvin and Rice, but I think you are crazy if you are blaming our offensive struggles on our receivers.

There are quite a few things that make a receiver "talented", some measurable some intangible but I'll try to go through a few of them.


1) Speed

I see quite a few people saying our guys can't get separation. But when I look at their stats I can't say that this is because of their speed. If you want to say we can't get separation I think you have got to blame our offensive coordinator and his designed routes. Wish I could go to a live game to see the routes and separation all at once for an entire game but our guys do have speed.

40 yard dash times:

Ricardo Lockette 4.34
Harvin 4.41
Tate 4.42
Kearse 4.43
Willson 4.46 (seems impossible but is reported on credible websites..)
Lynch 4.46
Baldwin 4.47
Sydney Rice 4.51
Michael Robinson 4.57


Here's the 40 yard dash times of the current top 10 receivers in total yards this season:

Josh Gordon 4.52
Calvin Johnson 4.32
Antonio Brown 4.47
AJ Green 4.5
Andre Johnson 4.41
Alshon Jeffery 4.48
Desean Jackson 4.35
Pierre Garcon 4.48
Erick Decker 4.54

Other notable recievers:

Jimmy Graham 4.53
Jordy Nelson 4.51
Anquan Boldin 4.71
Larry Fitzergald 4.63
Tony Gonzales 4.49
Wes Welker 4.65
Dez Bryant 4.52
Vernon Davis 4.38
Michael Crabtree 4.53


So you can see that speed is not our problem. Ricardo Lockette is the 2nd fastest of the whole bunch, would like to see him get a few more plays. We have multiple guys who are very comparable or even faster than the top 10 receivers this year.

So once again if you are going to say we aren't getting separation it might have something to do with our offensive schemes not the players speed.


2) Height

This may be a legit concern as we don't have really any tall WR especially with Rice injured. But we brought in a 5'11'' Harvin who is very injury prone so hmm...

But anyways when you look at the guys height in the top 20 total yards receiving this season:

3 of the top 10 guys are 6'0" and under
7 of the top 20 guys are 6'0" and under

So about 30% of the best receivers are 6'0" and under so we can't say our guys can't do it just based on height alone. There are 7 guys in the NFL 6'0" or under with 1000+ recieving yards (well technically Victor Cruz is 998).

Antonio Brown is 5'10" with over 1400 yards and a 4.47 40... This guys pretty much identical in size and speed as Baldwin, and Tate. Kearse is taller and all 3 of our guys are just as fast if not faster.

Now admittedly I haven't seen much Antonio Brown since he's on the Steelers so I can't compare his playmaking skills to our guys but given how all 3 of our guys can make insane catches I'm assuming it's pretty close.


3) Average Yards Per Reception + Total Yards

We have a ton of guys with over 10 yards per reception, pretty much all of them are 12+ per reception, closer to 15 on average.

Russel Wilson is ranked #4 in the league for yards per attempt, he is ahead of Payton Manning and Drew Brees.

A very important variable for yards per attempt is completion percentage, and Wilson has dropped quite a bit in our recent slump down to #13 but still a respectable 63%. If our completion % is ranked lower than our yards per attempt it means our receivers are getting it done when they catch the ball.

Total yards we aren't really standing out individually with Baldwin our leading receiver with 778 yards, may not sound too great but he's tied with Wes Welker. Truth is none of our guys get enough attempts to reach those top numbers. I think this is by design to spread the ball out, but this requires good play calling to not rely on one particular guy, our play calling has not been good.


4) Good Hands, Clutch catches, Intangibles

I think nearly all our receivers have great hands and can make very high difficulty catches on a regular basis. We have some very athletic guys who can go up and get it no matter where it is or how much the defender seems to have the superior positioning. Our less athletic guys like Zach Miller seem to make up for it with steady hands, good awareness, and seems to be on the same page as Wilson.

Up until the last few games our entire receiving core have been downright incredible in their ability to catch anything that was even remotely in their area.


Conclusion:

Our receivers are very good, but our offensive play calling and ball distribution does not give them the stats to go rubbing it in the fantasy football faces.

I think it's absolutely crazy to blame our wide receivers or any of our recievers. I think our offensive blame should be.

1) Bevell
2) Offensive Line
3) Bevell, just had to list him twice here it's really how I feel about this situation.
4) Spreading the ball out (not a bad thing but why our receivers may not seem as good as they are if all you look at is production)
5) Wilson is very careful with the ball and would rather throw it out of bounds or run it a bit than risk an interception. This is not a bad thing either but on some of those plays our guys could of caught the ball no doubt.
6) Maybe Pete Caroll is influencing the offense more than we know. He was saying we didn't run the ball enough against Arizona the #1 ranked run defense so you never know...
7) Harvin if he doesn't play in playoffs... what a let down.

 

[Scottemojo]

Our receivers lack a physical nature at creating separation. All of them. Tate is the most physical, but most of that is after he catches the ball.

The back shoulder throws to Kearse are a concession to his inability to separate. Baldwin creates separation with some of the sickest hips in the NFL, seriously if he was on the Patriots he would have 110 catches a year. Lockette has remedial route running skills. Tate is amazing in a lot of ways, but creating separation isn't one of them.

