Seahawks “get” that kneeling is disrespectful to Vet's

[Rocket]

And no, I'm not "post padding"... I replied to several posts.

 

[StoneCold]

They are kneeling because something is wrong. Much the way you might fly the flag at half mast when honoring a person that has died.

You're on the right track, but with the wrong locomotive. When your goal is to effect change, if you alienate your audience you will fail. In picking their form of protest, they screwed up.

Only time will tell. The "Lunch Counter" protesters we're also seen as being a negative. Though not by the people in favor of the protest.

 

[pmedic920]

I️ said this in the other thread and I’ll repeat it here, IMHO the whole thing is, or has become reality stupid.

People aren’t talking about the reason the protest started, they are talking about the protest it’s self.

Even as I️ type this, Fox News is Reporting some bullshit about Papa John (the pizza guy) and his comments about the protest.

The reason that these protests started is a “real” & “valid” concern but because so many find the protest “offensive” it’s not, in my mind, effective.

Seriously Please, someone tell me the last time you heard the original “reason” being discussed in relation to the protests?

I️ absolutely agree with the premise, if they stood out of respect to Vets, they are fully aware that kneeling is disrespectful.

The “fact” that so many see kneeling as disrespectful has driven a wedge, it has caused a large number of people that would otherwise “care”, to turn a blinds eye.

These guys absolutely 100% have the right to protest however they see fit.

The fact that our flag flies gives them that right.

It saddens me that out of 1000s of ways to raise awareness, that they chose this way.

It amazes me, that they can’t see how ineffective it is.

Makes me wonder what would happen in N.Korea if something similar took place.

 

[Zebulon Dak]

I agree that them standing this past week diluted their message. They should have knelt as they have been. I understand why they chose to do it, because they wanted to show respect to the veterans, but since their protest has never been about disrespecting veterans, it was unnecessary. Hopefully they learn from the mistake and try to stay more consistent from now on.

 

[Mindsink]

It amazes me, that they can’t see how ineffective it is.

It's childish, and is really not all that different than my 6 year old throwing a tantrum when she doesn't get her way.

Makes me wonder what would happen in N.Korea if something similar took place.

Which makes them look like spoiled entitled brats. They live in a place that offers them the greatest freedom and living standard and it's not enough because they still feel like they're "oppressed". They don't know what real oppression is.

 

[Zebulon Dak]

It saddens me that out of 1000s of ways to raise awareness, that they chose this way.

It amazes me, that they can’t see how ineffective it is.

Effective enough that we're still sitting here talking about it.

How would you prefer they go about it?

Makes me wonder what would happen in N.Korea if something similar took place.

This is a confusing thought. I don't really follow. I don't see how it's relevant to the conversation. Care to clarify?

 

[Zebulon Dak]

Makes me wonder what would happen in N.Korea if something similar took place.

Which makes them look like spoiled entitled brats. They live in a place that offers them the greatest freedom and living standard and it's not enough because they still feel like they're "oppressed". They don't know what real oppression is.

What do you think they believe they're entitled to?

 

[sutz]

Which makes them look like spoiled entitled brats. They live in a place that offers them the greatest freedom and living standard and it's not enough because they still feel like they're "oppressed". They don't know what real oppression is.

:34853_doh: Did you really type that? :34853_doh:

They are protesting that others are being oppressed.

 

[pmedic920]

Hey Zeb, good to hear from you.

My point is this, were not talking about the reason that the protests started. We are talking about the protest and all the side issues that have come up as a result.

In my mind that makes the protest ineffective, and it’s actually taking focus away from the original issue. YMMV


As far as the “N. Korea” comment goes, I️m not positive what would happen but I️ know there are places in the world that this type of protest would not be allowed.
Protesters would be jailed or possibly even killed if they attempted this type of thing.
I️ think we are lucky/blessed to live in the USA, with all of our problems I️ still wouldn’t want to live any other place.
I️ believe with all I️ have, that our flag represents the very freedom that gives people the “right” to peaceful protest.
It’s my personal opinion that kneeling before our flag and anthem is disrespectful of the very thing that gives them the “right” to protest.

Again, we are NOT talking about unnecessary shootings of minorities, we are not talking about racism, or profiling of a particular sector of our society.

