The Birth Of A QB Destroyer

DavidSeven

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Irvin had 8 sacks in a limited role last year and flashed some dynamic playmaking. Does he have room to improve? Certainly. But look at the re-drafts that came out at the end of last season. They all suggest we took Irvin at around the right spot. Also, look at the jumps in production that Von Miller, JJ Watt and Aldon Smith made from Year 1 to Year 2. Not saying Bruce is on the level of those guys, but it seems pretty clear that pass rushing is a skill that develops with more NFL experience.

I see no reason to be skeptical of his potential. Very solid rookie campaign, especially from a guy who was almost unanimously considered a reach by the pundits. Let's not forget that he did all this with almost no interior pressure to speak of. He was more dangerous when Jason Jones was healthy (as was Clem).
 

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I don't think many here had us taking him on draft day, with 8 sacks that pick looks good for now. However 4 of those came in one game ,but you could also argue that the Green Bay game was instrumental in how the season played out. If he can build on what he did last year then the FO was right if he can't then maybe we call it for what some said on draft day a reach.
 
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Pandion Haliaetus

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Clemons had 4 sacks vs the Packers... the most sacks Irvin had in a game was 2 I believe, possibly in the same game but I could be wrong. Clemons had 4, Irvin 2, and Mebane 2.
 

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Pandion Haliaetus":2c26x3jt said:
Clemons had 4 sacks vs the Packers... the most sacks Irvin had in a game was 2 I believe, possibly in the same game but I could be wrong. Clemons had 4, Irvin 2, and Mebane 2.
Ok but it really doesn't change anything.
 

drdiags

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General Manager":2r111245 said:
Pandion Haliaetus":2r111245 said:
Clemons had 4 sacks vs the Packers... the most sacks Irvin had in a game was 2 I believe, possibly in the same game but I could be wrong. Clemons had 4, Irvin 2, and Mebane 2.
Ok but it really doesn't change anything.

Just your accuracy in stating the facts. You are claiming Irvin had 4 in one game. So he had 2. Means he got 6 over the next 15 instead of 4. Doesn't seem like much of a difference, so you are correct. Accuracy does count though.
 

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drdiags":2ru22vk8 said:
General Manager":2ru22vk8 said:
Pandion Haliaetus":2ru22vk8 said:
Clemons had 4 sacks vs the Packers... the most sacks Irvin had in a game was 2 I believe, possibly in the same game but I could be wrong. Clemons had 4, Irvin 2, and Mebane 2.
Ok but it really doesn't change anything.

Just your accuracy in stating the facts. You are claiming Irvin had 4 in one game. So he had 2. Means he got 6 over the next 15 instead of 4. Doesn't seem like much of a difference, so you are correct. Accuracy does count though.

I mixed up his sacks with Clemons .
 

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Strahan had what 22 sacks one year and when you look at the all time sack leaders in a single season 8 is very pedestrian. Then you take into account Irvin's inability to play DE full time you can understand why some of us aren't ready to call him an elite pass rusher let alone DE not yet.
 

Tech Worlds

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I think he is extremely immature and I am hoping that over the next few years he matures into a better football player both in between the lines and in between the ears.
 

DavidSeven

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General Manager":12oilwht said:
Strahan had what 22 sacks one year and when you look at the all time sack leaders in a single season 8 is very pedestrian. Then you take into account Irvin's inability to play DE full time you can understand why some of us aren't ready to call him an elite pass rusher let alone DE not yet.

You're seriously going to compare Michael Strahan's single greatest season to a rookie who played half the team's snaps? If 22 sacks is the benchmark we're judging all pass rushers, then Von Miller and Aldon Smith had "pedestrian" rookie seasons, too. FYI, Strahan didn't break 8 sacks until his 5th NFL season.
 
