Sean Payton Was Toxic in Denver, Not Russell Wilson?

Ozzy

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Ignoring what? Denver's starting offensive line missed a combined total of one game. Their starting RB missed one game. Starting receivers? 6 combined games. What stands out about their injuries relative to any other team?

I watched Denver, too, and came to a wildly different conclusion. So did the NFL, apparently, since they weren't exactly kicking Wilson's door down to sign him on a vet minimum.
He’s a guy at the end of his career. Of course teams are going to spend an arm in a leg on a guy like that does that correlate to him being unable to run an offense and have success for a decade? You’ve made it obvious you hate Wilson. I think it clouded your judgment. Maybe I’m wrong.
 

Ozzy

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Anyway I’m not immune to bias here either. I do hold Russ in high regard for the good times we had with him and I think he was a special player at the most important position in the sport. I hated how it all ended and he deserved a huge portion of the blame. But I think there is a lot of revisionist history involved with Russ because people hate him. It is what it is. He earned it to some degree but man that was an awesome decade and I wish everyone could remember it that way. I can’t stand Sherman’s end either and he drives me more nuts than Wilson but I also think he was the best player from that team and I remember him that way.

I’m rambling as I sit and wait for the doctor and this debate has gone in circles for months now. It’s still fun at times because we all keep jumping back in lol.
 

BASF

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I'm trying to imagine how it's possible to cherry-pick so well that Wilson ends up in the top five in the league more than twice in his career, and how to put him among the top two QBs in the league in any single season. Even in the 2015 season, when Newton won the MVP, while it's true Wilson was clearly better than Newton, both Dalton and Palmer were even better. Wilson absolutely would have deserved the MVP if he'd performed in the first half of 2015 like he did in the magical second half, but he didn't, so while Newton winning was really stupid, both Dalton and especially Palmer have better reasons to be upset about it than Wilson has.

Wilson did a lot more as quarterback than any other player in Seahawks history, but he's still a long way from the Hall of Fame.

If Wilson were as great as his fans still believe he is, why would an NFL team take an all-time record $85M dead-money hit -- $53M in 2024 and $32M in 2025 -- to get away from him at a time when the cap is $255M?
Most Valuable Player is not the best passing stats award. Newton, when you add in his rushing stats, was far more valuable than either QB you bring up. He had nine more touchdowns than Palmer and seventeen more than Dalton. A lot of Stewart's success as a runner that season had to do with the RPO because of Newton. Also, his best WR was pathetic Ted Ginn Jr. whose 10 touchdowns that season was the same amount he had his previous eight seasons combined. When your team goes 15-1 and your offense is based on one player literally driving the pass and run, he is the MVP.

Edit to add, Wilson led a ten and six team with better weapons than Newton had and Newton had thirty-five passing touchdowns while Wilson had a total of thirty-five rushing and passing. I know that people are Me3 marks, but arguing that he deserved the MVP over Newton hardly holds water.
 
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Scout

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Tomlin is all about defense and with the offense being able to move the chains anyway possible. RW and new offensive coordinator Arthur Smith will incorporate a lot of boot legs, play action, movement, etc to the offense to move the sticks. And they will grind yards with Harris, Warren and Patterson.

But the Steelers aggressively revamped their WR unit to be more agile and also aggressively upgraded their OL. The Steelers are definitely going to be a misdirection, grind it out offense. So, Wilson could find success in such an offense where it is not about making hard reads but putting pressure on defenses with speed and misdirection.
 

Ozzy

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Tomlin is all about defense and with the offense being able to move the chains anyway possible. RW and new offensive coordinator Arthur Smith will incorporate a lot of boot legs, play action, movement, etc to the offense to move the sticks. And they will grind yards with Harris, Warren and Patterson.

