Serious- Has the shine wore off on Russ?

[Sgt. Largent]

We did it when Wilson marched us to the wildcard game.

Baldwin was in the slot and Wilson was putting up gaudy numbers then. He was getting the ball out quickly. He wasn't scrambling much at all.

For some reason, we abandoned it in the playoffs, (Carolina promptly killed us because of that), but for almost a full season he was throwing the ball quickly, using his slot receiver, throwing plenty of TDs, and not relying on his ability to scramble.

I don't know I believe it is a thing he is limited or cannot do. He threw slants just fine then.

Admittedly, that was the best I have ever seen Wilson and it only got us to the WC game (which we won because of a lucky missed kick) but he showed he can do all of the quick passes. I don't know why Carroll decided to try to turn him into the 2nd coming of Rex Grossman but that was later.

It's a lot of things.

- terrible O-line play the past 2-3 years has created some bad habits, happy feet, bailing for no reason cause he thinks he's about to get killed, not trusting his reads, confidence may be shaky at times.

- Cable and Bevell effect, not really buying into the schemes and playcalling, and fostering those scramble and make a sure throw over trusting the playcall

- lack of consistent run game making it easier for Russ to do what he does best, play action. Obviously much harder to be successful passing when the defense knows you have to pass because it's ALWAYS 3rd and 9.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

We did it when Wilson marched us to the wildcard game.

Baldwin was in the slot and Wilson was putting up gaudy numbers then. He was getting the ball out quickly. He wasn't scrambling much at all.

For some reason, we abandoned it in the playoffs, (Carolina promptly killed us because of that), but for almost a full season he was throwing the ball quickly, using his slot receiver, throwing plenty of TDs, and not relying on his ability to scramble.

I don't know I believe it is a thing he is limited or cannot do. He threw slants just fine then.

Admittedly, that was the best I have ever seen Wilson and it only got us to the WC game (which we won because of a lucky missed kick) but he showed he can do all of the quick passes. I don't know why Carroll decided to try to turn him into the 2nd coming of Rex Grossman but that was later.

It's a lot of things.

- terrible O-line play the past 2-3 years has created some bad habits, happy feet, bailing for no reason cause he thinks he's about to get killed, not trusting his reads, confidence may be shaky at times.

- Cable and Bevell effect, not really buying into the schemes and playcalling, and fostering those scramble and make a sure throw over trusting the playcall

He was doing this in his very first game.

 

[mrt144]

People are frustrated with Russ because of his lack of progress as a passer in my opinion, or at least I am. He has shown glimpses of improvement and then regression. I see people always default to "ITS THE O LINES FAULT" which, yes they have not always been the best. That being said, you cannot hold onto the ball for 3+ seconds and expect anything but pressure to come out of it in most cases. Wilson doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough. The one season he did we had 2015. How quickly the quarterback gets rid of the ball is very important.

Consider this, the year Brady was out due to injury in 2008, Matt Cassell stepped in. He had the same offensive coordinator, same line, same receivers. He was sacked 47 times that year. Patriot fans were complaining about their line regressing after the 2007 season. Brady was sacked behind that very same line 21 times the year prior. Cassell was the more mobile QB, so what gives? It all has to do with recognizing what the defense is trying to do to you, exploiting it, and getting the ball out of your hand quickly. In 2009, the year after Cassell, the Pats O-line only gave up 16 sacks.

Our line is never going to look good the with Russell's style, no matter how many picks we invest in it.

Maybe there should be a couple games this season where the entire playbook is short passes, over and over and over again, until RW gets it right. Straightjacket him into those exact throws and see if it takes at all.

That's what I've been hoping for ever since the O-Line was an issue. With the new coaching changes, i think it's glaringly obvious it's a Pete and/or RW mentality. Full routes or nothing. I do wonder if the height issue is real. However Brees is only an inch taller. Is the inch all the difference in the world? or does Brees just trust his receivers and throws blind and RW will not?

Does it make me a football boob to think that purposefully doing this would not be a big deal and could actually help everyone involved? I've never coached football, only played it, but I imagine presenting it as a constraining challenge to the team could be really a fun way to couch it and take the edge off of the results, good or bad.