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Pandion Haliaetus

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No one is calling him a full time DE. My argument is that I (as in ME) believe the Seahawks are preparing him for LEO in 3 solid steps in a 3 year window:
1) Raheem Brock/Pass-Rush specialist role while building up his strength and pass-rush repertoire
2) The move to SAM which will allow him to work on/improve coverage and tackling ability, and give him the opportunity to attack the strong-side without costing the team growing pains or losing the effectiveness of the LEO role.
3) Actually play him at LEO, I even stated in the OP that I don't believe Irvin will be a complete player like Clemons just a better pass-rusher.

Who is calling him an elite pass-rusher possibly when compared to the other rookie pass-rusher, Irvin is. But I'll just leave this here, again as my post was probably overlooked on page 2:

Clemons, 9 year vet in 2012, had 11.5 sacks in 840 snaps, take away his best game leaves Clemons with 7.5 sacks.

Irvin, a rookie in 2012, had 8.0 sacks in 415 snaps, take away his best game leaves Irvin with 6.0 sacks.

Btw, if you can't do the math, Clemons had 425 more snaps than Irvin with only 3.5 more sacks plus 8 more years in the NFL.

Irvin likely was one of the most productive pass-rushers per snap in the NFL last season, I would say that's elite in some way.
 
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Pandion Haliaetus

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DavidSeven":wi5dnjyk said:
General Manager":wi5dnjyk said:
Strahan had what 22 sacks one year and when you look at the all time sack leaders in a single season 8 is very pedestrian. Then you take into account Irvin's inability to play DE full time you can understand why some of us aren't ready to call him an elite pass rusher let alone DE not yet.

You're seriously going to compare Michael Strahan's single greatest season to a rookie who played half the team's snaps? If 22 sacks is the benchmark we're judging all pass rushers, then Von Miller and Aldon Smith had "pedestrian" rookie seasons, too. FYI, Strahan didn't break 8 sacks until his 5th NFL season.

Just to strengthen your point: Less than half, hawkstatistics.com had Irvin at 44.1% of all defensive snaps if the site is correct.
 

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DavidSeven":6l2c62s4 said:
General Manager":6l2c62s4 said:
Strahan had what 22 sacks one year and when you look at the all time sack leaders in a single season 8 is very pedestrian. Then you take into account Irvin's inability to play DE full time you can understand why some of us aren't ready to call him an elite pass rusher let alone DE not yet.

You're seriously going to compare Michael Strahan's single greatest season to a rookie who played half the team's snaps? If 22 sacks is the benchmark we're judging all pass rushers, then Von Miller and Aldon Smith had "pedestrian" rookie seasons, too. FYI, Strahan didn't break 8 sacks until his 5th NFL season.

Just sayin there's more than one way to look at 8 sacks . You can spin this a lot of ways the simple fact is he's not a starting DE and he has a long way to go before he's going to be an elite player.
 

Hawks46

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Well the only thing I have to poke at in the OP's first post, is that moving Wright to WILL doesn't make the most sense. WILLs are typically play in more space and are usually faster guys in the 4-3 alignment. I don't claim to be able to predict the mad genius that is our FO and coaching staff, but it seems to go against our FO's tendencies to put speed in space.

That said....most of us knew he was a project. I would disagree with some comments about his instincts. The tape I watched on him at WVU was limited, but what I saw was a guy that made plays against the run. When lining up wide (like he did his 1st year there) and gunning after the QB, you need to use instincts or a quick read to play the run at all, or you're overplayed and out of the picture. Bruce seemed to diagnose those plays pretty quickly. He also flashed that in the NFL, but there were times he misread as well. The NFL is obivously much more complex and it's fooled more than it's fair share of rookies, so I'm not too worried about progression yet.

The LEO plays the run much the same way: we're not talking about stuffing the tackle, it's shedding blocks (technique) and playing well in space, much of which is reading or diagnosing the play. With Irvin's athleticism, it's got to be tougher than hell to block him in space. So it's really come down to him picking up the cerebral side of the game: diagnosing run plays based on formations, getting quick reads, making adjustments to motions, etc. This is where it comes down to intangibles: can the kid learn, how fast can he learn, and does he take coaching well ? So far, it looks like he'll be fine in that department (of course this is an outside observation gleaned from "fluffed" press reports and media).

