Seahawks at Niners 11/11...

[rcaido]

 

[Marvin49]

M'Kay,

Not gonna say he played WELL, but I dunno how you can watch the game and not see that the drops had a SIGNIFICANT impact on the game.

They were drive extenders. One was an INT that gave Seattle the ball near the 20 (Bourne). One would have given the 49ers a 1st and goal and they ended up settling for a FG (Bourne). Another would have been a HUGE completion over the middle with room to run (Samuel). One would have extended a drive at the beginning of the game (Goodwin). Two more would have been a huge 3rd down conversions (Pettis and Juszczyk).

Time and time again drops KILLED them last night.

Now, at the end of the game he certainly made some poor throws that LBs dropped. No defense of him there, but without the OTHER drops, they are never even in that position.

I take nothing away from Seattle. They deserved it more than SF did. ther eis no question...but don't sit here and tell me that the drops didn't have anything to do with it. They were HUGE.

The drops absolutely had an impact on the game, for sure, but that's a two sided coin. For instance, I could sit here and find examples of mistakes by the Hawks that would have changed the game as well. Like the fairly benign 50/50 penalty that negated Griffin's interception, or Metcalf's two huge first down drops, and his fumble on the two yard line, etc...

I think the Hawks played poorly on offense. I think Wilson had one of his worst games of the season and struggled for large stretches of the game. Most of our struggles were because the 49ers defense dominated our offensive line. Things could have gone better in certain aspects, absolutely, but at the end of the day, I place the onus on Wilson to get things done. Seriously, we were fortunate to come away with a win. Wilson's fumble for a touchdown and his INT in OT were game changing plays and largely on him. In spite of all the mistakes that were outside of his control, I still think Wilson still needed to play better. That's the burden of being the QB.

What I'm seeing from Niners fans (not necessarily you) seems like the opposite reaction. Instead of acknowledging he struggled, they are protecting him (or themselves) by blaming everything else that went wrong to justify his struggles. The offensive line, the receivers, injuries, etc... Those things are going to happen, and if your QB can't adapt through adversity, then he might not be who you think he is. That's more of generality than specifically relating to Jimmy.

I personally don't place much significance on one game to determine how good a QB a player is. I said way back in week 5 that I didn't know what to make of Jimmy G because we haven't seen what he can do when a defense takes away his running game and forces him to play from behind. I knew this game was coming eventually. No QB is immune to adversity for his entire career. From my perspective, this was an expected occurrence from a young QB on a great team, so much so that I predicted (roughly) what would happen in the prediction thread.

I think the Seahawks will slow down the Niners rushing attack and Jimmy G will move the ball up and down the field but fail to convert TDs consistently. This could be the Seahawks most productive day rushing the passer.

He got his first real test of playoff football and both he and the offense struggled. This is not an indictment on Garoppolo or the Niners chances. This a small bump in the road that Jimmy needs to experience and bounce back from in order to prove to himself that he belongs out there. These fairy-tales about drops and injuries are just things we tell ourselves to feel better about our chances. History doesn't care about young guys who drop passes, or players getting injured at inopportune times. History cares about outcomes, and ultimately, the Niners will only go as far as Jimmy takes them. The rest is just noise.

So I'd answer that two ways....

1) Mostly fair
2) I think your expectation is that regardless of the players around him, you expect the QB to succeed. Thats built by watching Wilson play day in and day out for a long time.

That ain't the way it works on all teams.

You are right, history won't tell that story, but it really doesn't matter what history says. Football isn't played in a history book. The FACTS are that on MULTIPLE occasions last night, Jimmy Garoppolo put the ball on receivers hands and they flat dropped it. Worse yet, on three occasions, the intended target knocked it into the air to get picked off or nearly so.

That IS on those receivers. That is NOT on Jimmy.

I keep reading that he "could have been picked off 5 times". Three of those passes were tipped into the air. How is that on Jimmy?

He did however make some poor throws independent of those passes. That's not even an argument and I'm not defending them. If you had seen Wilson passes getting knocked straight up into the air or dropped on crucial third downs as Niner fans did last night, you would be here making the EXACT same argument.

