Sean Payton Was Toxic in Denver, Not Russell Wilson?

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toffee

toffee

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Yeah, that clearly was on Russ :rolleyes:
I know most hate the guy, and that's fine, but they did him dirty in Denver. Shoot, I have several friends who spend much of their lives blasting Russ, and MOST of them are even siding with Satan Wilson. That says it all, imo. Peyton is a known prick/p.o.s.

Wilson may be a SOB, but hey, he is our SOB.
 

Torc

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There's a note at the start of the article "Originally posted on Steelers Now". Their first quote is from a pittsburgh reporter. The other is from "an AFC personnel executive". It'd be more believable from a Denver reporter or someone closer to the situation.

Sounds like a PR effort either from the Stealers or the Me3 team.
 

BlueTalon

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This last sentence tells me exactly how laughably off base this article is:

"The reports out of Denver that Wilson was out of touch and an elitist seem to have been unfounded."
You caught that too? I don't know who the hell Chris Ward is, but he has a steep learning curve ahead of him. Methinks Ward paid no attention to what those reports actually reported, and paid very little attention to what was actually happening in Denver.

I don't know Wilson personally, but I know of few people more conscious of their own brand than him. I get the feeling that he went into Denver thinking he was deserving of everything he asked for because he needed it to cook. Then he got it all, then faceplanted, then got humiliated and got read the riot act, then got booted. Then, my feeling continues, he went to Pittstink, and now is presenting himself not as someone who has learned his lesson and is now a changed man, but as someone who was the way he is presenting himself now all along. Because that's his brand now.

If Tomlin is as non-confrontational with Russ as Hackett was, I predict it's only a matter of time before the inevitable conflict leaks out on the sideline among teammates, the way it did in Denver. After a few times of not seeing a wide open receiver, or dancing his way into a sack and then insinuating the line could have blocked better, we're going to see a few fireworks.
 

chrispy

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1)RCW fell out of favor with Pete Carroll. He didn't work with Nathaniel Hackett. It didn't work with Sean Payton. Three years, three coaches, three failures... and one was handpicked by Wilson himself. At some point, it's not every coach that can't coach him. To whom is Mike Tomlin most similar? I've seen him get upset on the sidelines. I've also read that he prides himself as a teacher. I really don't know but he'll have to be different than Pete, Nate and Sean for everything to magically work out. What does Mike Tomlin have that those other 3 coaches don't have? Real question here... i don't know.

2)Payton was out of line with his treatment of RCW ...if... we know everything that happened behind the scenes. But we don't. There are plenty of scenarios where a coach has run out of tools and the only way to reach a player is to call him out publicly. Maybe Payton was unfair as the article indicates. Or maybe he tried everything else and it was the last thing he could possibly do to motivate a player that was unable or unwilling to do certain things. Maybe it was Sean Payton really giving him a last chance and trying to get through that his positivity doesn't reflect his negative contribution. I could envision a scenario where every time Payton gave advice/instruction/criticism he was met with "That's great, you're great, we're great, it's going to be great... Broncos, Let's Ride" ... and he had to try something different.

3)If I was a beat reporter in Pittsburgh and needed access to the team and players, I'd be playing up every aspect I could think of to stay in their good graces every off season. I definitely wouldn't be calling out the starting QB before the season.

on the other hand...

4)Many have surmised that RCW has been humbled and will return to the form of his youth with a vengeance. That would answer #1 above... Tomlin has a better, more coachable, RCW. I wonder, however, is RCW more humbled today than he was after the loss in Seattle in his first game as a Bronco? ...more than costing his head coach his job? ... more than going viral over sandwiches, 4x4Trucks, bathrooms and high knees instead of his play? ...more than getting benched over an injury clause because there was no hope he was going to keep his job. Maybe he is. He should be. If he's not now, he never will be. I guess we'll all find out.
 

SoulfishHawk

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Haven't given it much thought overall. He's been gone for over 2 years. That being said, go everyone who plays Denver.
The Seahawks are the only team that matters. To me at least.
 
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GemCity

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I don’t think the issue was mutually exclusive. Russ was full of himself and SP was/is an asshole.

I don’t have the same animosity I once had when Russ was in Denver. As fans, we had every reason to hope for their demise.