 

[zetes]

I have noticed on twitter, and other social media sites that Russ has been getting slammed lately. Even people in public who would defend him have now put the blame on him. Its crazy how people have turned on him and im honestly baffled. Was his shine from the team winning and his charm but now has worn off? Is it his off field issues(celeb now, articles leaking) or is it just on field?

Russ i really enjoy watching. I think he is very good and seems like a good person but obviously I dont know him. I have him as a Top 5 QB in the league but some people think he is 10-15 range. I personally think its his personality that rubs people the wrong way. I think this causes more issues then his "performance" . It sucks to see this because the same people who are ripping into him will miss him when he is gone.

I just feel like less people like him then before and thats from personal experience. The Seahawks fans i follow on twitter that loved russ are now saying he might be over rated and might be the issue. It just isnt a couple people either.

So i am asking my fellow Seahawks fans on this board, do you believe the shine has wore off on russ?

1. Never use "Twitter" as a real reflection of the "general public" -- it is a place to vent and for instant reaction which will be extreme in both joy and disappointment. When the Seahawks were dominating in previous years, I would guess the "Church of Russ" would have been extremely loud. Now that the Seahawks are in a "reset" and there will most likely be more "disappointing losses" then I expect on Twitter there will be more extreme "Russ IS the PROBLEM!"

2. I think the Seahawks could have won that game and they made a lot of mistakes (as did the Broncos I'm sure) - in hindsight I think we shouldn't be that surprised considering the Seahawks and their openers especially on the road.

3. As QB, Russ will deserve the blame and also the credit in most of the Seahawk games this year. Remember the whole "Brady is finished" hype a few years ago when Patriots started slow.

Z.

 

[Shanegotyou11]

I have noticed on twitter, and other social media sites that Russ has been getting slammed lately. Even people in public who would defend him have now put the blame on him. Its crazy how people have turned on him and im honestly baffled. Was his shine from the team winning and his charm but now has worn off? Is it his off field issues(celeb now, articles leaking) or is it just on field?

Russ i really enjoy watching. I think he is very good and seems like a good person but obviously I dont know him. I have him as a Top 5 QB in the league but some people think he is 10-15 range. I personally think its his personality that rubs people the wrong way. I think this causes more issues then his "performance" . It sucks to see this because the same people who are ripping into him will miss him when he is gone.

I just feel like less people like him then before and thats from personal experience. The Seahawks fans i follow on twitter that loved russ are now saying he might be over rated and might be the issue. It just isnt a couple people either.

So i am asking my fellow Seahawks fans on this board, do you believe the shine has wore off on russ?

1. Never use "Twitter" as a real reflection of the "general public" -- it is a place to vent and for instant reaction which will be extreme in both joy and disappointment. When the Seahawks were dominating in previous years, I would guess the "Church of Russ" would have been extremely loud. Now that the Seahawks are in a "reset" and there will most likely be more "disappointing losses" then I expect on Twitter there will be more extreme "Russ IS the PROBLEM!"

2. I think the Seahawks could have won that game and they made a lot of mistakes (as did the Broncos I'm sure) - in hindsight I think we shouldn't be that surprised considering the Seahawks and their openers especially on the road.

3. As QB, Russ will deserve the blame and also the credit in most of the Seahawk games this year. Remember the whole "Brady is finished" hype a few years ago when Patriots started slow.

Z.

Also people in public settings as well.

 

[Northwest Seahawk]

He can't get the ball out quickly because he's undersized and can't see the field as well as a proto QB . When he and Lynch were running the RO this didn't matter as much but those days are over. Not saying he's not a good QB he is but he has some serious flaws in his game. There I said it flame suit on.

 

[Spin Doctor]

People are frustrated with Russ because of his lack of progress as a passer in my opinion, or at least I am. He has shown glimpses of improvement and then regression. I see people always default to "ITS THE O LINES FAULT" which, yes they have not always been the best. That being said, you cannot hold onto the ball for 3+ seconds and expect anything but pressure to come out of it in most cases. Wilson doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough. The one season he did we had 2015. How quickly the quarterback gets rid of the ball is very important.