Now, does that mean I think that was the only factor? Not even a little bit. I'm not trying to absolve Jimmy of all responsibility. What I am saying is that its never quite as bad or quite as good as you think it is. This is a good example.

Being down Kittle and Sanders made a huge difference on the Niner performance. Now does that mean I think they win if those passes are caught? I can't say that because at that point its an entirely different game.

We get it Marv, nothing is Crapollo’s fault In your world, ever. #10 has never thrown a pick that was his fault in your mind. You make excuses for GQ like the excuses you made for the Kraepper. Keep polishing those turds and expecting them to turn into gold.

His tipped balls were because he was missing high, see inaccuracy.
Wagner and KJ Wright dropped balls that hit them squarely in the hands.

Jimmy will be Kraepper 2.0 minus the foot speed, and cannon for an arm. #10 has been exposed.

I get it Hernia, you are immune to nuance and are king of the straw man. You should work for Fox News.

Hey...I can do that too.

Jimmy G has no fatal flaws. Ya know how I know? He's still alive. I can be intentionally obtuse as well. It ain't hard.

As for missing high....he missed high ONCE on those three tipped balls and receiver got both hands on it. The other two were right on the receiver. Coming into the game, he had a 70% completion %. Maybe, just maybe, dropped passes had something to do with it.

 

[IndyHawk]

I saw two evenly matched teams playing a hard fought game. A few bounces one way or another, or a call here or not here and it could change a lot. Seahawks had two red zone turnovers otherwise it would have been higher scoring. 49ers had turnovers in their own side of the field which led to 21 points. Calls favoured the 49ers. Some questionable calls . 49ers had the edge on defense coming in but Clowney played his best game of the year and evened it out. Russell was Russell when it mattered most. 49ers were missing some key players but Seahawks had injuries too. These teams are very even, that’s why it came down to the last second and could very well have been a tie. We can argue until we are blue in the face who is the better team but the truth is they are pretty equal .

An opposing fan of reason!
Well done sir.. :irishdrinkers:

 

[Sports Hernia]

The drops absolutely had an impact on the game, for sure, but that's a two sided coin. For instance, I could sit here and find examples of mistakes by the Hawks that would have changed the game as well. Like the fairly benign 50/50 penalty that negated Griffin's interception, or Metcalf's two huge first down drops, and his fumble on the two yard line, etc...

I think the Hawks played poorly on offense. I think Wilson had one of his worst games of the season and struggled for large stretches of the game. Most of our struggles were because the 49ers defense dominated our offensive line. Things could have gone better in certain aspects, absolutely, but at the end of the day, I place the onus on Wilson to get things done. Seriously, we were fortunate to come away with a win. Wilson's fumble for a touchdown and his INT in OT were game changing plays and largely on him. In spite of all the mistakes that were outside of his control, I still think Wilson still needed to play better. That's the burden of being the QB.

What I'm seeing from Niners fans (not necessarily you) seems like the opposite reaction. Instead of acknowledging he struggled, they are protecting him (or themselves) by blaming everything else that went wrong to justify his struggles. The offensive line, the receivers, injuries, etc... Those things are going to happen, and if your QB can't adapt through adversity, then he might not be who you think he is. That's more of generality than specifically relating to Jimmy.

I personally don't place much significance on one game to determine how good a QB a player is. I said way back in week 5 that I didn't know what to make of Jimmy G because we haven't seen what he can do when a defense takes away his running game and forces him to play from behind. I knew this game was coming eventually. No QB is immune to adversity for his entire career. From my perspective, this was an expected occurrence from a young QB on a great team, so much so that I predicted (roughly) what would happen in the prediction thread.



He got his first real test of playoff football and both he and the offense struggled. This is not an indictment on Garoppolo or the Niners chances. This a small bump in the road that Jimmy needs to experience and bounce back from in order to prove to himself that he belongs out there. These fairy-tales about drops and injuries are just things we tell ourselves to feel better about our chances. History doesn't care about young guys who drop passes, or players getting injured at inopportune times. History cares about outcomes, and ultimately, the Niners will only go as far as Jimmy takes them. The rest is just noise.

