Seattle Sounders 2016 season thread

Uncle Si

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Read through the DP list of MLS players. Tell me that those clubs don't foresee that players in their mid 30s won't be on the field for a good portion of their games. And, Dempsey is not "healthy"

You telling me that I, with one google search, came to this information but these MLS clubs went into their seasons expecting these DP players to be a factor in the majority of their games? The clubs are all just coming to the realization now? Robbie Keane played in 23 of 34 MLS games in 2015. They still brought him back. That's barely 75%. Worth the investment in another year?

No. They made the investment on aging super star players because even off the field they offer value. There is no way the Galaxy expected Gerrard to play a whole season as CM. Or Drogba. Or Kaka. Etc.

(The outlier is Pirlo)

And don't suppose you know why I'm making this point. I like Dempsey as a player. One of American's greatest. I'd like to see the league start changing its valuation of players away from guys who should be playing in "legends" games in major leagues across the world and start focusing more on bringing in real talent. Dallas and Chicago are doing that. I'm sure others (without looking much further). Point is, it appears as though many MLS teams target DP players with the assumption they will not be available (for whatever reason) for 1/4 of their season or more. The statistics on that list bare that.

The Sounders have a chance here to upgrade their lineup. But, if they "rely" on Dempsey as a starter they will just be trying to fill his empty spot more often than not. I'm not "OK with him being on the roster"... it's not my team. My point is the MLS doesn't always invest its money in players wholly on game production.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Lol, I've notice you get very defensive Si when discussing soccer. So feisty!

Here's the list of DP's, not one was signed or kept on the roster to be a permanent late game sub.

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/d ... ed-players

If those players fell into that role, like our very own Nelson Valdez did this year? It's because of nagging or serious injuries that kept that player from being a 70-80 minute player............and again those players like Valdez, are gone from those rosters cause you can't use up valuable DP slots on a 20 minute a match player.

Now maybe Dempsey starts the season as a late game sub working his way back into the starting 11? That's a possibility. But ain't no way in hell he or the club is OK with going another year or two with that being his permanent role.
 

Uncle Si

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Sgt. Largent":3mq83vdz said:
Lol, I've notice you get very defensive Si when discussing soccer. So feisty!

Here's the list of DP's, not one was signed or kept on the roster to be a permanent late game sub.

http://pressbox.mlssoccer.com/content/d ... ed-players

If those players fell into that role, like our very own Nelson Valdez did this year? It's because of nagging or serious injuries that kept that player from being a 70-80 minute player............and again those players like Valdez, are gone from those rosters cause you can't use up valuable DP slots on a 20 minute a match player.

Now maybe Dempsey starts the season as a late game sub working his way back into the starting 11? That's a possibility. But ain't no way in hell he or the club is OK with going another year or two with that being his permanent role.

Not feisty or defensive at all.... trust me. I love talking about the game. I just feel like you're missing a pretty simple point or skipping over it for reasons I don't really understand. I notice you do it alot, really.

That list of players shows how unreliable players over the age of 30 were to their teams, which is the point. Guys in their 30s get nagging injuries. You're telling me that all those MLS clubs just hoped those players would come through without issue... but only Pirlo did? So, either this is a very, very new realization and the league is just becoming aware of it (older guys get hurt)... or those clubs took that risk on those older players knowing full well that their impact on the field would not be over the course of the entire season. Or... just go look at the list of DP players from 2015, see how many were over 30, how many games they played. It's not rocket science.

I'm not sure why you are struggling to see this. It's pure business and has been a part of the MLS for some time now. MLS teams certainly do invest big money on big named players understanding they are taking a major risk with their play on the field but see value in their name off it. The MLS operates very differently than other major leagues in this way.

So... if Dempsey is back with the Sounders next year and they expect him to play 30 of 34 matches that would simply be naive and detrimental to the club. He only played in 20 games in 2015.
 

Sgt. Largent

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The entire crux of this discussion Si was you saying if we keep Dempsey, he shouldn't be in the starting 11.

So maybe I'm confused as to what you meant by that. If you meant that means he and the Sounders are just fine with him being a late game sub for the rest of his career like Valdez did most of the year? You're dead wrong, neither side would be OK with that.

If you meant what I said above, that Dempsey shouldn't be in the starting 11 until he's healthy and fit enough to start? Then I agree with you, and that's a very real possibility.

But any long term scenario where Dempsey is on this club for the sole purpose of spot starting and coming on late as some sort of super sub, and taking up a DP slot? Not happening.
 

Uncle Si

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Sgt. Largent":ql4qma2s said:
The entire crux of this discussion Si was you saying if we keep Dempsey, he shouldn't be in the starting 11.

So maybe I'm confused as to what you meant by that. If you meant that means he and the Sounders are just fine with him being a late game sub for the rest of his career like Valdez did most of the year? You're dead wrong, neither side would be OK with that.

If you meant what I said above, that Dempsey shouldn't be in the starting 11 until he's healthy and fit enough to start? Then I agree with you, and that's a very real possibility.

