Ray McDonald arrested for domestic violence...

[Popeyejones]

Any comparison of course involves similarities and differences. It is the nature of comparison. The question is the degree to which the similarities and differences are relevant.

To try to make your case that these differences are relevant to the topic under discussion, you are now suggesting that the NFLPA can dictate a coach's decision to sit or start a player. Read that again.

This is before we even get into the conduct unbecoming clause in every single NFL contract that allows for the next rung up in organizational decision making, or the basic point that teams regularly cut players with no stated cause whatsoever. The NFLPA may get involved for game checks when conduct unbecoming is invoked, but they have no control whatsoever over who is and is not cut, let alone how coaches manage their starting lineups (which is really just a laughable claim, if that's the one you're making <--- which I assume must be the case, as it's what we're discussing). If Harbaugh chose to sit McDonald or Baalke chose to cut him the NFLPA can say bubkis, and that's the way it should be.

 

[Marvin49]

Well the smart thing to do would be for the team to suspend him until at least the team is satisfied he isn't guilty. Ignoring that is completely classless.

Putting the shoe on the other foot, should the Seahawks have voluntarily suspended Richard Sherman when he got popped for using PEDs?

Like it or not, the 9ers are the only org in recent memory to voluntarily sit down a star player for an extended period of time during a season so he could get the help he needed.

Pending release of the police report I hope Harbaugh sits McDonald on Sunday (he doesn't have the power to cut him), but I don't entirely buy your moral grandstanding on this one (or on any issue really, tbh).

Just a side note....

...McDonald won't be outright released. That's my guess BTW.

They may deactivate him for the year or something and then deal with it in the offseason, but they just renegotiated his contract on Saturday and shifted his salary into a signing bonus to save 2 mil on the cap this year (they have done that several times in the past month or so and also released some vets like CJ Spillman and Adam Snyder in favor of cheaper rookies....looks like they are prepping for something big...resigning Crab? Dunno).

If they cut him ALL of that money accelerates on the cap this year...so in effect they would be punishing someone else because they can't afford to pay them because the McDonald contract hurts them. They won't cut off their nose to spite their face.

So...as I said, if this all goes that way, I'd expect them to put him away for the year, but not outright cut him and then deal with him next offseason, but his career as a 49er would be effectively over.

 

[Marvin49]

The amount of press that the incident gets dictates how quickly and how "morally" the team handles it.

Of course, although again, let's name the teams and coaches that have responded accordingly.

The Panthers didn't cut Rae Carruth until a month after he murdered his 8 months pregnant girlfriend. It wasn't until after he fled and the cops found him hiding in the trunk of a car that the team did anything.

Ray Lewis was on trial for murder too and the Ravens never did a thing.

What did the Steelers org personally do to Roethelsberger after multiple rape allegations?

Since 2000 83 NFL players have been arrested for domestic violence. Of those 83 how many starters have had their head coaches unequivocally condemn domestic violence and say their team has zero tolerance for it? How many of them have been voluntarily punished by their teams before the NFL levied a punishment?

Real questions. I hope the 9ers do. It would make me proud of the team I root for, but I'm not going to delude myself into thinking they're any different than anyone else if they don't.

...and how many of them sent possibly their best defensive player to rehab for 5 weeks when they were 1-2 and on the verge of letting the season get away.

 

[Milehighhawk]

Any comparison of course involves similarities and differences. It is the nature of comparison. The question is the degree to which the similarities and differences are relevant.

To try to make your case that these differences are relevant to the topic under discussion, you are now suggesting that the NFLPA can dictate a coach's decision to sit or start a player. Read that again.

This is before we even get into the conduct unbecoming clause in every single NFL contract that allows for the next rung up in organizational decision making, or the basic point that teams regularly cut players with no stated cause whatsoever. The NFLPA may get involved for game checks when conduct unbecoming is invoked, but they have no control whatsoever over who is and is not cut, let alone how coaches manage their starting lineups (which is really just a laughable claim, if that's the one you're making <--- which I assume must be the case, as it's what we're discussing). If Harbaugh chose to sit McDonald or Baalke chose to cut him the NFLPA can say bubkis, and that's the way it should be.

This will be my last reply because frankly I believe you are willfully reading things into this that aren't there just to be argumentative. Take the bold for example. I have made no such claim, yet there you put it forth as though you could quote it right from my writing.