So I'd answer that two ways....

1) Mostly fair
2) I think your expectation is that regardless of the players around him, you expect the QB to succeed. Thats built by watching Wilson play day in and day out for a long time.

That ain't the way it works on all teams.

You are right, history won't tell that story, but it really doesn't matter what history says. Football isn't played in a history book. The FACTS are that on MULTIPLE occasions last night, Jimmy Garoppolo put the ball on receivers hands and they flat dropped it. Worse yet, on three occasions, the intended target knocked it into the air to get picked off or nearly so.

That IS on those receivers. That is NOT on Jimmy.

I keep reading that he "could have been picked off 5 times". Three of those passes were tipped into the air. How is that on Jimmy?

He did however make some poor throws independent of those passes. That's not even an argument and I'm not defending them. If you had seen Wilson passes getting knocked straight up into the air or dropped on crucial third downs as Niner fans did last night, you would be here making the EXACT same argument.

Now, does that mean I think that was the only factor? Not even a little bit. I'm not trying to absolve Jimmy of all responsibility. What I am saying is that its never quite as bad or quite as good as you think it is. This is a good example.

Being down Kittle and Sanders made a huge difference on the Niner performance. Now does that mean I think they win if those passes are caught? I can't say that because at that point its an entirely different game.

We get it Marv, nothing is Crapollo’s fault In your world, ever. #10 has never thrown a pick that was his fault in your mind. You make excuses for GQ like the excuses you made for the Kraepper. Keep polishing those turds and expecting them to turn into gold.

His tipped balls were because he was missing high, see inaccuracy.
Wagner and KJ Wright dropped balls that hit them squarely in the hands.

Jimmy will be Kraepper 2.0 minus the foot speed, and cannon for an arm. #10 has been exposed.

I get it Hernia, you are immune to nuance and are king of the straw man. You should work for Fox News.

Hey...I can do that too.

Jimmy G has no fatal flaws. Ya know how I know? He's still alive. I can be intentionally obtuse as well. It ain't hard.

As for missing high....he missed high ONCE on those three tipped balls and receiver got both hands on it. The other two were right on the receiver. Coming into the game, he had a 70% completion %. Maybe, just maybe, dropped passes had something to do with it.

Do you ever get Dizzy from all of the spinning? You are the Bill O’Reilly of Niner Trolls.

As for the “fatal flaws” comment, I didn’t come up with that, your boy 5 rusty rings did, so if you have a problem with that, take it up with that goober, that’s his phrase........mkay snowflake?

Again, Crappollo = Kraepper 2.0, deal with it!

 

[2_0_6]

I sit here at 2:20pm on Tuesday and have just scrolled through all 9 pages, I am sure glad we won last night.

That is all, GO HAWKS :49ersmall: :0190l: :0190l: :0190l: :0190l: :0190l:

 

[Sports Hernia]

LOL! :2thumbs:
You better be careful or Marvin might stomp his feet and get all red faced.

 

[Marvin49]

So I'd answer that two ways....

1) Mostly fair
2) I think your expectation is that regardless of the players around him, you expect the QB to succeed. Thats built by watching Wilson play day in and day out for a long time.

That ain't the way it works on all teams.

You are right, history won't tell that story, but it really doesn't matter what history says. Football isn't played in a history book. The FACTS are that on MULTIPLE occasions last night, Jimmy Garoppolo put the ball on receivers hands and they flat dropped it. Worse yet, on three occasions, the intended target knocked it into the air to get picked off or nearly so.

That IS on those receivers. That is NOT on Jimmy.

I keep reading that he "could have been picked off 5 times". Three of those passes were tipped into the air. How is that on Jimmy?

He did however make some poor throws independent of those passes. That's not even an argument and I'm not defending them. If you had seen Wilson passes getting knocked straight up into the air or dropped on crucial third downs as Niner fans did last night, you would be here making the EXACT same argument.

Now, does that mean I think that was the only factor? Not even a little bit. I'm not trying to absolve Jimmy of all responsibility. What I am saying is that its never quite as bad or quite as good as you think it is. This is a good example.