But the Steelers aggressively revamped their WR unit to be more agile and also aggressively upgraded their OL. The Steelers are definitely going to be a misdirection, grind it out offense. So, Wilson could find success in such an offense where it is not about making hard reads but putting pressure on defenses with speed and misdirection.
I agree. If he fails miserably here he’s done. I think it’s a good spot for him to do some things and Tomlinbis fine with that style has Big Ben was similar to Russ in a lot of ways
 

SuperSonic67

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Ignoring what? Denver's starting offensive line missed a combined total of one game. Their starting RB missed one game. Starting receivers? 6 combined games. What stands out about their injuries relative to any other team?

I watched Denver, too, and came to a wildly different conclusion. So did the NFL, apparently, since they weren't exactly kicking Wilson's door down to sign him on a vet minimum.
Great post and point…2 teams interested in him at the VET MINIMUM. I’ll take the talent evaluators in the NFL over the posters on a Fan site.

I mean what are we even debating lol…it’s over. We benefited from his best years
 

rcaido

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Most Valuable Player is not the best passing stats award. Newton, when you add in his rushing stats, was far more valuable than either QB you bring up. He had nine more touchdowns than Palmer and seventeen more than Dalton. A lot of Stewart's success as a runner that season had to do with the RPO because of Newton. Also, his best WR was pathetic Ted Ginn Jr. whose 10 touchdowns that season was the same amount he had his previous eight seasons. When your team goes 15-1 and your offense is based on one player literally driving the pass and run, he is the MVP.

Edit to add, Wilson led a ten and six team with better weapons than Newton had and Newton had thirty-five passing touchdowns while Wilson had a total of thirty-five rushing and passing. I know that people are Me3 marks, but arguing that he deserved the MVP over Newton hardly holds water.

Wasn't the reason why Wilson didn't get MVP the other years because he didn't finish strong? Well in 2015, he set the NFL record for the 2nd half. They also went 8-2. I think its pretty debatable about the weapons too. Wilson was working w/ Bevell & Cable. There was no Lynch. First year w/ Graham and he got injured. Locket was injured half the season. This was also Baldwins best year, he had 14Tds. Previously he had 15td total in 4 seasons.

The Panthers defense also had a lot of takeaways that season. They led the NFL w/ 39 compared to the Seahawks who had 23. Cam had his safety blanket w/ Olsen a top 3 TE at the time. Stewart/Newton read option was deadly. I know you all knock Wilson's QBR all the time but Newton didn't even finish top 10 w/ his MVP.

Someone mention Dalton. WTF, he had 25tds 7int 3250yrds how is that even come close to be better then Wilson who 68% completion, 4000+ yards 34tds & 8int, not to mention 500+ rushing.
 

flv2

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Multiple teams were, or would have been, interested in Wilson at vet minimum. Wilson was only interested in teams that had a vacancy at QB1. This was a highly unusual offseason for QB1 vacancies. None of the top QBs retired after 2023 and there were 6 highly touted QB1 prospects in the Draft.
 

Scout

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I agree. If he fails miserably here he’s done. I think it’s a good spot for him to do some things and Tomlinbis fine with that style has Big Ben was similar to Russ in a lot of ways
SP has coached many QBs to 3000 passing yards from QBs that are statues to those that are uber agile and other a mix of both. RW did a lot better last season under SP tutelage but it wasn't going to work out. This is because SP probably felt that RW with the money he was making hit his peak in that style of offense. That is why SP decided to go in another direction for a QB more suited for his offense.

But in the end Wilson is closer to a sand lot playing style and that is okay with the Steelers organization because they want the offense to move the football and play field position which is complimentary football to help out their defense.

Arthur Smith had Mariota, Tannehill and Redder to work with and has shown he will find a way to move the ball. But having even RW in his twilight of his career is an upgrade over what Arthur Smith has worked with in the past. Mariotta and Ridder struggled pushing the downfield while that is RW forte. Tannehill a very streaky player and laser accurate when he wants to be. But RW is more consistent than Tannehill when it comes to hitting those outs on boundaries and downfield seems.

Arthur Smith likes to utilize TEs a lot in his offense but with RW he can use the TEs to challenge the deep seems due to RW accuracy and throwing strength downfield.

And the Steelers added WRs that have the jets and speed to run go routes from play action.

