Sounders Season Thread ***YEDLIN SOLD***

[MizzouHawkGal]

Then the higher seed gets the benefit. Away goals always benefit one team more than the other. That's the point I was making.

away goals benefit the team that scores them. doesnt matter when. you act as if they are given to only one team.

again, aggregate scoring is set up to advance attacking play and to avoid extra time. extra time soccer becomes laborious and often leads to injury and poor play. teams are allowed 3 subs. usually by 90 minutes those subs have been used. most players after 90 minutes have already ran 8-12 miles. asking them to run another 30 doesnt improve the spectacle.

Then give each manager another substitution each 30 minutes played, or finish play another day. I still don't understand why one team benefits from only having to score one away goal.

It defeats competition from the home team in the first game, they just have to defend their home turf, if they don't allow scoring, then they just need to score a goal the next game and they'll advance.

Every North american sports league has odd-numbered series, why can't MLS do it? It's less confusing and better talent will always win.

the idea is that the away goal system allows teams to play more freely, and thus make each game more "neutral". Home field advantage is significant in European soccer (look at the stats some time). it doesnt defeat competition. that home team knows that giving up an away goal can be critical, but also know they only get 90 minutes in front of their supporters. the away team knows they can really gain an advantage by attacking, but also know that if they concede a goal they will need to be more careful in the return leg. again...it adds nothing to either team until the first touch of the ball.

Soccer doesnt want extra time. it was only 20-30 years ago that they didnt allow subs period. Seriously, just 11 guys. no subs. they want coaches and players thinking and strategizing the whole time. and while i'm not against adding a sub, it starts to muddle the two teams from a purist standpoint (my 11 against yours).

3 games is worse than just one in my opinion. you will always have one team with the extra home game, and soccer is a sport where repetitiveness does not lead to efficiency.

And you wonder why it never really catches on here. It needs to be Americanized for it to be really successful and Americans like definitive results in their sports contests. Again who cares what Europe does? That's like the NFL caring what the CFL does. Heck with all the different leagues they change the substitution rules and roster makeups anyway and then you have what the World Cup does.

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

Otherwise you get the ridiculous situation that happened or even better some visiting team winning a game 3-0 which says the second game is a pure waste given they would have to win 6-0 or something more stupid. Like that is going to happen realistically.

What was the ridiculous situation again? That both teams know how the aggregate system works before the playoffs start?

Ridiculous is playing til 4:00am with players dropping like flies due to exhaustion or injury because you don't like PK's or away goal weighted aggregate score.

You can't have it both ways, you either go to an overtime + PK's system, or away goal aggregate.........and every owner, GM, ,manager and player on the planet prefers the away goal aggregate system for tournament style soccer because it's the most fair and doesn't give the lesser opponent the opportunity to just play on their half of the field for 90 minutes trying to get to PK's.

/discussion

Like that would happen.You could solve that by having extra time sudden death then PK's that force you to use different kickers each time also limiting it to sudden death (5 kicks each) after that the first score wins the second team doesn't get a shot. Pretty much soccer's version of how the NFL overtime rules work.

By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game.

hyper aggressive after 90 minutes of a soccer match? again, go back to my examples of the 2010 and 2014 world cup finals. the players were exhausted to the point half of them were not even crossing half field. the players have just run 90 minutes straight in excess of 8+ miles (midfielders and wingers are nearing 12-15 miles by the 90th minute)

extra times in the world cup are golden goal. it doesnt change the soccer that is played. its like saying if a marathon was tied at the end, just go ahead and run another 10k to sort it out

The World Cup has different substitution and roster rules. Those can and are changed all the time, it's pretty amazing how the game changes if you have a few more players to a roster and allow for more substitution or even unlimited substitution.

The goal here is not to be exactly like the Europeans but to make the game popular in America, we don't like ties or inconclusive results.

 

[Uncle Si]

no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century

 

[Uncle Si]

What was the ridiculous situation again? That both teams know how the aggregate system works before the playoffs start?

Ridiculous is playing til 4:00am with players dropping like flies due to exhaustion or injury because you don't like PK's or away goal weighted aggregate score.

You can't have it both ways, you either go to an overtime + PK's system, or away goal aggregate.........and every owner, GM, ,manager and player on the planet prefers the away goal aggregate system for tournament style soccer because it's the most fair and doesn't give the lesser opponent the opportunity to just play on their half of the field for 90 minutes trying to get to PK's.