Being down Kittle and Sanders made a huge difference on the Niner performance. Now does that mean I think they win if those passes are caught? I can't say that because at that point its an entirely different game.

We get it Marv, nothing is Crapollo’s fault In your world, ever. #10 has never thrown a pick that was his fault in your mind. You make excuses for GQ like the excuses you made for the Kraepper. Keep polishing those turds and expecting them to turn into gold.

His tipped balls were because he was missing high, see inaccuracy.
Wagner and KJ Wright dropped balls that hit them squarely in the hands.

Jimmy will be Kraepper 2.0 minus the foot speed, and cannon for an arm. #10 has been exposed.

I get it Hernia, you are immune to nuance and are king of the straw man. You should work for Fox News.

Hey...I can do that too.

Jimmy G has no fatal flaws. Ya know how I know? He's still alive. I can be intentionally obtuse as well. It ain't hard.

As for missing high....he missed high ONCE on those three tipped balls and receiver got both hands on it. The other two were right on the receiver. Coming into the game, he had a 70% completion %. Maybe, just maybe, dropped passes had something to do with it.

Do you ever get Dizzy from all of the spinning? You are the Bill O’Reilly of Niner Trolls.

As for the “fatal flaws” comment, I didn’t come up with that, your boy 5 rusty rings did, so if you have a problem with that, take it up with that goober, that’s his phrase........mkay snowflake?

Again, Crappollo = Kraepper 2.0, deal with it!

Jimmy got no fatal flaws. He's still alive.

 

[Maulbert]

I get it Hernia, you are immune to nuance and are king of the straw man. You should work for Fox News.

You don't read much of NINEster's drivel, do you?

Also, unrelated to football, I suggest you read anything posted by fender in the Shack or Lounge to see the TRUE master of the strawman argument.

 

[Marvin49]

I get it Hernia, you are immune to nuance and are king of the straw man. You should work for Fox News.

You don't read much of NINEster's drivel, do you?

Also, unrelated to football, I suggest you read anything posted by fender in the Shack or Lounge to see the TRUE master of the strawman argument.

LOL.

Nah...NINEster typically not targeting me, so rarely respond.

 

[Marvin49]

....adding injury to insult.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CamInman/status/1194377829762207745[/tweet]

 

[Maulbert]

....adding injury to insult.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CamInman/status/1194377829762207745[/tweet]

Both teams came out of it banged up, but I didn't get the feeling it was a dirty game. Honestly just felt like both teams would rather leave injured than with a loss.

 

[Marvin49]

....adding injury to insult.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CamInman/status/1194377829762207745[/tweet]

Both teams came out of it banged up, but I didn't get the feeling it was a dirty game. Honestly just felt like both teams would rather leave injured than with a loss.

Nah...wasn't dirty. I agree with you.

Just frustrating to be unable to get through a game and get some guys back without losing someone else.

Just nature of the NFL I guess, but sure feels like Niners have been hit pretty hard with the injury stick three years running.

 

[Maulbert]

....adding injury to insult.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CamInman/status/1194377829762207745[/tweet]

Both teams came out of it banged up, but I didn't get the feeling it was a dirty game. Honestly just felt like both teams would rather leave injured than with a loss.

Nah...wasn't dirty. I agree with you.

Just frustrating to be unable to get through a game and get some guys back without losing someone else.

Just nature of the NFL I guess, but sure feels like Niners have been hit pretty hard with the injury stick three years running.

Having your bye so early doesn't help, either. I hate any bye before week 6. This year's bye couldn't come at a better time for the Hawks.

 

[kidhawk]

....adding injury to insult.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CamInman/status/1194377829762207745[/tweet]

or perhaps adding injury to insult?

 

[Marvin49]

....adding injury to insult.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CamInman/status/1194377829762207745[/tweet]

or perhaps adding injury to insult?

That's.....what I said..... :lol:

 

[knownone]

So I'd answer that two ways....

1) Mostly fair
2) I think your expectation is that regardless of the players around him, you expect the QB to succeed. Thats built by watching Wilson play day in and day out for a long time.