We ARE talking about the protest and if it’s disrespectful.
We ARE talking about NFL revenue.
We ARE talking about the right to protest.

In my mind, they have pushed away a huge segment of our society, and that’s a group that they should want on their side.

I️m not claiming to be “right”, and I️m not trying to argue or change anybody’s mind.
It’s just how I️ see it from my point of view.

Edit:
And to the point of the OP.

I️ absolutely agree, standing for the Vets is proof in my mind that they do know it’s disrespectful.
Was a point in time that these protests were raising awareness but that ship has sailed.
They need to find a new vehicle.
It’s my opinion that they are hurting their cause, not helping it.
I️ feel this way because we just aren’t talking about the original issue any longer.

 

[Zebulon Dak]

Hey Zeb, good to hear from you.

My point is this, were not talking about the reason that the protests started. We are talking about the protest and all the side issues that have come up as a result.

In my mind that makes the protest ineffective, and it’s actually taking focus away from the original issue. YMMV

Good to hear from you too, Lon. The reason the focus of conversation has shifted away from the original point of the protests is because the people who disagree with the protests have decided to change the focus. It happens all the time. This is not the fault of the people protesting.

If you tell me that you don't like the way I'm talking to you and my response is that I can talk to you however I want and you have no right to tell me how to talk then we're not really addressing the actual issue, are we? Now, is that your fault for protesting? Or is it my fault for getting defensive and not addressing the actual problem?

As far as the “N. Korea” comment goes, I️m not positive what would happen but I️ know there are places in the world that this type of protest would not be allowed.
Protesters would be jailed or possibly even killed if they attempted this type of thing.
I️ think we are lucky/blessed to live in the USA, with all of our problems I️ still wouldn’t want to live any other place.
I️ believe with all I️ have, that our flag represents the very freedom that gives people the “right” to peaceful protest.
It’s my personal opinion that kneeling before our flag and anthem is disrespectful of the very thing that gives them the “right” to protest.

This is an interesting paradox you bring up. You are essentially saying that people shouldn't protest in this manner because they have the right to do so and because there are other places, worse places, where this type of protest would not be allowed. People shouldn't practice this portion of their 1st amendment rights because there are other places in the world where people don't have those rights. It's an interesting exercise in logic. If we were talking about, say, the 2nd amendment, would you still feel the same way? The same parameters can actually be applied quite easily. It's a pretty interesting juxtaposition.

Was a point in time that these protests were raising awareness but that ship has sailed.
They need to find a new vehicle.
It’s my opinion that they are hurting their cause, not helping it.
I️ feel this way because we just aren’t talking about the original issue any longer.

Again, what method of protest would you prefer? If this particular vehicle is no longer effective then what is the next step? My suspicion is that it's not actually the method of protesting that you take issue with, but the idea that there was need for protest at all in the first place, and that no protest would truly satisfy your criteria for acceptability. In which case we can't really have an honest conversation about it without showing all of our cards.

 

[pmedic920]

Hey Zeb, good to hear from you.

My point is this, were not talking about the reason that the protests started. We are talking about the protest and all the side issues that have come up as a result.

In my mind that makes the protest ineffective, and it’s actually taking focus away from the original issue. YMMV

Good to hear from you too, Lon. The reason the focus of conversation has shifted away from the original point of the protests is because the people who disagree with the protests have decided to change the focus. It happens all the time. This is not the fault of the people protesting.

If you tell me that you don't like the way I'm talking to you and my response is that I can talk to you however I want and you have no right to tell me how to talk then we're not really addressing the actual issue, are we? Now, is that your fault for protesting? Or is it my fault for getting defensive and not addressing the actual problem?

As far as the “N. Korea” comment goes, I️m not positive what would happen but I️ know there are places in the world that this type of protest would not be allowed.
Protesters would be jailed or possibly even killed if they attempted this type of thing.
I️ think we are lucky/blessed to live in the USA, with all of our problems I️ still wouldn’t want to live any other place.
I️ believe with all I️ have, that our flag represents the very freedom that gives people the “right” to peaceful protest.
It’s my personal opinion that kneeling before our flag and anthem is disrespectful of the very thing that gives them the “right” to protest.