I am suggesting the NFLPA would take serious issue with a coach punishing a player based upon a finding of PED use that had not completed due process, which has been clearly defined and agreed to through the CBA. Get that through your head, if a coach chooses to punish a player based upon "conduct unbecoming", there is no recourse the player can take because, ding ding ding, the clause you mentioned above. PED use has no such out. As far as I can tell the team MUST wait for the full banned substance process to complete before punishment is then handed down by the league.

If you can prove otherwise I would concede my point, but up to now you are talking around me.

 

[Popeyejones]

Marv: yeah, totally agreed that this an (albeit unprecedented) more likely scenario. Of course, most likely is they'll do what everyone else in the league up to this point has done (save for one exception), and let the league adjudicate the punishment. Of course, what they did with Aldon (the one exception I can think of) and the clarity and strength of Harbaugh's comments are also both unprecedented, so once the info is out (if need be) I hope they're the first to go the route you're suggesting, record be damned.

 

[Popeyejones]

ou are now suggesting that the NFLPA can dictate a coach's decision to sit or start a player. Read that again.

This will be my last reply because frankly I believe you are willfully reading things into this that aren't there just to be argumentative. Take the bold for example. I have made no such claim, yet there you put it forth as though you could quote it right from my writing.

LOL. You have made the claim. In fact, you're about to make it again below.

I am suggesting the NFLPA would take serious issue with a coach punishing a player based upon a finding of PED use that had not completed due process

[/quote]

There's is nothing to be confused about. You are suggesting that the NFLPA can make legitimate claims and possibly ultimately dictate a coach's lineup decisions. I am noting the ridiculousness of that supposition. That's all that's happening.

 

[Marvin49]

Any comparison of course involves similarities and differences. It is the nature of comparison. The question is the degree to which the similarities and differences are relevant.

To try to make your case that these differences are relevant to the topic under discussion, you are now suggesting that the NFLPA can dictate a coach's decision to sit or start a player. Read that again.

This is before we even get into the conduct unbecoming clause in every single NFL contract that allows for the next rung up in organizational decision making, or the basic point that teams regularly cut players with no stated cause whatsoever. The NFLPA may get involved for game checks when conduct unbecoming is invoked, but they have no control whatsoever over who is and is not cut, let alone how coaches manage their starting lineups (which is really just a laughable claim, if that's the one you're making <--- which I assume must be the case, as it's what we're discussing). If Harbaugh chose to sit McDonald or Baalke chose to cut him the NFLPA can say bubkis, and that's the way it should be.

This will be my last reply because frankly I believe you are willfully reading things into this that aren't there just to be argumentative. Take the bold for example. I have made no such claim, yet there you put it forth as though you could quote it right from my writing.

I am suggesting the NFLPA would take serious issue with a coach punishing a player based upon a finding of PED use that had not completed due process, which has been clearly defined and agreed to through the CBA. Get that through your head, if a coach chooses to punish a player based upon "conduct unbecoming", there is no recourse the player can take because, ding ding ding, the clause you mentioned above. PED use has no such out. As far as I can tell the team MUST wait for the full banned substance process to complete before punishment is then handed down by the league.

If you can prove otherwise I would concede my point, but up to now you are talking around me.

I think you guys are arguing semantics.

You are arguing that we are talking about 2 different types of violations of the CBA...those spelled out directly in the CBA (drugs, PEDs) and those that are more...shall we say "ethereal". Conduct Unbecoming is a broad term that can take many forms.

You are largely correct, but the larger point that I think you are missing is the way teams dole out punishment for things that have not worked themselves out yet.

We have a legal system. There is a League punishment system. Why do fans hold OTHER teams up to a mythological standard that NO team lives up to because they don't impose their own brand of punishment when there are already 2 governing bodies who do just that?

Expecting a team to sit a player or pass judgment on how they deal with the situation is to me disingenuous...especially when its a rival who already hates the team involved.

 

[Popeyejones]

Nah, it's not semantics IMO. It's a substantive disagreement.

The NFLPA can get involved in the dolling out of suspensions without pay.

They have absolutely no jurisdiction whatsoever over how a team sets its starting lineup. Full stop.

 

[Largent80]

Any hedges as to the next 9er arrest?

 

[Laloosh]

[tweet]https://twitter.com/MikeGarafolo/status/506907835477659648[/tweet]

 

[loafoftatupu]

You could very well be right. I have no idea. I'm not defending him.

We know you aren't Marv. You are the OP of the thread man.

You had to have seen the Twitter feed and just sighed. Then you got proactive. Like eating a bullet you clicked submit.

Poor guy... all that spin and these players just throw it away.