As for the roids...it certainly looks like he took them. Looking at a picture from this OTA...Clemons is working with Irvin on a hook move and Irvin looks 30% bigger than Clem. Seriously, it's not even close. So, we went from 6 lbs lighter than Clem to what...15 lbs heavier ? Sure looks like it. Now, does that mean he's dumb ? Absolutely not. He takes roids, loses 4 games out of the deal, but can still practice, go to TC, and play preseason. Losing 4 games is better and more efficient than another season of physical and mental development. Get bigger and stronger, hit your targetted size, then work on technique. I would say it's a calculated risk; you have to know in the NFL if you use ANYTHING you're going to get caught. Does it make him a cheater ? Yeah, but a lot of guys cheat. THey still get paid if the produce.

I think we'll see some progression from Bruce this year. How much is up for debate, but I'm guessing a positive progression forward.
 

kearly

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T-Sizzle":2o2dggy4 said:
kearly":2o2dggy4 said:
I was maybe Irvin's biggest fan here before that draft. When a topic was brought up many months before that draft (over at the draft forum) asking who everyone thought the #1 pass rusher was, I'm pretty sure I was the only one who named Irvin, and even back then, I felt that it wasn't even a close call.
:roll:

Uh, what are you rolling your eyes for? The thread I'm referring to goes back 10 months before your first post here, btw.

Also, I wasn't trying to brag about getting it right about Irvin- I was simply establishing that I am in Irvin's corner and have been since before he was even a Seahawk. That way people would differentiate my critical statements. They'd see that I'm not trying to hate on the guy, but that I'm citing concerns for a player I like quite a bit.

vin.couve12":2o2dggy4 said:
Completely lacks natural talent? And to think teams were looking for the next Bruce Irvin in the draft this year. lol

I meant talent other than physical talent, to be clear. He has a lot of physical talent. You can't just get by on physical talent in the NFL though. Even JPP had to grow his skill base a little.

Irvin has no skill for shedding pass blocks, he has to sell out in the run game to not be a disaster, and he doesn't know how to manage blockers and disengage for tackles. This is a guy who nearly had as many sacks (8) as tackles (10) last season. For comparison, Aldon Smith had 31 tackles playing a very similar role during his rookie season (2011). Smith was larger and that does factor quite a bit, but Smith also has something akin to linebacker type instincts for getting to the ball which Irvin completely lacks. Right now Irvin is a terrific athlete but also a blank slate in terms of development.

The good news is that it's possible Irvin could never develop and still be a useful player if Quinn's spinner idea works out. So I'm not terribly worried about Irvin right now. That said, I think anyone that thinks Irvin is a LEO today is someone in need of a reality check. Until we see some fairly massive development, Irvin will remain a situational player, and based on how little he developed the last 3 years (WVU and Seattle), it doesn't seem like that development is imminent. And it may never come. Some things (like instincts) can't really be taught. But again, it might not be that big a deal so long as Seattle finds a use for whatever type of player Bruce Irvin tops out as.
 

Scottemojo

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General Manager":ivo18r3q said:
Strahan had what 22 sacks one year and when you look at the all time sack leaders in a single season 8 is very pedestrian. Then you take into account Irvin's inability to play DE full time you can understand why some of us aren't ready to call him an elite pass rusher let alone DE not yet.
You want to go down this road? Strahan had 17 sacks total his first 4 years. Measuring a rookie season vs Strahan's best is the ultimate in cherry picking stats. Kinda lame.
 

Scottemojo

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He was drafted to replace Clemons at LEO, who is half decent vs the run. That is my big concern. I can see Irvin being a 12 sack guy, but if he is a situational player because he can't stop the run, he is not replacing Clemons. Pure and simple.
 

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