That ain't the way it works on all teams.

You are right, history won't tell that story, but it really doesn't matter what history says. Football isn't played in a history book. The FACTS are that on MULTIPLE occasions last night, Jimmy Garoppolo put the ball on receivers hands and they flat dropped it. Worse yet, on three occasions, the intended target knocked it into the air to get picked off or nearly so.

That IS on those receivers. That is NOT on Jimmy.

I keep reading that he "could have been picked off 5 times". Three of those passes were tipped into the air. How is that on Jimmy?

He did however make some poor throws independent of those passes. That's not even an argument and I'm not defending them. If you had seen Wilson passes getting knocked straight up into the air or dropped on crucial third downs as Niner fans did last night, you would be here making the EXACT same argument.

Now, does that mean I think that was the only factor? Not even a little bit. I'm not trying to absolve Jimmy of all responsibility. What I am saying is that its never quite as bad or quite as good as you think it is. This is a good example.

Being down Kittle and Sanders made a huge difference on the Niner performance. Now does that mean I think they win if those passes are caught? I can't say that because at that point its an entirely different game.

2) Kind of... As someone in a leadership position from a professional stand point, I place the burden on leadership to elevate the people around them regardless of the circumstances surrounding the situation. I don't expect them to succeed 100% of the time, but I do hold them and myself accountable when things don't succeed. Most importantly, I don't want to hear someone blame the people underneath them for why they failed to get things done.

a. I grew up an Eagles fan watching extremely talented teams get derailed by QB's who couldn't perform when it matters. In fact, I watched the greatest defense ever constructed (1991 Eagles) fail to make the playoffs because our QB's were so bad they literally had 10 more interceptions than TD passes (17 TDs, 27 Ints). We damn near gave up more TDs on offense that season than on defense.

b. I'm thankful for Wilson, but he's an anomaly from a QB perspective and not the barometer with which I judge all QBs. I try to judge QBs by what I've seen from other great QBs with a similar style of play and by the qualities those guys possess. Now, I don't expect a guy in his 19th start to be at their level, but it does give me an idea of what type of QB they are or can become.

In SB XLIX, Seattle lost their best pass rusher and slot corner to injury mid way through the 2nd quarter. Before those injuries Brady had a QB rating of about 70, after those injuries his QB rating was well above 110. You know what 99% of people blame the outcome of the game on? A RW goal-line pass. Facts don't change outcomes, they assuage the medium between your expectations and reality.

That's what I mean when I say history doesn't care. Think about it: If last nights game was a playoff game and your season ended, then you'd have a ton of people to blame, but ultimately Jimmy's performance had the highest potential impact on your chance of winning. These moments are finite, there is no guarantee you'll ever have another opportunity like them again.

As for the whole 5 int thing...

Here's the thing, let's remove bias from the equation and look at his Total QBR of 15.7 out of a possible 100. You may say 'that's on his receivers dropping the ball', but Total QBR is adjusted specifically to compensate for that.

Total QBR splits responsibility on plays between the quarterback, his receivers, and his blockers. Drops, for example, are more on the receiver, as are yards after the catch, and some sacks are more on the offensive line than others.

His 15.7 QBR is the one of the 5 worst of any QBs this season. At some point those 'tipped passes' and balls going off the receivers hands are as much a fault of Jimmy's decision making and ball placement, as they are the receivers fault for not holding on to the ball.

Guess what? Seattle's leading receivers were a 2nd round rookie WR, an un-drafted (4th string) practice squad TE, an un-drafted (6th string) practice squad WR, and a guy who had been with the team for 10 days. Do you think those guys are just magically better? No... the QB is putting them in situations to succeed both on the field and in the huddle. And that's not just a RW3 thing; that's what all great QBs do and something Jimmy needs to learn.

We agree on pretty much everything but the minutia of the matter. I think you bring up fair points, and I appreciate your perspective.

 

[Maulbert]

So I'd answer that two ways....

1) Mostly fair
2) I think your expectation is that regardless of the players around him, you expect the QB to succeed. Thats built by watching Wilson play day in and day out for a long time.