Don't be surprised if Wilson looks even better than last year in this style of offense.
 

flv2

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Tannehill was a good quality player in 2019 and 2020. Sure, Arthur Smith was a big factor in Tannehill's resurgence. I don't believe the Wilson of 2024 is better than the Tannehill of those seasons.
 

Scout

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Tannehill was a good quality player in 2019 and 2020. Sure, Arthur Smith was a big factor in Tannehill's resurgence. I don't believe the Wilson of 2024 is better than the Tannehill of those seasons.
It is hard to say with Tannehill because of Derrick Henry had monster production during those years. Similar situation with RW and Mershawn Lynch.

Play action is critical for players like Tannehill and RW and it is hard to say how they would function outside of that structure. Mayfield was in that camp too because he had Chubbs in Cleveland. But this past season Mayfield was on the dead last rushing offense (Bucs finished 32nd overall) and Mayfield still put up respectable numbers in the passing game.

You never know until a player is asked to do things outside of their comfort zone. RW simply isn't that QB so going back to that structure that Arthur Smith provides will yield him better results.
 

Palmegranite

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That's a good theory to put forward, but Oh man, wrongo. (I do agree about Tannehill. He didn't win a lot of games with the Phins)
Russell Wilson continued to have excellent results and stats in the 5+ years following M.L's departure. And the Seahawks continued to win a mitt full of games.
 

Ozzy

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One of Wilson’s best years was when we had the worst rushing attack in the league and he literally scored all but a couple of our teams touchdowns.
 

hawkfan68

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One of Wilson’s best years was when we had the worst rushing attack in the league and he literally scored all but a couple of our teams touchdowns.
I believe you are referring to 2016 season. This was the one where RW got injured (right ankle) in week 1 game vs Dolphins and played through his injury. He didn't miss any games. He threw for 4219 yards, comp pct of 64.7% that season and had a lack of running game to help him. The Seahawk rbs hat season were Christine Michael (leading rusher), Rawls, Alex Collins, etc.

What he did and does in Denver and Pittsburgh has no bearing on what he did for Seahawks. He was a solid QB for the most part in Seattle. If it was all LOB they would have been better than 7-9 with TJack 2011 because most of the core LOB was there that season. Once Russ came in the next season, that 7-9 turned into 11-5 and divisional round playoffs (his rookie year). Russ outplayed Flynn and Tjack to "earn" the starting job his rookie season. Most who are criticizing him now were extremely quiet during the 2012-2019 seasons.
 
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Scout

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That's a good theory to put forward, but Oh man, wrongo. (I do agree about Tannehill. He didn't win a lot of games with the Phins)
Russell Wilson continued to have excellent results and stats in the 5+ years following M.L's departure. And the Seahawks continued to win a mitt full of games.
Yeah but the team was spinning their wheels at that point and the defense started to decline. Rule changes were a factor as well that impacted the defense.

While an over simplification the truth is that some QBs really need a running game to really take it to the next level. RW isn't going to single handedly carry teams to playoff win with "Let Russ Cook" passing game.

Tannehill is in a similar boat as well as Mayfield.

It doesn't mean these QBs can't escape that narrative because anything is possible. Look at Goff's transformation from being a called a system QB to what he is now.

The reason why RW is not highly regarded as a passing QB is because he doesn't have signature playoff wins without ML and the Legion of boom.

Brees took a long time to escape that narrative and many other QBs (eg Chris Chandler). It wasn't just the shoulder injury that had teams shy away from Brees in free agency. Tomlinson being a workhorse cast doubt about Brees' ceiling as a QB.

Until a QB can disprove certain narratives it will carry on for years or even decades.
 

SeAhAwKeR4life

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You know I think all of Payton's success was Brees. I betcha he does another two to three years in Denver, with maybe ONE wildcard appearance and be done.