DV is a tough deal, but I genuinely feel like I would rather this whole thing be a real misunderstanding. Like there wasn't anything at all. So many women are painted into a corner, they have children and they want the father to be there and they want their family intact. That is where they have to decide whether or not they are going to repair the situation or stop it from potentially happening again. Young men, especially those that play a violent sport for a living need to control their emotions and understand how to manage anger.

It is something that can even happen from a guy who was raised in a loving family. Sometimes I think that dealing with anger should be taught by professionals in addition to parents setting a strong example. I am talking when the children are young. Probably reaching there, but so many other horrific events are the result of uncontrolled anger.

 

[Marvin49]

You could very well be right. I have no idea. I'm not defending him.

We know you aren't Marv. You are the OP of the thread man.

You had to have seen the Twitter feed and just sighed. Then you got proactive. Like eating a bullet you clicked submit.

Poor guy... all that spin and these players just throw it away.

DV is a tough deal, but I genuinely feel like I would rather this whole thing be a real misunderstanding. Like there wasn't anything at all. So many women are painted into a corner, they have children and they want the father to be there and they want their family intact. That is where they have to decide whether or not they are going to repair the situation or stop it from potentially happening again. Young men, especially those that play a violent sport for a living need to control their emotions and understand how to manage anger.

It is something that can result from a guy who was raised in a loving family. Sometimes I think that dealing with anger should be taught by professionals in addition to parents setting a strong example. I am talking when the children are young. Probably reaching there, but so many other horrific events are the result of uncontrolled anger.

...I can neither confirm nor deny the use of a 4 letter word...

 

[Marvin49]

on one hand...

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/vernon- ... e-anything

“I didn’t see anything, I didn’t hear anything.,” Davis said Tuesday. “I don’t know what went on over there. I wish I could put my finger on it, but I don’t know. All I do know is Ray is a great guy. He’s awesome.

“He’s got great character. Everyone on the team knows that. He’s a guy of good integrity, great character, hard worker, good player, comes to work each and every day.”




yet on the other...

Cam Inman ‏@CamInman · 9m
SJPD chief issued synopsis of Ray McDonald arrest, says incident occurred at 2 am and "the victim had visible injuries." No further info




Sigh.

 

[RolandDeschain]

One thing I'm sure we can all agree on is that it's not looking good for Ray McDonald right now. Not like the incident with Kaep/Lockette in Miami, for instance, where the BS-o-meter went off right away when the story broke.

 

[Laloosh]

on one hand...

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/vernon- ... e-anything

“I didn’t see anything, I didn’t hear anything.,” Davis said Tuesday. “I don’t know what went on over there. I wish I could put my finger on it, but I don’t know. All I do know is Ray is a great guy. He’s awesome.

“He’s got great character. Everyone on the team knows that. He’s a guy of good integrity, great character, hard worker, good player, comes to work each and every day.”




yet on the other...

Cam Inman ‏@CamInman · 9m
SJPD chief issued synopsis of Ray McDonald arrest, says incident occurred at 2 am and "the victim had visible injuries." No further info




Sigh.

"I didn't see anything, I didn't hear anything... but let me tell you about how great this guy is." -Teammate

"The victim had visible injuries." -Complete Stranger

He better have a really good story.

 

[Scottemojo]

Done commenting here about various conspiracy theories...just updating with tweets on the topic...

Cam Inman ‏@CamInman · 11m
Harbaugh says 2 principles at play w/ McDonald "(1.) we’ll not tolerate domestic violence. (2.) is we’re firm belivers in due process."

Cam Inman ‏@CamInman · 11m
#49ers Jim Harbaugh: I strongly oppose domestic violence or violence toward children. It will not be tolerated.

Matt Barrows ‏@mattbarrows · 11m
Harbaugh said there's "no tolerance" for anyone who physically abuses a woman or a child. Says there's no room on his team for that.

Matt Barrows ‏@mattbarrows · 11m
Still, he said he's also a believer in due process and that process must be "concluded" before we make judgments.



I do just want to make one comment tho. Some of you have postulated that when the woman finds out the money they are losing she'll backtrack and this thing will go away. That can't happen. Law doesn't work that way.

Unfortunately, I have some experience with this. The law is written to protect the victim...even from themselves. Once a report is made, the police and DA will proceed regardless of what the victim says or does. She can't stop it.

Its written that way because so many victims of domestic abuse backtrack and then get abused again. It is essentially taken out of their hands.

