Steve Hutchinson?

LeveeBreak

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The record of Hutch's lies, the poison pill clause, and the decision by the Special Master. That asymmetric language didn't just show up, it had to be crafted. Hutch originally claimed he didn't now about it. Some days later, he admitted to knowing about it. When the Special Master made his ruling, he ruled that the poison pill language was valid and operable because Hutch had asked for it to be there. That puts Hutch squarely in the planning phase of that contract offer.

And remember, all of this was happening quite fast. There was a grand total of about a week between when Hutch first told Seattle media he didn't know about the poison pill and the Special Master's ruling.

The other interpretation, the one that says Hutch felt dissed because he got the transition tag instead of the franchise tag, is based on the assumption that a player wants to be franchise tagged because of the money involved. Clearly, the vast majority of players getting the franchise tag do not feel that way about it. And people who think Ruskell put the transition tag on Hutch instead of the franchise tag because of the money don't really understand the point of the transition tag. The transition tag functioned in Hutch's case exactly as it was designed. Nobody could have envisioned it would be abused in the way Hutch, his agent, and the Vikings abused it, because nothing like it had ever been done before. Without that abuse, the Vikings would have shot their best shot at a contract trying to pry Hutch from the Seahawks, Hutch would have received a matching offer from the Seahawks, and he would have played 2006 next to Walter Jones.
Ok…but sources would help. Or, is this reasonable deduction?
 

BlueTalon

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Ok…but sources would help. Or, is this reasonable deduction?
There were sources all over the place at the time. Nothing I'm saying was deducted, it was all reported. If you want to do a deep dive, you are welcome to look for old articles from Seattle Times, Seattle P.I., Tacoma News Tribune, NFL.com, and probably ESPN and FOX Sports.

Funny side story: I was in an argument about this on a Redskins website I was a member of. Some clown was trying to argue that I was wrong because Wikipedia's definition of poison pill didn't include anything like the Hutch fiasco... so I edited Wikipedia to include it. Then my edit got quoted by one of the Seattle newspapers -- specifically the phrase "asymmetric impact clause." Then I used the Wikipedia entry and my quoted phrase in the Seattle newspaper to hammer home my point in that argument on the Redskins website. A lot of guys there thought that was pretty funny.
 
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Aircrew

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The record of Hutch's lies, the poison pill clause, and the decision by the Special Master. That asymmetric language didn't just show up, it had to be crafted. Hutch originally claimed he didn't know about it. Some days later, he admitted to knowing about it. When the Special Master made his ruling, he ruled that the poison pill language was valid and operable because Hutch had asked for it to be there. That puts Hutch squarely in the planning phase of that contract offer.

And remember, all of this was happening quite fast. There was a grand total of about a week between when Hutch first told Seattle media he didn't know about the poison pill and the Special Master's ruling.

The other interpretation, the one that says Hutch felt dissed because he got the transition tag instead of the franchise tag, is based on the assumption that a player wants to be franchise tagged because of the money involved. Clearly, the vast majority of players getting the franchise tag do not feel that way about it. And people who think Ruskell put the transition tag on Hutch instead of the franchise tag because of the money don't really understand the point of the transition tag. The transition tag functioned in Hutch's case exactly as it was designed. Nobody could have envisioned it would be abused in the way Hutch, his agent, and the Vikings abused it, because nothing like it had ever been done before. Without that abuse, the Vikings would have shot their best shot at a contract trying to pry Hutch from the Seahawks, Hutch would have received a matching offer from the Seahawks, and he would have played 2006 next to Walter Jones.
100%. This is why I don't have any use for Hutch. And, let's not forget, he changed his Twitter name to "PoisonPill" or some variation right after it happened. Just rubbed our noses in it.
 

LeveeBreak

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There were sources all over the place at the time. Nothing I'm saying was deducted, it was all reported. If you want to do a deep dive, you are welcome to look for old articles from Seattle Times, Seattle P.I., Tacoma News Tribune, NFL.com, and probably ESPN and FOX Sports.
Not really. I paid pretty close attention at that time and do not remember any concrete source stating that hutch conjured that all up. I do remember Holmgren getting pissed and the locker room reacting. The way Hutch talked about Walter and Tobek makes me think he didn't hat it here.