That said, I think the Stealers is the ideal place for Wilson to make SP look stupid by being in an offense that is a much better fit.
 

morgulon1

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You don't have the success he had for a decade and be as bad as you guys say he is at reading defenses. You don't have top 3 stats in almost every significant category for ALL TIME if you can't read a defense. I would agree it wasn't the strength of his game. He relied on his athletic ability and being able to create off script but that's ok Big Ben made a pretty good career playing in a similar fashion, Lamar Jackson does fairly well too. Very few guys excell in that area because its really hard to do.

Your argument makes it sound like you believe Geno is better than Russ was at his best and no offense but I think that is a wild take. Russ last year in what everyone is calling a laughing stock was still better than Geno. I think Geno does have different strengths than Russ and it makes a conventional offense much easier. I don't think he is a master of reading defenses either as evident by his lack of success in the red zone the past couple of years. He's not seen multiple touchdowns in that area. But this isn't to say Geno is bad. He is a good QB too I'm just going to go with the idea that he was better than Russ.

I also think its a little unfair to say because he failed with Hackett(who by all accounts was terrible) and Payton when he's at the end of his career. Seems unfair to judge him in his mid 30's as if he's always been that way.

I don't agree that Russ had a very unique skill set and it probably was a challenge in some regards. He was never going to run a Brady, Brees style offense. But those guys couldn't do what he could do either. People forget that Russ also played with a bad OLine, not a ton of weapons and when the offense stalled(it wasn't always Wilsons fault) he was one of the few guys in the league who could still make something happen when nothing else was working and no one could get open. I think you're having some liberty with the idea "the blocking was there and WR were open" Early in WIlsons career we had a terrible line. People who are anti-Russ assume it was all him and at times he definitely played a massive part but we lead the league or were near the top in instant pressures for multiple years. That isn't a Russ issue, that was Cable and the Pete trying to spend money elsewhere and patch together a line. We were really, really bad for multiple years. The year Russ had 98% of our touchdowns or whatever was a historically bad offensive line who couldnt run block either as we had one of the worst rushing offenses. Russ had to carry that offense and he did.

I also understand why Payton, with Russ in his mid 30's would want someone who is more conventional. I also don't fault him for being frustrated with the style Russ needs to succeed with. He is limited in many ways as a unique player and Payton has never ran an offense with that type of QB.

Russ is far from perfect but I will always argue prime Russ was one of the very best and most dangerous QB's in the league and the numbers and wins prove that. This doesn't have to be personal either, we just disagree and that's ok. I do understand a lot of the criticism towards Russ, its just in my humble opinion I think people flat out hate the guy and it bleeds into their argument and they talk themselves into the idea that Russ was worse than he was. He was literally second to Rogers in almost every category in history during his run, that is pretty good for a guy who can't read a defense or hit a wide open receiver.

Again we all view things a little differently and that's what makes sports fun. I think we're all rooting for Geno and the Seahawks at this point so any Russ stuff is just fun to talk about as it was a great time in our history that we all enjoyed. If I had a mission statement it would be you can root like hell that Russ fails miserably the rest of his career because of how he left and how he handled things but we can also at the same time remember when it was good and respect what he accomplished during his time. I guess you could look at it as "the dude struggled in many ways you wan't a QB to excell in but inspite of that was able to have massive succes" and when you think about it its actually a cool story. Just a different way to look at it I guess.

My last post on the topic as I don't want to be John63 part 2 lol.
Damn nice post .

I think I've gone through all the stages since #3 left . My anger seemed to hang in longer than it probably should've . He did have a lot of issues , which makes his success more entertaining. I don't wish for his failure .
 

SuperSonic67

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Between SP and RW, only one of them was suspended by the NFL for putting bounties on injuries to opposing players. That pretty much defines a prick and a piece of shit. I've seen nothing to change that opinion.
You’re not wrong…
 

fenderbender123

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Between SP and RW, only one of them was suspended by the NFL for putting bounties on injuries to opposing players. That pretty much defines a prick and a piece of shit. I've seen nothing to change that opinion.

To me that defines a winner. A coach willing to win at any cost. Hope Macdonald is like that, but just doesn't get caught.
 
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