As there’s no real benefit to seeing Denver for Pitt fail this year, I’ve paid less and less attention to both the team (Denver) and player (Wilson).

However, it will be interesting to see how Russ responds. The last few years have been a total nightmare for him. Either the ego has been crushed a bit and he bounces back or it’s truly time for him to hang it up.

SP on the other hand, his asshole vibe is too strong for me to ever wish him success.
 

Ozzy

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Sean Payton probably was toxic. He's that sort of guy—a straight shooter who doesn't care about optics or office politics. I have zero doubts that he entered that locker room looking to challenge Russ. He took over a team with a QB on a bloated contract who'd underperformed and done everything imaginable to put himself above the team (private office, staff, media, etc...). Unfortunately, Russ was the perfect target for Payton to send a message to the rest of the team. And look, if Russ had performed, he could have flipped the script and proven Payton wrong. Aaron Rodgers did that in his last couple of years in GB. Russ didn't. He was, at best, mediocre.

I dont think this is all wrong but I would argue Russ did perform fairly well especially considering he just wasn't a fit in that type of offense. His numbers were decent even though he had injuries all over the offense, no running game and multiple receivers missing time. I also think its fair to understand why Payton wanted Wilson gone who just isn't capable of running that type of offense in a consistent manner. I think people are going to be shocked that Wilson does much better in Pitt because Tomlin's team/offense did well with Roeth who is a lot like Russ in extending plays and not necessarily running a quick timing type offense.

I'm probably one of the only ones but I hope Russ does well in Pittsburg and Payton struggles a little bit post Wilson because of how he handled it.
 

Ozzy

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I don’t think the issue was mutually exclusive. Russ was full of himself and SP was/is an asshole.

I don’t have the same animosity I once had when Russ was in Denver. As fans, we had every reason to hope for their demise.

As there’s no real benefit to seeing Denver for Pitt fail this year, I’ve paid less and less attention to both the team (Denver) and player (Wilson).

However, it will be interesting to see how Russ responds. The last few years have been a total nightmare for him. Either the ego has been crushed a bit and he bounces back or it’s truly time for him to hang it up.

SP on the other hand, his asshole vibe is too strong for me to ever wish him success.
I think Tomlin is a good coach/system for Russ so I'm guessing he has a resurgence if there is anything left in the tank.
 

Aircrew

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I disagree with the statement that you highlighted in bold, at least as far as being an 'elitist'. The fact that Russell had his own special privileges not afforded to any of his teammates, i.e. his own office, his own coaches, et al, proves that he was being afforded special treatment, in other words, an elitist. I also agree with the rest of your statement, that there was a reason, more than just an inability to adapt to a head coach's' style, that the Broncos opted to move on.

There's no doubt in my mind that Payton was toxic, that for whatever reason, he didn't get along with Russell Wilson and that some of his actions were unprofessional and driven by a personal dislike.
I don't know the man, but I think he's just an old school football coach who has expectations of his players and holds them accountable. It surprises me a little bit that some of us, if not most, have forgotten what football coaches were once like. Sean Payton is a disciple of the Bill Parcells coaching tree, one of my all time favorite coaches, btw. Parcells was legendary for how hard he was on his players, especially the quarterback, like Phil Simms. Yet, to this day, all of them speak about Bill with such reverence. It's easy nowdays to describe Sean Payton as "toxic", but when you look back, he's just a football coach who's a product of a coaching style that produced some of the best teams, players and coaches in NFL history. This short video captures some of that, I especially like the end:

 
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From the perspective of the Broncos' ownership, I would assume their plan A was Payton's system would help Wilson and together carry the team to the promised land. plan B may be to take the bitter pill of ridding Wilson, yet Payton alone carries the team to the promised land.

Now, they are on plan B, how much time will they give Payton? What if Wilson and the Steelers go to the payoff and Broncos couldn't?
 

BlueTalon

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From the perspective of the Broncos' ownership, I would assume their plan A was Payton's system would help Wilson and together carry the team to the promised land. plan B may be to take the bitter pill of ridding Wilson, yet Payton alone carries the team to the promised land.

Now, they are on plan B, how much time will they give Payton? What if Wilson and the Steelers go to the payoff and Broncos couldn't?
I think Broncos owners, even new as they are, are smart enough to understand what the disparity in money means on the field. The Rustbuckets have a many-tens-of-millions-of-dollars advantage over the Broncos this season, and that kind of money can buy a whole lot of non-QB improvements.