That ain't the way it works on all teams.

You are right, history won't tell that story, but it really doesn't matter what history says. Football isn't played in a history book. The FACTS are that on MULTIPLE occasions last night, Jimmy Garoppolo put the ball on receivers hands and they flat dropped it. Worse yet, on three occasions, the intended target knocked it into the air to get picked off or nearly so.

That IS on those receivers. That is NOT on Jimmy.

I keep reading that he "could have been picked off 5 times". Three of those passes were tipped into the air. How is that on Jimmy?

He did however make some poor throws independent of those passes. That's not even an argument and I'm not defending them. If you had seen Wilson passes getting knocked straight up into the air or dropped on crucial third downs as Niner fans did last night, you would be here making the EXACT same argument.

Now, does that mean I think that was the only factor? Not even a little bit. I'm not trying to absolve Jimmy of all responsibility. What I am saying is that its never quite as bad or quite as good as you think it is. This is a good example.

Being down Kittle and Sanders made a huge difference on the Niner performance. Now does that mean I think they win if those passes are caught? I can't say that because at that point its an entirely different game.

2) Kind of... As someone in a leadership position from a professional stand point, I place the burden on leadership to elevate the people around them regardless of the circumstances surrounding the situation. I don't expect them to succeed 100% of the time, but I do hold them and myself accountable when things don't succeed. Most importantly, I don't want to hear someone blame the people underneath them for why they failed to get things done.

a. I grew up an Eagles fan watching extremely talented teams get derailed by QB's who couldn't perform when it matters. In fact, I watched the greatest defense ever constructed (1991 Eagles) fail to make the playoffs because our QB's were so bad they literally had 10 more interceptions than TD passes (17 TDs, 27 Ints). We damn near gave up more TDs on offense that season than on defense.

b. I'm thankful for Wilson, but he's an anomaly from a QB perspective and not the barometer with which I judge all QBs. I try to judge QBs by what I've seen from other great QBs with a similar style of play and by the qualities those guys possess. Now, I don't expect a guy in his 19th start to be at their level, but it does give me an idea of what type of QB they are or can become.

In SB XLIX, Seattle lost their best pass rusher and slot corner to injury mid way through the 2nd quarter. Before those injuries Brady had a QB rating of about 70, after those injuries his QB rating was well above 110. You know what 99% of people blame the outcome of the game on? A RW goal-line pass. Facts don't change outcomes, they assuage the medium between your expectations and reality.

That's what I mean when I say history doesn't care. Think about it: If last nights game was a playoff game and your season ended, then you'd have a ton of people to blame, but ultimately Jimmy's performance had the highest potential impact on your chance of winning. These moments are finite, there is no guarantee you'll ever have another opportunity like them again.

As for the whole 5 int thing...

Here's the thing, let's remove bias from the equation and look at his Total QBR of 15.7 out of a possible 100. You may say 'that's on his receivers dropping the ball', but Total QBR is adjusted specifically to compensate for that.

Total QBR splits responsibility on plays between the quarterback, his receivers, and his blockers. Drops, for example, are more on the receiver, as are yards after the catch, and some sacks are more on the offensive line than others.

His 15.7 QBR is the one of the 5 worst of any QBs this season. At some point those 'tipped passes' and balls going off the receivers hands are as much a fault of Jimmy's decision making and ball placement, as they are the receivers fault for not holding on to the ball.

Guess what? Seattle's leading receivers were a 2nd round rookie WR, an un-drafted (4th string) practice squad TE, an un-drafted (6th string) practice squad WR, and a guy who had been with the team for 10 days. Do you think those guys are just magically better? No... the QB is putting them in situations to succeed both on the field and in the huddle. And that's not just a RW3 thing; that's what all great QBs do and something Jimmy needs to learn.

We agree on pretty much everything but the minutia of the matter. I think you bring up fair points, and I appreciate your perspective.

Some damn fantastic analysis.

 

[kidhawk]

....adding injury to insult.

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CamInman/status/1194377829762207745[/tweet]

or perhaps adding injury to insult?