/discussion

Like that would happen.You could solve that by having extra time sudden death then PK's that force you to use different kickers each time also limiting it to sudden death (5 kicks each) after that the first score wins the second team doesn't get a shot. Pretty much soccer's version of how the NFL overtime rules work.

By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game.

hyper aggressive after 90 minutes of a soccer match? again, go back to my examples of the 2010 and 2014 world cup finals. the players were exhausted to the point half of them were not even crossing half field. the players have just run 90 minutes straight in excess of 8+ miles (midfielders and wingers are nearing 12-15 miles by the 90th minute)

extra times in the world cup are golden goal. it doesnt change the soccer that is played. its like saying if a marathon was tied at the end, just go ahead and run another 10k to sort it out

The World Cup has different substitution and roster rules. Those can and are changed all the time, it's pretty amazing how the game changes if you have a few more players to a roster and allow for more substitution or even unlimited substitution.

no the rules are not different. yes you can add more players to your roster (rosters are expanded due to the length of the tournament and the fact that training and game injuries in a foreign location would make it difficult to get home players to the tournament, plus the experience i imagine is awesome for the players).

however, the substitutions are the exact same in every major soccer competition and league across the world. every team gets 3. once you're out you're out. that rule is not in any danger of changing

you can add more subs, but then you are changing the entire complexity of the event

and whats this "we" stuff? you? America? the goal "here" is for the MLS (and soccer) to establish itself as a major sporting attraction in the US. it has gone a long way to doing that, probably alot more than you can imagine. it has gotten as far as it has because of the Bacelona's, Madrids, Liverpools, Uniteds, Ronaldos, Messis, etc. and will continue to mirror what European leagues due to attract fans that love the game for what it is (better) somewhere else

 

[MizzouHawkGal]

no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century

Good luck with that. It's a dumb rule and nothing you've said alters that fact. You're whole argument is everybody else does it so we should even though you know not even THEY like the process but they're too hidebound to use sudden death in soccer because it goes against tradition. Big deal so does football and guess what? It's pretty damned popular itself.

 

[Uncle Si]

no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century

Good luck with that. It's a dumb rule and nothing you've said alters that fact. You're whole argument is everybody else does it so we should even though you know not even THEY like the process but they're too hidebound to use sudden death in soccer because it goes against tradition. Big deal so does football and guess what? It's pretty damned popular itself.

this actually makes no sense. nothing ive said alters your perception of it, but thankfully your perception of the format (and soccer) is one not shared by very many. but its pretty much reflective of your whole take on this. youve been shown stepping on your own ignorance a few times and have yet to respond. (including the notion that sudden death doesnt exist in sports, or that overtime soccer is completely opposite of the league table formats every league uses... honestly, you told me not to "tell you about soccer" but you really dont seem to understand it much. which is fine. but a few people are trying to extoll the virtues of a set up and how it benefits the game and you try and tell us it needs to be more "American"... sweet, lets put on some some Toby Keith, shoot some guns and drive some g-d d--n trucks while we're at it)


youre honestly wishing away the success of the league because it carries on traditions from its predecessors, one being a rule you dont like

umm.. yeah, good luck with that. we get it, you dont like the rule.

 

[dumbrabbit]

no, it would be like the CFL caring what the NFL does. (because European football is massively more popular and improved than the "Americanized" version). Soccer is international. you dont change it because a handful of fans are a bit too lazy to pick up on some of the different rules.

the MLS is still a niche league. dont let the home crowds in Seattle fool you. they are expanding and rebranding, but their popularity is due more in fact to the popularity of the sport due to the European leagues than any of the MLS teams. Most (to all) American soccer fans are also fans of major European teams. The MLS realizes this, knows they need to compete with that product constantly. they want the league to reflect many of the same principles that the rest of the world has embraced for over a century

Good luck with that. It's a dumb rule and nothing you've said alters that fact. You're whole argument is everybody else does it so we should even though you know not even THEY like the process but they're too hidebound to use sudden death in soccer because it goes against tradition. Big deal so does football and guess what? It's pretty damned popular itself.

this actually makes no sense. nothing ive said alters your perception of it, but thanfully youre perception of the format (and soccer) is one not shared by very many. but its pretty much reflective of your whole take on this. youve been shown stepping on your own ignorance a few times and have yet to respond. (including the notion that sudden death doesnt exist in sports, or that overtime soccer is completely opposite of the league table formats every league uses... honestly, you told me not to "tell you about soccer" but you really dont seem to understand it much. which is fine. but a few people are trying to extoll the virtues of a set up and how it benefits the game and you try and tell us it needs to be more "American"... sweet, lets put on some some Toby Keith, shoot some guns and drive some g-d d--n trucks while we're at it)


youre honestly wishing away the success of the league because it carries on traditions from its predecessors, one being a rule you dont like

umm.. yeah, good luck with that. we get it, you dont like the rule.