The mystery goes on.
 

BASF

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There are 2 lines of thinking on reason…1) Hutch felt dissed 2) Hutch was the mastermind with help from his agent (and your an dumbass to think otherwise).

However…I’ve read more reports of the former. What support is there for the latter? Curious minds would like to know.
Ask yourself where the reports of the former come from. Do you think Hutch and his agent would come out and say I wanted out of Seattle and made it happen? Or do you think the agent and player knew that the fans would turn on Hutch?

The only person who could come out and refute what Hutch was saying was Ruskell. How in the world could he come out and admit that the agent and player worked his ass like a puppet? To do so was career suicide. Better to let people think that he was a moustache twirler just waiting for poor coach Holmgren to go on vacation and screw over the organization that gave him his only chance as the top guy.

Also, there is a far cry from being a dumbass and being naive.
 

LeveeBreak

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Ask yourself where the reports of the former come from.
What reports?
Do you think Hutch and his agent would come out and say I wanted out of Seattle and made it happen? Or do you think the agent and player knew that the fans would turn on Hutch?
Wait...BT said there were lots of reports. Now you are saying they would never tell anyone. Which is it? Are there legit reports or is this reasonable deduction...and if that, there are holes in the reasoning...1st being, there is nothing to support it.
The only person who could come out and refute what Hutch was saying was Ruskell. How in the world could he come out and admit that the agent and player worked his ass like a puppet? To do so was career suicide. Better to let people think that he was a moustache twirler just waiting for poor coach Holmgren to on vacation and screw over the organization that gave him his only chance as the top guy.
Speculation until proof is provided. Show your hand...I'm not gonna work to prove a point that appears to be supposition. Still open to the idea...but not convinced.
Also, there is a far cry from being a dumbass and being naive.
Any opinion w/o proof would appear naive IMO. Just sayin.
 

BASF

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What reports?

Wait...BT said there were lots of reports. Now you are saying they would never tell anyone. Which is it? Are there legit reports or is this reasonable deduction...and if that, there are holes in the reasoning...1st being, there is nothing to support it.

Speculation until proof is provided. Show your hand...I'm not gonna work to prove a point that appears to be supposition. Still open to the idea...but not convinced.

Any opinion w/o proof would appear naive IMO. Just sayin.
The reports I mentioned are a direct quote from you.

LeveeBreak:
There are 2 lines of thinking on reason…1) Hutch felt dissed 2) Hutch was the mastermind with help from his agent (and your an dumbass to think otherwise).

However…I’ve read more reports of the former. What support is there for the latter? Curious minds would like to know.

I am baffled that you didn't understand the quote that directly came from you. Allow me to spell it out: Hutch and his agent put forth the reports saying that he felt dissed for receiving the transition tag to keep naive fans from turning on him.

Is that clear enough?

As far as reports for the latter, that has nothing to do with my point. Your back and forth with BlueTalon is your back and forth with BlueTalon. My point is that there would be nothing coming from Ruskell refuting the transition tag narrative that the agent and Hutch spun, because to do so would make him look like a total moron that was completely duped by the agent and the player which would cost him his career.

Is that clear enough?
 

BlueTalon

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Not really. I paid pretty close attention at that time and do not remember any concrete source stating that hutch conjured that all up. I do remember Holmgren getting pissed and the locker room reacting. The way Hutch talked about Walter and Tobek makes me think he didn't hat it here.
Well, in hindsight, obviously he didn't want to be in Seattle, because he asked for that poison pill language to be in the contract. If you don't remember the reporting that the Special Master ruled the contract language to be valid because Hutch had asked for it to be part of the contract, then either you weren't paying attention to the right stuff back then or your memory has a few gaps in it.

Not trying to dis you, all of our memories have some gaps, my own included.
 

LeveeBreak

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The reports I mentioned are a direct quote from you.

LeveeBreak:
There are 2 lines of thinking on reason…1) Hutch felt dissed 2) Hutch was the mastermind with help from his agent (and your an dumbass to think otherwise).

However…I’ve read more reports of the former. What support is there for the latter? Curious minds would like to know.