This is an interesting paradox you bring up. You are essentially saying that people shouldn't protest in this manner because they have the right to do so and because there are other places, worse places, where this type of protest would not be allowed. People shouldn't practice this portion of their 1st amendment rights because there are other places in the world where people don't have those rights. It's an interesting exercise in logic. If we were talking about, say, the 2nd amendment, would you still feel the same way? The same parameters can actually be applied quite easily. It's a pretty interesting juxtaposition.

Was a point in time that these protests were raising awareness but that ship has sailed.
They need to find a new vehicle.
It’s my opinion that they are hurting their cause, not helping it.
I️ feel this way because we just aren’t talking about the original issue any longer.

Again, what method of protest would you prefer? If this particular vehicle is no longer effective then what is the next step? My suspicion is that it's not actually the method of protesting that you take issue with, but the idea that there was need for protest at all in the first place, and that no protest would truly satisfy your criteria for acceptability. In which case we can't really have an honest conversation about it without showing all of our cards.

I’ve already stated that I️ think the original issues are valid.

This thread is about respect/disrespect.

I️ do think that this form of protest is disrespectful of the very thing/things that give us/them the right to protest.
If we look back at the OP, it’s about the team standing to show respect to the Vets, that tells me that they know what they have been doing is disrespectful, or at a minimum they are acknowledging that a large part of their audience sees it as disrespectful.

I️’m absolutely not against NFL players protesting for this cause but I️ don’t like the this method because I️ see it as disrespectful. I️ also know that I️m not the only one that has focused on the disrespect.
Like I️ said above, this is simply my opinion of it all, I️m not trying to change anybody’s mind.

As far as shifting the focus goes, I️m not sure how, or when that happened, and it surly wasn’t intentional on my part.
I️ do know that the very first time I️ saw Kaepernick kneeling for the anthem it pissed me off, I️ already didn’t care for him and I️ called him all kinds of names.
I️ also hated it every time I️ saw a player kneeling or sitting after that, including when some of the Seahawks did it. Not even once, did I️ say to myself, “hey, we need to stop shooting kids”

I️m well aware that voicing my opinion on this isn’t very PC but I’m pretty sure of this, if “white” middle America were honest about it, the majority feel pretty close to the way I️ do. They know that the original issues are valid but have a hard time getting behind the cause, because they don’t like the disrespect of the protest.

My simple mind thinks that a protest should raise awareness, and be a catalyst for change.

This protest did, at one point, make people aware of these player’s concerns but we really aren’t talking about those concerns any longer.

Change?
The NFL may make some rule changes. We may stop seeing the anthem being televised, or maybe not even being played at NFL games. I️ don’t think those are the type of change that the players are looking for.

How I️ want them to protest isn’t the issue for me, I’d like to see them be effective. I’d like to see them come up with something that would unite all of America to get behind the cause. What they are doing has caused a division, and IMO is counter productive.


Remember this guy?

What if?
What if they wore black sox, black shoes, and wrist bands?

The NFL, and maybe the teams would fine them. They can afford the fines. They would be putting their own money where the mouth is, so to speak.
Something like this would “re-set” the conversation. They would have a fresh start to refocus the narrative.
There probably is a number of things they could do to move away from the “flag” & “anthem”.

It’s a fact, many people see what they are doing as disrespectful, and they’ve basically lost that whole segment of our society.

Don’t you agree, that the bigger and more diversified the team is, the better chance they have to bring about “change”?

 

[sutz]

Protests are useless if they don't annoy somebody. That's kind of the point of protesting.

As for wearing special accessories on their uniforms, it will only revert back to your problem, people will change the subject once again and talk about "respecting the uniform" or some such crap.

BTW, kneeling is a sign of respect for those who have forgotten.

 

[Mindsink]

They are protesting that others are being oppressed.

Same difference. The truth is that nobody is being oppressed. Oppression is a strong word. Stereotyped? Ok.

 

[sutz]

They are protesting that others are being oppressed.

Same difference. The truth is that nobody is being oppressed. Oppression is a strong word. Stereotyped? Ok.

Interesting. I suppose that pointing out a different point of view to that statement would be too political. :229031_shrug:

I'll just say that not all people agree with that opinion.