Consider this, the year Brady was out due to injury in 2008, Matt Cassell stepped in. He had the same offensive coordinator, same line, same receivers. He was sacked 47 times that year. Patriot fans were complaining about their line regressing after the 2007 season. Brady was sacked behind that very same line 21 times the year prior. Cassell was the more mobile QB, so what gives? It all has to do with recognizing what the defense is trying to do to you, exploiting it, and getting the ball out of your hand quickly. In 2009, the year after Cassell, the Pats O-line only gave up 16 sacks.

Our line is never going to look good the with Russell's style, no matter how many picks we invest in it.

Maybe there should be a couple games this season where the entire playbook is short passes, over and over and over again, until RW gets it right. Straightjacket him into those exact throws and see if it takes at all.

It isn't just the lack of short passes that are an issue, it is the fact that Russell Wilson is very hesitant. He is late on throws more often than he is not. He doesn't seem to trust his skill receivers very much unless they clearly have one or two steps on the defender. His timing and rhythm as a passer just isn't there. He relies, and thrives on chaos. Part of me also wonders how good he is at orchestrating presnap reads. Much of what a quarterback does is at the LOS. I don't see him directing, and changing plays up very often with audibles.

Honestly I think Russ's biggest problem is Pete. What Pete preaches is to limit turnovers above all else, and our playbooks reflect that. We don't like short passes over the middle like slants, and most of our deep routes are very safe. This is a great style for a young, new QB to the NFL, but there is no reason to be running it with veteran QB's such as Hasselbeck and Russell Wilson. It creates stagnation, and hesitation. Pete is quite literally treating his quarterback like he is in his first year. I'm seeing this trend among all the offensive coordinators here. This isn't a Bates, Bevell or Schottenheimer problem, it is a Pete problem.

Pete needs to relinquish control of the offense to his staff, and his franchise QB, but I don't think that is ever going to happen. The one year we had a typical NFL offense with a varied attack, Russell Wilson was consistent, and had an MVP worthy season (2015).

 

[pmedic920]

“Preparation is the Separation”

The quote may sound corny but I buy it 100%.
I think it was a very real thing for Russ.



I’d bet he’s not spending the same amount of time preparing.
Don’t see how he could be to be honest.

 

[rjdriver]

He does need to abandon the backwards spin from his game. That isn’t fooling anyone any more.

Absolutely agree.

I remember watching the Amazon version of Hard Knocks where the Cowboys are preparing to play Seattle. Sean Lee in the film room was describing to the his defense Russell’s back spin move and how to play it. It appears opposing defensive players rush and take angles knowing that Russ is going to spin back out. Sacks are bad enough. Sacks for 22 yard losses are unrecoverable.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Pmedic,

The writing was on the wall on that one.

But anyone with an SO and/or kids cannot devote the amount of time Wilson was committing.

What he was doing was unsustainable. Period. We all heard the stories and we all thought it was crazy even back then.

I do believe his preparation has suffered and I do believe that his outside business ventures and PR/branding efforts have contributed heavily to that issue. That part is fixable IF he chooses to fix it.

He repeated 'The Separation is in the Preparation' and his decision-making in those early games was incredible. His INT #s were low, he put the ball where he needed and he could throw on the run like nobody else.

You cannot convince me those years are never coming back.

But a lot of the umbrage the defensive stars had about Wilson's commitment (in the leaks), seem to have had some very valid reasons for existing.

He does not need to be an Elite QB for this team to be pretty damned good. But he does need to be committed.

But treating him like an elite QB, instead of scheming to his strengths like a 'system QB' gets treated, hurts him and the team's chances. You can be very very good without being Elite. You can work with what you have and still find a way to make it work.

But trying to work with what you don't have? That is a recipe for failure.

 

[Jville]

Not to hump Popeye's leg but I think he has had Russell nailed better than anyone with his high-variability analysis for quite some time.

Thanks, dude. :2thumbs:

If it's any consolation, a lot of 9ers fan HATE this argument, and are like "nah, he just sucks, man."