I am baffled that you didn't understand the quote that directly came from you. Allow me to spell it out: Hutch and his agent put forth the reports saying that he felt dissed for receiving the transition tag to keep naive fans from turning on him.
Baffled? I was curious if you had the reports they put out there? Still looking for facts...not speculation.
Is that clear enough?

As far as reports for the latter, that has nothing to do with my point. Your back and forth with BlueTalon is your back and forth with BlueTalon. My point is that there would be nothing coming from Ruskell refuting the transition tag narrative that the agent and Hutch spun, because to do so would make him look like a total moron that was completely duped by the agent and the player which would cost him his career.
Understand the thinking...still waiting on the facts.
Is that clear enough?
No.
 

LeveeBreak

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Well, in hindsight, obviously he didn't want to be in Seattle, because he asked for that poison pill language to be in the contract. If you don't remember the reporting that the Special Master ruled the contract language to be valid because Hutch had asked for it to be part of the contract, then either you weren't paying attention to the right stuff back then or your memory has a few gaps in it.
At my age...many gaps exist.
Not trying to dis you, all of our memories have some gaps, my own included.
Understood...just looking for credible references. I'll take a look at the special master if I can find it. That would be the type of non-bias facts to support the statement.

Appreciate the exchange.
 

BlueTalon

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At my age...many gaps exist.

Understood...just looking for credible references. I'll take a look at the special master if I can find it. That would be the type of non-bias facts to support the statement.

Appreciate the exchange.
I'll look too.
 

LeveeBreak

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I'll look too.

This tells the story most think of. It sheds light on why Hutch would be pissed about not getting franchised…he had been negotiating from the prior year and felt Ruskell hadn’t been taking it serious, because he didn’t want to be the 1st one to pay a guard that level of scratch. Then Holme tells him that he’ll either sign a new contract or get franchised, either way a big payday. Then Ruskell goes lower again with a transition tag. Did his agent help with the language…maybe/probably. Hutch would have to approve the proposal. But paints more of a guy pissed at getting played with by a GM that failed to see his value as a guard, opposed to wanting out of Seattle.


Nothing about a request from Condon to Ruskell for the trans tag. Not sold on that line yet.

still looking for special master info, but not getting hits with details.


 
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chris98251

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Just a reminder this whole fiasco happened very rapidly as well, once the Tranny Tag was assigned things went crazy.
 

BlueTalon

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This tells the story most think of. It sheds light on why Hutch would be pissed about not getting franchised…he had been negotiating from the prior year and felt Ruskell hadn’t been taking it serious, because he didn’t want to be the 1st one to pay a guard that level of scratch. Then Holme tells him that he’ll either sign a new contract or get franchised, either way a big payday. Then Ruskell goes lower again with a transition tag. Did his agent help with the language…maybe/probably. Hutch would have to approve the proposal. But paints more of a guy pissed at getting played with by a GM that failed to see his value as a guard, opposed to wanting out of Seattle.


Nothing about a request from Condon to Ruskell for the trans tag. Not sold on that line yet.

still looking for special master info, but not getting hits with details.


Yep. I've been wrong about Hutch being pissed about not being franchised, so I need to own that. My assumption was based on how other players respond to getting the franchise tag, not any direct knowledge of Hutch's own views at the time, so my bad on that. Related to that is what Ruskell's view of the situation was at the time. I've been assuming he used to transition tag to allow Hutch to negotiate the best deal for himself he could get, you know, the way the tag was designed and the way things actually turned out (minus the poison pill). If it really was just about the difference in the tag money, then he's a moron.

In my own defense, I was living in Texas at the time, so I might have missed a lot of discussion that was happening locally in Seattle about it. My sources were Seattle/PNW newspapers online and national sources

My memory about the special master is clear, though. The Seahawks attempted to get the NFL to determine that the contract offer from the Vikings was illegitimate. The NFL punted -- I don't remember if it went to court and then the court assigned the special master, or if it went straight to the special master (who was a judge in his non special master life). But I'm pretty sure I remember it was a MN judge, or somewhere in the midwest. Anyway, I remember thinking that the whole special master thing was janky from the start, like it was a setup. In the end, his ruling was that the contract offer from MN was valid because Hutch had asked for that contract language to be there.
 
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