We'll see.
 

knownone

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I dont think this is all wrong but I would argue Russ did perform fairly well especially considering he just wasn't a fit in that type of offense. His numbers were decent even though he had injuries all over the offense, no running game and multiple receivers missing time. I also think its fair to understand why Payton wanted Wilson gone who just isn't capable of running that type of offense in a consistent manner. I think people are going to be shocked that Wilson does much better in Pitt because Tomlin's team/offense did well with Roeth who is a lot like Russ in extending plays and not necessarily running a quick timing type offense.

I'm probably one of the only ones but I hope Russ does well in Pittsburg and Payton struggles a little bit post Wilson because of how he handled it.
On the contrary, it's not wrong at all. Denver's offense was one of the worst in the league. You can rationalize why that was the case. But the fact is, Russ could have turned the tables on Payton with his performance and failed to do so.

It wouldn't surprise me if Russ performed better in Pittsburgh. He's essentially joining a playoff team on a vet minimum. It's the ideal situation for him to succeed because they don't need him to be anything special; they just need him to be better than (checks notes) Kenny Pickett. The shocking scenario would be him failing spectacularly and getting benched early in the season.
 

Ozzy

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On the contrary, it's not wrong at all. Denver's offense was one of the worst in the league. You can rationalize why that was the case. But the fact is, Russ could have turned the tables on Payton with his performance and failed to do so.

It wouldn't surprise me if Russ performed better in Pittsburgh. He's essentially joining a playoff team on a vet minimum. It's the ideal situation for him to succeed because they don't need him to be anything special; they just need him to be better than (checks notes) Kenny Pickett. The shocking scenario would be him failing spectacularly and getting benched early in the season.
I think it’s more nuanced than offense bad=Russ bad. They had the most injuries in the league on that side of the ball and Russ still had pretty good efficiency numbers. He wasn’t great but he wasn’t bad either. I get it people hate Russ but it wasn’t a catastrophe in Denver despite losing their running back,3 of their top 4 receivers and multiple lineman. So I’ll agree to disagree. I think some people have a bias that clouds them on Russ a little bit.
 

strohmin

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There's a note at the start of the article "Originally posted on Steelers Now". Their first quote is from a pittsburgh reporter. The other is from "an AFC personnel executive". It'd be more believable from a Denver reporter or someone closer to the situation.

Sounds like a PR effort either from the Stealers or the Me3 team.
Exactly, It sounds like bs until Russell goes and proves he can produce playoff wins now that he has everything he supposedly wanted.
 

keasley45

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1)RCW fell out of favor with Pete Carroll. He didn't work with Nathaniel Hackett. It didn't work with Sean Payton. Three years, three coaches, three failures... and one was handpicked by Wilson himself. At some point, it's not every coach that can't coach him. To whom is Mike Tomlin most similar? I've seen him get upset on the sidelines. I've also read that he prides himself as a teacher. I really don't know but he'll have to be different than Pete, Nate and Sean for everything to magically work out. What does Mike Tomlin have that those other 3 coaches don't have? Real question here... i don't know.

2)Payton was out of line with his treatment of RCW ...if... we know everything that happened behind the scenes. But we don't. There are plenty of scenarios where a coach has run out of tools and the only way to reach a player is to call him out publicly. Maybe Payton was unfair as the article indicates. Or maybe he tried everything else and it was the last thing he could possibly do to motivate a player that was unable or unwilling to do certain things. Maybe it was Sean Payton really giving him a last chance and trying to get through that his positivity doesn't reflect his negative contribution. I could envision a scenario where every time Payton gave advice/instruction/criticism he was met with "That's great, you're great, we're great, it's going to be great... Broncos, Let's Ride" ... and he had to try something different.

3)If I was a beat reporter in Pittsburgh and needed access to the team and players, I'd be playing up every aspect I could think of to stay in their good graces every off season. I definitely wouldn't be calling out the starting QB before the season.

on the other hand...