He doesn't even remotely suck. I first started watching the Hawks more regularly during Wilson's first year b/c he reminded me of my favorite player: Steve Young. He's still, I think, kinda like a more high variance Steve Young (albeit Wilson is IMO a better pure passer than Young, and maybe not as good on some of the other stuff as Young).

I find the high-variability analysis thoughtful and very useful as well. I'd be interested in any perceived effect of high variability quarterbacks on the play of their offensive linemen and accompanying public perception of those linemen.

Thanks for your forum contributions.

 

[chris98251]

Well Wilson isn't going to change where he goes and how he scrambles, that all instinct and reaction, he really doesn't sit there and say, hmm I think I am going to do a double fake backwards curl roll right cross over left move up ten yards back 12 yards and then right again and spin left then throw the ball move.

Secondly concerning how the Fans Team and thus Pete holds him accountable, I am pretty sure he is a good guy, but his interests are more then football, his brand so to speak has always been more important, thus his image as well. Earl got crap for telling Dallas to come get me. Russell is New York Yankee property and went and did a propaganda and marketing blitz for them. I am pretty sure that he is never going to play in the Majors at 29, but he still leverages it, Subtle and different from Earls approach. We also have nobody in the wings to take over for him really, a contract coming up, 35 million probably on the table at least. He is considering his options even now, New York the Jets or Giants depending could have interest. Giants mostly because they have more a complete team that will make him look good.


Those of you that remember Ken Griffey Jr about this time in his career can relate to the special treatment syndrome, it divided that locker room also, plus Wilson comes off as a politician now and many see it as phony in a lot of ways.That irritates fans and media types.


Winning covers a lot of pet peeves and problems, when your not winning as much or falling short for what ever reason those pet peeves become sores and if left to fester wounds.

I think thats where we are at, the sores are being bandaged right now with new OC, DC, O line coach etc to help with winning, Wilson being given the crown here now has to win, if not we will see a unravelling, still not sure Pete and John are going to pay 35 million or so a year for a QB that can't carry a team by himself, but Wilson has tried to create options for himself I think, New York is also a pretty good place for his wife to continue her career and marketing.


Putting it all together thats a lot of balls in the air to deal with one Russell Wilson for the team to be aware of and try to handle, hoping to keep the issues out of the media is a big job alone, just think of all the damage control done in house the last few years and going forward.


Then there is his play, how to coach him, correct issues, adapt.

 

[rcaido]

I like his backspin and never quit play...That's why we love Wilson. Cant work all the time, Ifedi was just bad against one of the best didn't help the situation at all. They should have put another player to help.

 

[scutterhawk]

I agree with the highlighted comment. I disagree that it effects his contract and salary talks. The sample size over time says yesterday was more the exception than the rule. Wilson has always struggled against top 3 D lines. The Rams should have taught us this by now.

You're right, it won't, but it should.

This is the NFL, top 10 QB's get paid........and even mediocre ones like Cousins get paid. Just the nature of how important the position is.

This is just me venting on yesterday's game. If we're going to do anything this year, these are the kinds of games Russell needs to take over and win...........and he didn't.

Yet no threads on defense getting shredded all day long by Keenum? Wilson should have been better no doubt, but bailing on Dissly and the running game, and the defense getting eaten alive by 7 yard gains all day is hardly mentioned here? Why??

Because I expect our defense to be mediocre at best this year, I did not expect Russell to go in the tank the last two drives.

This is how it's going to be ALL year with the defense, so you can blame them all you want but your expectations should go no further than what we saw yesterday.

D-line is thin, LB corp is thin and DB's are thin. That's why IMO this season's success or failure is on Russell and the offense. If he can pull games out like yesterday? We've got a chance to win 9-10 games.

If he doesn't? We're in trouble, cause you're gonna WISH for Case Keenum once we start playing good QB's.

And because of the sour ass Offensive Line, the Run Game is still a shit show, O-Line Quarterback protection is a freaking joke, and Wilson still throws over 300 yards, and all the while, he has Von Miller in his face....We lose an away game by three got-damned points, and the cryers come out of the woodwork ukeface:

 

[lobohawk]

Wilson will always have the “yeah, but” associated with him.