So apparently our opinion means nothing now? Why does MLS have to go with what other leagues use? It's a dumb rule. Play extra time, then PKs. I don't see how an aggregate draw equals a win for one team.

Just because other soccer leagues use it doesn't mean that MLS has to.

 

[Uncle Si]

bit naive, no? who is "our"? again, your opinion isnt the majority. The MLS adopted these rules. many of the fans on this board have defended it. these rules have made perfect sense to soccer fans, players and coaches for a long time.

the fact you dont like them doesnt mean the rest of the world is holding you hostage. you say its dumb. i disagree. (although, again, i dont think it fits the MLS. but the rule i do like). none of our opinions matter. if you are trying to speak for the majority of MLS fans i think you'd find yourself in a short line.

but again (answered in another post) it makes perfect sense for the MLS to follow the structure of other leagues as much as possible. they are trying to build something here on top of the popularity of the sport. The sports popularity is due to the popularity of the European leagues and its players. Im not sure why that argument is hard to understand.

The MLS stands alone in a couple things (scheduling time frame, promotion/relegation) and even those are under scrutiny.

 

[hawkfan68]

I believe they just started to use the away goal rule this season. MLS first season of play was in 1996. So for 18 years they didn't use the rule. They made this change for 2014 post-season. It is what it is and even though I don't like the rule, it seems here to stay.

If injuries are the reason to use this rule, then why even bother having playoffs. Just let the top teams in each conference play each other for the championship. After 34 games, it should be easy to determine who the two best teams were by the table (total points).

If MLS is trying to gain audience in the United States, then rule goes against what would help them do just that. There's no reason to catch the first game in the series because it doesn't mean much when there are two matches. I like soccer so I tuned in. But a lot of people probably tuned out or will tune out because of the way the Seattle- Dallas series ended and how the Seattle- LA Galaxy series ended.

 

[Uncle Si]

I believe they just started to use the away goal rule this season. MLS first season of play was in 1996. So for 18 years they didn't use the rule. They made this change for 2014 post-season. It is what it is and even though I don't like the rule, it seems here to stay.

If injuries are the reason to use this rule, then why even bother having playoffs. Just let the top teams in each conference play each other for the championship. After 34 games, it should be easy to determine who the two best teams were by the table (total points).

now you're talking. I'd love to do away with the whole stupid playoff and just use the table. (not very "American" but...). wouldnt even mind a championship game from it (although I'd prefer just first place).

Injuries are not the reason, but one of a handful of reasons why soccer organizations have tried to limit extra time opportunities as much as possible. and while the MLS has been in existance for some time, its playoff format has changed considerably, and very much so recently. the aggregate system, for example, came about in 2012. away goals do not limit extra time either, only add a dynamic to the aggregate scoring system.

anyways, my opinions have been done to death. i like it. i dont feel like the Sounders got cheated. (if anything, iid prefer to do away with conferences and playoffs). i believe it is inherent on the success of this league to mimic foreign leagues as much as they find possible. those leagues have been massively successful for decades and are right now making billions. the MLS seems to believe it and have made several changes (not just in playoffs but from grassroots level up)

 

[Sgt. Largent]

By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game..

Not true though. Last stat I saw was over 75% of overtime matches go to PK's.......which again for the 20th time is what everyone involved wants to avoid.

You can have your own opinion, but the soccer world has spoken, and not the fans or media, the owners, GM's, manager and players........and they all prefer the away goal aggregate method to overtime, sudden death or PK's.

THAT'S why it is how it is in all these global tournaments like the Champions League (and now MLS playoffs), because those who play the sport at the highest level want it that way. If they didn't, it'd change. Plain and simple.

 

[dumbrabbit]

By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game..

Not true though. Last stat I saw was over 75% of overtime matches go to PK's.......which again for the 20th time is what everyone involved wants to avoid.

You can have your own opinion, but the soccer world has spoken, and not the fans or media, the owners, GM's, manager and players........and they all prefer the away goal aggregate method to overtime, sudden death or PK's.

THAT'S why it is how it is in all these global tournaments like the Champions League (and now MLS playoffs), because those who play the sport at the highest level want it that way. If they didn't, it'd change. Plain and simple.

Again, your only argument is that the rest of the world does it.

My opinion won't change, my Sounders love won't change either way.