 

[Mindsink]

talk about "respecting the uniform" or some such crap.

Have you SEEN the color rush uniforms??

 

[Mindsink]

Interesting. I suppose that pointing out a different point of view to that statement would be too political. :229031_shrug:

I'll just say that not all people agree with that opinion.

Too political for what? This message board?

Of course not all people agree with that opinion. Many people form their opinions based on what the media/society tells them. People like myself form opinions on personal experience and empirical evidence.

 

[Mindsink]

My suspicion is that it's not actually the method of protesting that you take issue with, but the idea that there was need for protest at all in the first place, and that no protest would truly satisfy your criteria for acceptability. In which case we can't really have an honest conversation about it without showing all of our cards.

For me, it's both. So let's have an honest conversation about it then. Isn't that what this board is for?

 

[pmedic920]

Protests are useless if they don't annoy somebody. That's kind of the point of protesting. [emoji6]

As for wearing special accessories on their uniforms, it will only revert back to your problem, people will change the subject once again and talk about "respecting the uniform" or some such crap.

BTW, kneeling is a sign of respect for those who have forgotten.

Kneeling is a sign of respect in some instances.

Standing and removing cover, placing hand over heart is a sign of respect in some circumstances.

You decide what we’re talking about here, it’s so easy, even I️ can figure it out.

If being annoying is the goal of this protest, they have achieved it.

The problem as I️ see it, and have been trying to point out, they have annoyed the very segment of our society that they should want on their side.

Im not attempting to change your mind, and if you think they are being effective, you’re entitled to that.

I️m not saying they should wear black shoes, I️m saying they should come up with something that will re-set the conversation.

They should do something that would re-unite the forces.

We have a couple of threads discussing these protest now.

Go back and look, see how many times that anyone mentions “racial profiling”, “cops shooting people of color”, or even “racism” in general.
It’s not happening here, and it’s not happening out there.

I’d love to see some “change”, I’d love for our society to evolve into something better.

Kneeling for the anthem wasn’t a bad starting point IMO but they missed the mark. Once they got the attention of America, they should have shifted the focus back to the original reasons for kneeling. Timing is everything.

They missed the mark, and now have lost any ground they gained.

In this day and age, these athletes have a ton of power, probably more than most are aware of.

Advertising and Retail moguls understand how much power they have, don’t they?

Power does little good if the one wielding it doesn’t understand how to best use it.

We’re talking about respect/disrespect.
I️ can’t speak for anyone else but I’d bet there are many that feel like I️ do.
The disrespect that I️ see far overshadows the original cause. That makes the protest ineffective in my eyes.

If you see it as being effective that’s your prerogative.

It’s my opinion that “unity in the masses” is what they need to effect change.
It’s also my opinion that they have divided the masses.
They have slapped the faces and pissed on the graves of millions. They would be much better served, if those millions were on their side of the issue.

I️ support their right to protest 100%.
I️ just wish they would be smarter about the method because I’d like to see the changes they are kneeling for.

 

[Osprey]

Protests are useless if they don't annoy somebody. That's kind of the point of protesting.

To a point..when the protest becomes routine it loses its effectiveness and you're just the crazy guy on the street corner shouting about Lizard People ruling the world.

Also, this is a workplace. By your definition they are setting out to annoy their own customers, how foolish is that?

As for wearing special accessories on their uniforms, it will only revert back to your problem, people will change the subject once again and talk about "respecting the uniform" or some such crap.

This is actually a potential compromise. The NFL already does cancer awareness and salute to troops. Find a way to express the issue positively and it could be a sanctioned short term uniform addition.

 

[renofox]

Communications 101: Sender -> Noise -> Receiver

It is the speaker's (sender) responsibility to understand the audience (receiver) and to tailor both the message and delivery (including time and place) to ensure that the audience clearly understands the message.

It is also the speaker's responsibility to analyze any possible noise (anthem protest) which may confuse or interfere with the message (social justice) and take necessary steps to cut through that noise (in this case, choose a different time to deliver the message, such as player interviews and press conferences, etc.).

The players and the NFL are failing horribly in basic communication. Maybe they should hire a consultant or have someone teach them the basics? Wasn't Sherman a comm major?