For example, Brady, Brees, etc lead the league in TD passes and the next season every time that qb is discussed, they preface that he led the league. Whereas with Wilson, it’s almost like they forget and add it to the end of the discussion, if at all.

 

[hawkfannj]

Let's start 33 threads about how Russ is somehow done, old and slow. He had an off game, the entire TEAM lost this game.

It’s awesome when your QB plays poorly and still throws for 300 yards and 3 TDs and keeps your team within 3 points from winning

Just imagine if he would step up in the pocket and actually throw it instead of running into sacks . We probably be much better I’m thinking wouldn’t need the constant heroics .

 

[xray]

For two days I read in here that the Denver defense made Wilson look bad. It's true they did,but if Wilson and the offense he runs only look good against weak defenses then they are in serious trouble. The defenses across the NFL are all pretty good. Wilson has peaked about two years ago. If anything he may have regressed some. The elite QBs are Brady-Rodgers-Brees-Rivers. All still playing at levels at or better than ever. I don't see Wilson in that conversation.

 

[semiahmoo]

For two days I read in here that the Denver defense made Wilson look bad. It's true they did,but if Wilson and the offense he runs only look good against weak defenses then they are in serious trouble. The defenses across the NFL are all pretty good. Wilson has peaked about two years ago. If anything he may have regressed some. The elite QBs are Brady-Rodgers-Brees-Rivers. All still playing at levels at or better than ever. I don't see Wilson in that conversation.

And you're right. Wilson peaked when had an all-world defense and a legit run game. He was never capable of carrying a team through an entire season. For a quarter-comeback yes, but not game to game.

The more he's been expected to carry the team the fewer games the Seahawks win. That's fact.

That SB win seems like it was a long-long time ago these days...

 

[oldhawkfan]

He does need to abandon the backwards spin from his game. That isn’t fooling anyone any more.

Absolutely agree.

I remember watching the Amazon version of Hard Knocks where the Cowboys are preparing to play Seattle. Sean Lee in the film room was describing to the his defense Russell’s back spin move and how to play it. It appears opposing defensive players rush and take angles knowing that Russ is going to spin back out. Sacks are bad enough. Sacks for 22 yard losses are unrecoverable.

His spin move has become fairly predictable. He almost always spins to his left towards the right side of the field. In Sunday’s game he did this right into the waiting arms of Miller. If he’s going to continue to do his scrambling spinning ways, he’s gonna have to mix it up and not be so predictable in his choreographed scramble drill. Early on, no one knew where he was going to be or what he was going to do. Now all the defenders need to do is hold their ground essentially and wait for him to do that move.

As supposedly cerebral as Russ seems to be in his preparation, I’m surprised he hasn’t figured this out.

 

[semiahmoo]

He does need to abandon the backwards spin from his game. That isn’t fooling anyone any more.

Absolutely agree.

I remember watching the Amazon version of Hard Knocks where the Cowboys are preparing to play Seattle. Sean Lee in the film room was describing to the his defense Russell’s back spin move and how to play it. It appears opposing defensive players rush and take angles knowing that Russ is going to spin back out. Sacks are bad enough. Sacks for 22 yard losses are unrecoverable.

His spin move has become fairly predictable. He almost always spins to his left towards the right side of the field. In Sunday’s game he did this right into the waiting arms of Miller. If he’s going to continue to do his scrambling spinning ways, he’s gonna have to mix it up and not be so predictable in his choreographed scramble drill. Early on, no one knew where he was going to be or what he was going to do. Now all the defenders need to do is hold their ground essentially and wait for him to do that move.

As supposedly cerebral as Russ seems to be in his preparation, I’m surprised he hasn’t figured this out.

And that's a huge point being made. The league has been wise to Wilson for the last couple seasons at least. They don't fear his arm and they now only fear somewhat his scramble ability which appears greatly diminished.

The only immediate way to counter this is to establish a legit run game which we haven't had since Beastmode days and for a short time, Rawls.

RW cannot carry this team as a legit playoff threat. He just can't. He's not that good. Granted, very few would be but we either continue paying him crazy $$$ for more seasons of mediocrity or we hit reset and start over.

I'm for starting over. That's what brought us the SB years. We can do it again.