But any long term scenario where Dempsey is on this club for the sole purpose of spot starting and coming on late as some sort of super sub, and taking up a DP slot? Not happening.

I'm not speaking for what the Sounders would do. This is my opinion on what they should do. What I am saying is that the Sounders should not bring Dempsey back and rely on him to be in the starting 11. As the list you linked, and his last two years with the Sounders both indicate, its a major risk. Would he start some games? Sure. Does that mean they cut him? No, of course not. It means you go and find the player that will make the impact for your team in that position. Again, I like what Dallas did with their DP slots. I'd love to see Seattle do something similar. You can invest in Dempsey the player/marketing icon and still invest in great young talent.

If Seattle has decided to bring Dempsey back and expect more than 20 games from him I would say they are taking a massive risk that ignores basic trends.

And really, I wouldn't care if I'm a Sounders fan. If they want to spend DP money on one of not only Seattle's but America's best players ever than awesome. I'd buy a jersey. But if they don't find a real #11/8/9 to pair with Lodeiro and Morris and hope its Dempsey throughout the season I'd say that's mistake.

I hope this makes sense. The MLS operates on two levels when it comes to player valuation.
 

Sgt. Largent

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I gotcha, and I tend to agree.

But we now have an open DP slot with Valdez gone. So I think what's going to happen is as long as Dempsey is cleared by January or February to start training then we give him another year to get right and get back on the pitch.

Without that DP slot, I think we'd move on because it's too valuable to spend on an unknown like Dempsey.

As we saw this year, this club can still compete without him, especially with another DP coming in here and hopefully contributing far more than Valdez did.

So there's no need to be rash with Dempsey, if he's cleared, let him prove he can still play.
 

Uncle Si

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Sgt. Largent":z6v5x7kk said:
I gotcha, and I tend to agree.

But we now have an open DP slot with Valdez gone. So I think what's going to happen is as long as Dempsey is cleared by January or February to start training then we give him another year to get right and get back on the pitch.

Without that DP slot, I think we'd move on because it's too valuable to spend on an unknown like Dempsey.

As we saw this year, this club can still compete without him, especially with another DP coming in here and hopefully contributing far more than Valdez did.

So there's no need to be rash with Dempsey, if he's cleared, let him prove he can still play.

This is going in my signature line...

None of what I'm saying was a dig on Dempsey. Personally, I would not rely on Dempsey for a major role on the team and actively try and find a player much like him but much younger (the 25 year old Dempsey). But I also don't think that means you let him go. Look no further than Drogba's impact this year. I think he started less than 20 games for Montreal.
 

Glasgow Seahawk

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Tyrone Mears, Kovar and Fisher weren't at the parade.

Kovar is on trial in Scotland with Hibernian.

Make what you will about the other two.
 
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SeatownJay

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Seattle is apparently showing interest in Colombian winger/striker Victor Ibarbo. Below is a highlight video.

[youtube]ah6A_e1HQDc[/youtube]
 

Uncle Si

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SeatownJay":tgcuapn8 said:
Seattle is apparently showing interest in Colombian winger/striker Victor Ibarbo. Below is a highlight video.

That's more like it....

This is the type of player the MLS needs.
 

knownone

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Uncle Si":z4rhvy16 said:
Sgt. Largent":z4rhvy16 said:
The entire crux of this discussion Si was you saying if we keep Dempsey, he shouldn't be in the starting 11.

So maybe I'm confused as to what you meant by that. If you meant that means he and the Sounders are just fine with him being a late game sub for the rest of his career like Valdez did most of the year? You're dead wrong, neither side would be OK with that.

If you meant what I said above, that Dempsey shouldn't be in the starting 11 until he's healthy and fit enough to start? Then I agree with you, and that's a very real possibility.

But any long term scenario where Dempsey is on this club for the sole purpose of spot starting and coming on late as some sort of super sub, and taking up a DP slot? Not happening.

I'm not speaking for what the Sounders would do. This is my opinion on what they should do. What I am saying is that the Sounders should not bring Dempsey back and rely on him to be in the starting 11. As the list you linked, and his last two years with the Sounders both indicate, its a major risk. Would he start some games? Sure. Does that mean they cut him? No, of course not. It means you go and find the player that will make the impact for your team in that position. Again, I like what Dallas did with their DP slots. I'd love to see Seattle do something similar. You can invest in Dempsey the player/marketing icon and still invest in great young talent.

If Seattle has decided to bring Dempsey back and expect more than 20 games from him I would say they are taking a massive risk that ignores basic trends.

And really, I wouldn't care if I'm a Sounders fan. If they want to spend DP money on one of not only Seattle's but America's best players ever than awesome. I'd buy a jersey. But if they don't find a real #11/8/9 to pair with Lodeiro and Morris and hope its Dempsey throughout the season I'd say that's mistake.