That's.....what I said..... :lol:

hahaha I read that thing incorrectly at least 3 times before I posted that. It's true that you really can read things the way you expect them if you're not careful.

 

[Marvin49]

So I'd answer that two ways....

1) Mostly fair
2) I think your expectation is that regardless of the players around him, you expect the QB to succeed. Thats built by watching Wilson play day in and day out for a long time.

That ain't the way it works on all teams.

You are right, history won't tell that story, but it really doesn't matter what history says. Football isn't played in a history book. The FACTS are that on MULTIPLE occasions last night, Jimmy Garoppolo put the ball on receivers hands and they flat dropped it. Worse yet, on three occasions, the intended target knocked it into the air to get picked off or nearly so.

That IS on those receivers. That is NOT on Jimmy.

I keep reading that he "could have been picked off 5 times". Three of those passes were tipped into the air. How is that on Jimmy?

He did however make some poor throws independent of those passes. That's not even an argument and I'm not defending them. If you had seen Wilson passes getting knocked straight up into the air or dropped on crucial third downs as Niner fans did last night, you would be here making the EXACT same argument.

Now, does that mean I think that was the only factor? Not even a little bit. I'm not trying to absolve Jimmy of all responsibility. What I am saying is that its never quite as bad or quite as good as you think it is. This is a good example.

Being down Kittle and Sanders made a huge difference on the Niner performance. Now does that mean I think they win if those passes are caught? I can't say that because at that point its an entirely different game.

2) Kind of... As someone in a leadership position from a professional stand point, I place the burden on leadership to elevate the people around them regardless of the circumstances surrounding the situation. I don't expect them to succeed 100% of the time, but I do hold them and myself accountable when things don't succeed. Most importantly, I don't want to hear someone blame the people underneath them for why they failed to get things done.

a. I grew up an Eagles fan watching extremely talented teams get derailed by QB's who couldn't perform when it matters. In fact, I watched the greatest defense ever constructed (1991 Eagles) fail to make the playoffs because our QB's were so bad they literally had 10 more interceptions than TD passes (17 TDs, 27 Ints). We damn near gave up more TDs on offense that season than on defense.

b. I'm thankful for Wilson, but he's an anomaly from a QB perspective and not the barometer with which I judge all QBs. I try to judge QBs by what I've seen from other great QBs with a similar style of play and by the qualities those guys possess. Now, I don't expect a guy in his 19th start to be at their level, but it does give me an idea of what type of QB they are or can become.

In SB XLIX, Seattle lost their best pass rusher and slot corner to injury mid way through the 2nd quarter. Before those injuries Brady had a QB rating of about 70, after those injuries his QB rating was well above 110. You know what 99% of people blame the outcome of the game on? A RW goal-line pass. Facts don't change outcomes, they assuage the medium between your expectations and reality.

That's what I mean when I say history doesn't care. Think about it: If last nights game was a playoff game and your season ended, then you'd have a ton of people to blame, but ultimately Jimmy's performance had the highest potential impact on your chance of winning. These moments are finite, there is no guarantee you'll ever have another opportunity like them again.

As for the whole 5 int thing...

Here's the thing, let's remove bias from the equation and look at his Total QBR of 15.7 out of a possible 100. You may say 'that's on his receivers dropping the ball', but Total QBR is adjusted specifically to compensate for that.

Total QBR splits responsibility on plays between the quarterback, his receivers, and his blockers. Drops, for example, are more on the receiver, as are yards after the catch, and some sacks are more on the offensive line than others.

His 15.7 QBR is the one of the 5 worst of any QBs this season. At some point those 'tipped passes' and balls going off the receivers hands are as much a fault of Jimmy's decision making and ball placement, as they are the receivers fault for not holding on to the ball.

Guess what? Seattle's leading receivers were a 2nd round rookie WR, an un-drafted (4th string) practice squad TE, an un-drafted (6th string) practice squad WR, and a guy who had been with the team for 10 days. Do you think those guys are just magically better? No... the QB is putting them in situations to succeed both on the field and in the huddle. And that's not just a RW3 thing; that's what all great QBs do and something Jimmy needs to learn.