4)Many have surmised that RCW has been humbled and will return to the form of his youth with a vengeance. That would answer #1 above... Tomlin has a better, more coachable, RCW. I wonder, however, is RCW more humbled today than he was after the loss in Seattle in his first game as a Bronco? ...more than costing his head coach his job? ... more than going viral over sandwiches, 4x4Trucks, bathrooms and high knees instead of his play? ...more than getting benched over an injury clause because there was no hope he was going to keep his job. Maybe he is. He should be. If he's not now, he never will be. I guess we'll all find out.

Agree.

Peyton did what im sure the LOB circa 2014, 2015 WISH Pete had done.

Folks seem to not factor in that by all accounts, long before he landed in Denver, Russ wasnt held accoubtable for his poor play. Pete just reasoned his way around it and made the team... the 52 guys who WERE executing the plays properly (especially the 11 who had to constantly make up for mistakes on offense) go along with it. Whats worse, is not only was Russ not held accountable, but he actually stepped into a media spotlight that fell in love with his highlight reel (oft unnecessary heroics) and reasoned that HE was the savior of a team that frequentky required his unique skill.

That bred in Russ the hyper 'Me3' dilussional self image that Russ grew into and then wore like a pinstripe suit in Denver.

That is WORSE than elitist. People have to give a guy like A Rodgers berth to be a prick and 'elitist' because (and i hate admitting it) he is arguably one of the best 3 or 4 qbs to ever play the game. So when you hear about his absurd antics and 'holier than thou' behavior, you maybe throw up in your mouth a little bit, slam him, and move on. But you know WHY the dude thinks his poop dont stink. And if you try to take out your frustration with him on the field, chances are, he will rip you a nee one.

The dressing down of Russ or whatever you want to call it ... im sure it was a calculated critique by a SP of a guy who SHOULD have been a whole lot better than he was to be carrying himself the way he did. Forget his entourage of support personnel and constant flashing of his media profile card, Russ would never even say that he WAS actually struggling to run the offense and instead, fell right back into the praise he was given by the media on those occassions when he pulled a rabbit out of his hat and won a game or two. The media wanted to say 'Russ was back'. Russ embraced it. Peyton? He was the only one being honest when he'd comment that certain games shouldnt have had to come down to heroic plays, or that heroic plays werent sustainable... nor often even necessary. - Remember the critiques of Russ's film by guys like Warner, who summed up his play with the statement - playing qb shouldnt have to be so hard [as hard as Russ often made it look]? SP watched that reality everyday with Russ and he wouldnt stand for it. And his QB wouldnt admit it.

Im sure Peyton was no more pissed and beyond fed up with the denialism Russ held on to than Sherm, ET, ADB and the rest were 10 years ago. He just had the balls and the platform to express it and ultimately do something about it.

I think a better article would be one that speculates as to what might have been if Pete, rather than creating the monster that Russ became, dished out the tough love himself and held a young Russ's feet to the fire. Maybe Russ would have learned to play the position in a more complete way. Maybe the seeds of resentment and distrust on the part of those players who felt undervalued because their coach DIDNT stand up for what was right on the 2013/14 dynasty teams never sprout.

SP wasnt the villain. He was just the leader who was forced to overcorrect for 11 years of unchecked hubris on the part of his qb making a mess of a franchise he was charged with fixing.
 

Lagartixa

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Sean Payton probably was toxic. He's that sort of guy—a straight shooter who doesn't care about optics or office politics. I have zero doubts that he entered that locker room looking to challenge Russ. He took over a team with a QB on a bloated contract who'd underperformed and done everything imaginable to put himself above the team (private office, staff, media, etc...). Unfortunately, Russ was the perfect target for Payton to send a message to the rest of the team. And look, if Russ had performed, he could have flipped the script and proven Payton wrong. Aaron Rodgers did that in his last couple of years in GB. Russ didn't. He was, at best, mediocre.
[Boldface and color emphasis is mine]

This is a great point. Rodgers responded to the suggestions he was getting old and expensive in Green Bay by winning league-MVP awards at ages 37 and 38 (his third and fourth, which should give him four more MVP awards in his career than the number of MVP votes Wilson will get in his career - Wilson will retire tied with me at zero votes). In Denver, Wilson responded to the perception that he was old, entitled, overrated, and expensive by confirming every aspect of that perception. The contrast is stark. One is an all-time great quarterback and a sure-fire first-ballot Hall of Fame inductee. The other thinks he is an all-time great, but is actually a national laughingstock.
 
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