I hope this makes sense. The MLS operates on two levels when it comes to player valuation.
This is sort of a weird conversation given that Seattle signed Dempsey knowing full well he'd start around 20 games a year, given the whole USMNT thing. It's even sillier to rely on "trends" of looking at GP to deduce whether or not aging DPs start more or fewer games than their younger counterparts because of injury, especially when you throw in big name DPs who often times won't play on turf, which skews much of the data you are using to base these assumptions. Also, 1 year is not an accurate representation of the data, For instance, Dempsey missed a lot of 2015 games due to suspension and USMNT duty. Also, there is very little data that show older players are more injury prone than younger players, and in the case of Dempsey who was sidelined by an irregular heartbeat, which wasn't preventing him from playing at a high level, but is merely a symptom that may or may not be associated with a career-ending heart condition, we can safely assume that if he's cleared to play, the irregular heartbeat will have 0 affect on his ability to perform for the Sounders. Now, given that Dempsey was the second best offensive threat the Sounders had by a wide margin last year, I think it's fair to say the Sounders can rely on him as contributor moving forward and not just a publicity generator. So if the Sounders expect a healthy Clint next season, it's reasonable to expect him to be in your starting 11 and rely on him to be what he's been every year he's been a Sounder.

In other words, there really aren't basic trends supporting your argument that haven't already been there since Dempsey became a Sounder. So why bother to bring up Dempsey at all? You already said you want a young DP like Dallas and Seattle has a DP spot open and by all accounts is looking to add one or two allocation players as well which fills all of your starting 11 needs and then some...
 

Uncle Si

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It's silly to use statistics to formulate an opinion? Odd coming from you. Also, you are simply reiterating my point while trying to turn strangely against what I am saying. I'd suggest just looking at the number of games that DP players over the age of 30 actually played this past season is pretty good data. But knock yourself out.

If Seattle signed Dempsey "knowing full well he'd only start around 20 games" as you say then that just adds to my point... which was simple: Don't sign Dempsey and rely him to be in your starting 11. I never said you shouldn't sign him. I never said it had anything to do with injury. I just said they should be looking for a player that can contribute season long to that role. So again, you are just reiterating my point. I also find it odd that you can "safely assume" anything about a 33 year old's health. If he was cleared to play after a knee injury would you still not be concerned about another knee injury? Interesting way to evaluate players.

Point was this: Don't rely on a 33 year old with an injury history (or without, because old guys get hurt or wear down, as the evidence that you think is silly actually suggests) to be in your Starting 11. Ensure you have a proper player to be there. But that does not mean you should not sign him. The MLS actually signs these types of players alot, and for a variety of reasons, which again was my point. Sgt. said the Sounders would never sign a DP player to only play 20 games. You just said they will. So who are you debating?
 

Sgt. Largent

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SeatownJay":3e0bcd5u said:
Seattle is apparently showing interest in Colombian winger/striker Victor Ibarbo. Below is a highlight video.

[youtube]ah6A_e1HQDc[/youtube]

They listened!

Perfect big body winger type that would fit in well in MLS and what we need on this club with the departure of Valdez.

I never get too excited about DP rumors, as 90% of them never come true, but I like the type of player we're targeting.
 

Uncle Si

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Sgt. Largent":21nibyuu said:
SeatownJay":21nibyuu said:
Seattle is apparently showing interest in Colombian winger/striker Victor Ibarbo. Below is a highlight video.

They listened!

Perfect big body winger type that would fit in well in MLS and what we need on this club with the departure of Valdez.

I never get too excited about DP rumors, as 90% of them never come true, but I like the type of player we're targeting.


More than his physical stature, he has the pedigree and is at that age where a stint in the MLS may bring out more in his game then his time in the European leagues had done.

Again, like the idea of players like this coming to the MLS
 

knownone

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Glasgow Seahawk":21awyo9d said:
Tyrone Mears, Kovar and Fisher weren't at the parade.

Kovar is on trial in Scotland with Hibernian.

Make what you will about the other two.
Mears was at the parade.
 

Sgt. Largent

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Uncle Si":18h719j4 said:
Sgt. Largent":18h719j4 said:
SeatownJay":18h719j4 said:
Seattle is apparently showing interest in Colombian winger/striker Victor Ibarbo. Below is a highlight video.

They listened!

Perfect big body winger type that would fit in well in MLS and what we need on this club with the departure of Valdez.

I never get too excited about DP rumors, as 90% of them never come true, but I like the type of player we're targeting.


More than his physical stature, he has the pedigree and is at that age where a stint in the MLS may bring out more in his game then his time in the European leagues had done.

Again, like the idea of players like this coming to the MLS

Yep. Young (26), can play both wings, but can also play a Jozy Altidore target forward position as well.

Here's his profile, looks like he's currently on loan from his Columbian club to a Greek club, and loan fee projection has dropped since he arrived in Greece, so maybe the perfect time to go after him.

http://www.transfermarkt.com/victor-iba ... eler/92141
 
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