We agree on pretty much everything but the minutia of the matter. I think you bring up fair points, and I appreciate your perspective.

So I guess the best way I can put it is this....

....I am not and will not absolve Jimmy of any of the responsibility. Some here like to take comments out of context and employ the straw man to make conversations appear ludicrous...cough...hernia...cough.

I am not blind to the mistakes that Jimmy made last night.I have at not time maintained he played well. Your point about poor ball placement is a good one, but NO QB is throws perfect, precision passes on every attempt.

With the exception of 2, the overthrows we are talking about were not high. They were right on the money. Bourne with a clear first down for 1st and goal. Samuel with room to run.

As for the Seahawks WRs "magically" being better...its irrelevant. That's not the argument I'm making. I'm not making the comparison between Jimmy and Wilson. People keep trying to make it that and it just isn't. That argument is dead an buried.

It's like what some want from me here is to say "yup, we're screwed. Jimmy sucks".

That's just not what I see. He didn't platy well last night for many reasons that were both his fault and not. I think he's got work do do and the Front Office has work to do. All I'm defending here really is the seemingly forgone conclusion that he is not and never will be a good QB. I think that's just crazy to me.

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

So I'd answer that two ways....

1) Mostly fair
2) I think your expectation is that regardless of the players around him, you expect the QB to succeed. Thats built by watching Wilson play day in and day out for a long time.

That ain't the way it works on all teams.

You are right, history won't tell that story, but it really doesn't matter what history says. Football isn't played in a history book. The FACTS are that on MULTIPLE occasions last night, Jimmy Garoppolo put the ball on receivers hands and they flat dropped it. Worse yet, on three occasions, the intended target knocked it into the air to get picked off or nearly so.

That IS on those receivers. That is NOT on Jimmy.

I keep reading that he "could have been picked off 5 times". Three of those passes were tipped into the air. How is that on Jimmy?

He did however make some poor throws independent of those passes. That's not even an argument and I'm not defending them. If you had seen Wilson passes getting knocked straight up into the air or dropped on crucial third downs as Niner fans did last night, you would be here making the EXACT same argument.

Now, does that mean I think that was the only factor? Not even a little bit. I'm not trying to absolve Jimmy of all responsibility. What I am saying is that its never quite as bad or quite as good as you think it is. This is a good example.

Being down Kittle and Sanders made a huge difference on the Niner performance. Now does that mean I think they win if those passes are caught? I can't say that because at that point its an entirely different game.

We get it Marv, nothing is Crapollo’s fault In your world, ever. #10 has never thrown a pick that was his fault in your mind. You make excuses for GQ like the excuses you made for the Kraepper. Keep polishing those turds and expecting them to turn into gold.

His tipped balls were because he was missing high, see inaccuracy.
Wagner and KJ Wright dropped balls that hit them squarely in the hands.

Jimmy will be Kraepper 2.0 minus the foot speed, and cannon for an arm. #10 has been exposed.

I get it Hernia, you are immune to nuance and are king of the straw man. You should work for Fox News.

Hey...I can do that too.

Jimmy G has no fatal flaws. Ya know how I know? He's still alive. I can be intentionally obtuse as well. It ain't hard.

As for missing high....he missed high ONCE on those three tipped balls and receiver got both hands on it. The other two were right on the receiver. Coming into the game, he had a 70% completion %. Maybe, just maybe, dropped passes had something to do with it.

Do you ever get Dizzy from all of the spinning? You are the Bill O’Reilly of Niner Trolls.

As for the “fatal flaws” comment, I didn’t come up with that, your boy 5 rusty rings did, so if you have a problem with that, take it up with that goober, that’s his phrase........mkay snowflake?

Again, Crappollo = Kraepper 2.0, deal with it!

Dude, the king of spin is the guy who repeatedly ignores the fact that "no fatal flaws" was in reference to predictable physical tendencies (such as a long release). Over and over and over again you SPIN what was said to take it grossly out of context and never admit it. If there is a king of spin, it's you. That or, as I suspect, you are mentally handicapped.