 

[Uncle Si]

So post after post detailing the benefits of the system as well as why the MLS benefits by mimicking European leagues and My only argument still is "that other leagues do it?" Shocker.

reading isn't your friend. Really don't expect your opinion to change, which is sad as its misguided apparently because your team lost. I adore your "my love for the Sounders" quip at the end, as if all of those supporting away goals just hate the Sounders.

 

[dumbrabbit]

Done with this discussion. Sounders lost. Galaxy won. Always next year. It'll be interesting who they pick up this offseason.

 

[TestMo1337]

Question, what was thr format before aggregate away goels being worth more?

What would happened if after the two aggregate games it was 0-0?

Curious because i was not aware of the changes they make to the MLS playoff format.

 

[Uncle Si]

Question, what was thr format before aggregate away goels being worth more?

What would happened if after the two aggregate games it was 0-0?

Curious because i was not aware of the changes they make to the MLS playoff format.

if its 0-0 it goes to extra time (actually happens alot in the CL) really any time the aggregate scoring and away goals are the same it is extra time. they changed to aggregate scoring in 2008 (best I can tell) and adopted the away goal rule in 2014. the format before 2014 was just aggregate scoring. before 2008 it was just one game playoffs? the number of teams has increased since 2012 and will again next year. (which begs the question of "why bother")

the purpose of the rule, above all is else (and there are a handful of reasons), is to increase scoring. Smurf is quite certain that it opened up play in this years MLS playoffs. He watches alot more MLS games than I do so i'd trust him.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

By having extra time be sudden death you will likely skip PK's entirely because both teams will be hyper aggressive because first goal wins end of game..

Not true though. Last stat I saw was over 75% of overtime matches go to PK's.......which again for the 20th time is what everyone involved wants to avoid.

You can have your own opinion, but the soccer world has spoken, and not the fans or media, the owners, GM's, manager and players........and they all prefer the away goal aggregate method to overtime, sudden death or PK's.

THAT'S why it is how it is in all these global tournaments like the Champions League (and now MLS playoffs), because those who play the sport at the highest level want it that way. If they didn't, it'd change. Plain and simple.

Again, your only argument is that the rest of the world does it.

My opinion won't change, my Sounders love won't change either way.

You only want to understand half the equation, because if you admit you understand the entire equation you'd have to admit you're wrong.

Yes the rest of the world does it, but they do it because it's a better and fairer system that every league, owner, GM, manager and player on the planet agrees upon.

Why are you arguing for a solution that no one inside the world of soccer wants to see?

 

[dumbrabbit]

It's just my opinion, man. We all have opinions. I say MLS should do away with the rule, you say it shouldn't.

Why should an aggregate draw equal a win for one team? Just play 30 more minutes and then PKs. Or just make the series a one game, winner take all.

FC Dallas got screwed by the away goal. Now Seattle got screwed by the goal. Is the Galaxy really the best team in the Western Conference?

If there was no away goal rule, I'm certain Dallas would be in the MLS Cup final, or they would have lost by one goal to their opponent in the conference championship. What's so bad about 30 more minutes of playing time? The World Cup adds playing time for draws at the end of regulation, don't they? They have a playoff system just like the MLS does. Why can't MLS do it?

 

[Uncle Si]

they are not getting "screwed" by it. its not as if the rule only exists for one team. had Seattle or Dallas scored then it would have benefitted them.

Soccer wants to avoid extra time. as i have said, it is very taxing on the players and the product becomes very subpar. Last year's CL final was an aberration, with 3 goals in E.T. The last two World Cup finals have gone to extra time and have been dire to watch.

I understand your frustration, but I feel its only because it hurt your favorite team, and that sort of clouds your evaluation of it.
The World Cup is different than the MLS playoffs. They add extra time because they are playing a one game playoff, not a two legged tie. the two are not comparable. If you want to go back to a one game format than sure. The World Cup also does not have E.T. in their preliminary rounds, so its clear. They play for 3 points or one. Only when its knockout is ET and PKs an option. I literally do not know one person who wants anything to be decided by pens

 

[Sgt. Largent]

The World Cup adds playing time for draws at the end of regulation, don't they? They have a playoff system just like the MLS does. Why can't MLS do it?

Not in the group stage, only in the knockout rounds................and the MLS does have overtime and PK's for it's championship game.

It really is funny that some of you guys prefer overtime and PK's to aggregate, you literally are the ONLY people I know that like PK's. It's a ridiculous way of settling matches, and it's only done because soccer players can't run for four hours straight trying to settle a match. They'd all be in ambulances.