But not one of them can create separation with a big body, they all have to extend their arms to push if they want to create separation. We drafted Chris Harper hoping he could, but he didn't have any physicality or route running skills.

When Hasselbeck says Wilson covers up how average they are, he is not lying.

 

[Tokadub]

Being physical in separation could be an intangible weakness of our receivers but I couldn't really say for sure without going to a game live.

I've got to imagine if they were more physical the refs would just call non stop offensive pass interference on us. They really seem out to get us

We already in the top 10 in the league with offensive interference calls according to this site:

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/off ... ?year=2013

But I think one or two of those calls was pretty garbage so maybe they really aren't overly physical in their route running.

But I can't complain about their physicality going up and getting the ball. Isn't the other route running physicality stuff technically illegal for the most part?

I don't disagree with you necessarily I am just not sure if you could say this is a big weakness of our receivers. If it was a weakness they should be calling different plays than what we've been seeing lately. I tend to believe our separation issues are mainly caused by the predictable play calling, not getting the ball out quickly, all the types of pass plays tons of posters here have been wondering about why we aren't using them.

 

[Scottemojo]

Being physical in separation could be an intangible weakness of our receivers but I couldn't really say for sure without going to a game live.

I've got to imagine if they were more physical the refs would just call non stop offensive pass interference on us. They really seem out to get us

We already in the top 10 in the league with offensive interference calls according to this site:

http://www.nflpenalties.com/penalty/off ... ?year=2013

But I think one or two of those calls was pretty garbage so maybe they really aren't overly physical in their route running.

But I can't complain about their physicality going up and getting the ball. Isn't the other route running physicality stuff technically illegal for the most part?

I don't disagree with you necessarily I am just not sure if you could say this is a big weakness of our receivers. If it was a weakness they should be calling different plays than what we've been seeing lately. I tend to believe our separation issues are mainly caused by the predictable play calling, not getting the ball out quickly, all the types of pass plays tons of posters here have been wondering about why we aren't using them.

Like I said, they can't create separation without using their arms. Which is why Kearse and Tate have been called for OPI, they extended their arms to create separation. Baldwin creates it with his superior route running. None of our guys can consistently create separation the way a guy like Boldin does, run to your spot, give a little hip check, and give the QB a green side to throw to.

IMO, predictable play calling is part of the problem, but in a systemic way. It isn't that secondary players know where our receivers are going, it's that they know our pronounced tendency to run play action. It's the reason we have seen some good receiver screens, we occasionally catch a defense camping on play action, gambling that they can play off cover because of the slow developing nature of our play action.

Think of it like this. Here is a route tree.

Here is that same route tree with x to mark where you might have a corner



Now, think about how many of those routes are eliminated by traditional play action, Pistol play action, or bootlegs. The slant for one.

Don't get me wrong, I love play action, it is the beating heart of the big pass play. But when a team knows that situationally there is a 60 percent chance you are going to run it, why would they not play press bail, zone the play action hot spots, and in the case of Seattle, instruct the linebacker assigned to spy Wilson to blitz the moment he suspects play action? Which is what the Rams did last time we played them.

Our intermediate passing game is not a large part of what we do. It isn't because we can't. it's because a lot of that is eliminated by the slow developing play action, which I think we depend on too much. Russell has never shown an inability to drop back from center and make plays without a fake handoff, and in fact doing so would maximize some of the quickness skills of Baldwin and Tate.

 

[hawksfansinceday1]

Clearly they are not a top tier group right now, despite what ADB might say. Tate has demonstrated that he is a quality #2, but he's no #1. He completely disappears in games. Patrick Peterson had him on lockdown nearly the entire game last week. Baldwin also seems like a quality #2. But there is clearly no #1 on the roster presently, and no one with size. I would consider it and the O line the two weakest position groups on the team by far.

Agree on both accounts and I think Russ makes both groups look better than they actually are. I believe Marshawn does the same with the o-line too. What a crying shame Harvin hasn't been healthy/willing to play through injury (depending on your opinion of the guy). I think we'd have seen more of the slants, WR screens, etc. that Scott mentioned in the post above this one considering those types of routes are his strengths.

Hey Scott, is it possible we don't have anybody capable of gaining consistent separation on those intermediate routes like a Boldin or do you see it as simply Bevell and Pete always just wanting the homerun?

 

[BGHawk]

we are struggling a bit at the position no doubt..I say bring Moss in ..why not?

 

[RichNhansom]

I think Tate and Baldwin would shine significantly in a system that fits their talent. The problem right now is we don't have a true #1 or a true slot guy. Either of those would dramatically improve Tate and Baldwins performance. Unfortunately with Rice and Harvin out, Baldwin has had to slide outside away from the slot and we don't have a suitable replacement that draws coverage like Harvin would or having Bladwin in the slot with Rice on the field.

You take away any teams slot and #1 and the others are going to suffer.

I also believe we will be going after a WR with our first pick. With Harvin's money and resigning Tate (I think we will) we will be needing a cheap #1 and as we have all witnessed it is hard to luck into one of those in FA without breaking the bank.

Having either a dominant #1 or slot guy can make all the difference and would go a very long way in improving o-line play simply because more receiving options would be there.