In my case, a relative got into an argument with his wife. She got angry and hit HIM. When he put his arms up to block, she was bruised on the arm because she hit his watch. She left angry and went to the hospital. She told the nurses she got into a fight with her husband and the hospital called the police, as they should do. The police took the report but she didn't word it as "I hit him" because she was afraid SHE'D get in trouble.

Next thing you know, they are at his house arresting him...in front of his son no less. She tried to immediately backtrack but they wouldn't let her. The case dragged on for 6 months with the DA CONSTANTLY trying to get him to take a plea and he refused because he didn't do anything. Almost tore the family apart.

It finally ended because myself and a few others sat down with her, she told us what happened, and we submitted accounts of that discussion to his lawyer. Effectively, the DA didn't have a case....but MAN did they try to get him to plead guilty over and over and over.

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with the system. It sucked for my relative, but I understand why the law is written the way it is. Its written to protect people who are unable or unwilling to protect themselves.

Does this mean that Ray McDonald is in the same situation? Absolutely not. I have no idea what happened that night. If he struck her, strangled her, or whatever....cut him. Put him in jail. Hell...if was legal, castrate him.

I only express the above to explain exactly why I am hesitant to throw him under the bus already. Not minimizing anything. If he did it, he needs to go away.

Marvin, so what you are saying is that even though there is a law to protect a victim from themselves, In the case you personally know of the lady changed her story and the charges were dropped? Which is what I am saying is going to happen here.

 

[loafoftatupu]

on one hand...

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/vernon- ... e-anything

“I didn’t see anything, I didn’t hear anything.,” Davis said Tuesday. “I don’t know what went on over there. I wish I could put my finger on it, but I don’t know. All I do know is Ray is a great guy. He’s awesome.

“He’s got great character. Everyone on the team knows that. He’s a guy of good integrity, great character, hard worker, good player, comes to work each and every day.”

That's really great stuff... He didn't see/hear anything. Isn't it OBVIOUS that this whole thing didn't happen. Its a conspiracy. Gotta love the players speaking out... "He's Awesome" Sure he is Vern.


Hey, I don't doubt that tomorrow AM the Hawks could have their own players arrested for something, but i sure in the hell am going to enjoy the roster being intact while I can.

 

[Popeyejones]

yet on the other...

Cam Inman ‏@CamInman · 9m
SJPD chief issued synopsis of Ray McDonald arrest, says incident occurred at 2 am and "the victim had visible injuries." No further info

"Light bruising on her neck and arms."

Either way, nah, I don't care about the context, any bruising on someone's neck is a non-starter, IMO.

Also, I've never seen the GF before, but depending on her background "light bruising" could mean a lot of different things. If she's dark-skinned and the cop isn't black, it would be far from the first time that a doltish cop accidentally understated the extent of bruising on a woman's body.

 

[Marvin49]

Done commenting here about various conspiracy theories...just updating with tweets on the topic...

Cam Inman ‏@CamInman · 11m
Harbaugh says 2 principles at play w/ McDonald "(1.) we’ll not tolerate domestic violence. (2.) is we’re firm belivers in due process."

Cam Inman ‏@CamInman · 11m
#49ers Jim Harbaugh: I strongly oppose domestic violence or violence toward children. It will not be tolerated.

Matt Barrows ‏@mattbarrows · 11m
Harbaugh said there's "no tolerance" for anyone who physically abuses a woman or a child. Says there's no room on his team for that.

Matt Barrows ‏@mattbarrows · 11m
Still, he said he's also a believer in due process and that process must be "concluded" before we make judgments.



I do just want to make one comment tho. Some of you have postulated that when the woman finds out the money they are losing she'll backtrack and this thing will go away. That can't happen. Law doesn't work that way.

Unfortunately, I have some experience with this. The law is written to protect the victim...even from themselves. Once a report is made, the police and DA will proceed regardless of what the victim says or does. She can't stop it.

Its written that way because so many victims of domestic abuse backtrack and then get abused again. It is essentially taken out of their hands.

In my case, a relative got into an argument with his wife. She got angry and hit HIM. When he put his arms up to block, she was bruised on the arm because she hit his watch. She left angry and went to the hospital. She told the nurses she got into a fight with her husband and the hospital called the police, as they should do. The police took the report but she didn't word it as "I hit him" because she was afraid SHE'D get in trouble.

Next thing you know, they are at his house arresting him...in front of his son no less. She tried to immediately backtrack but they wouldn't let her. The case dragged on for 6 months with the DA CONSTANTLY trying to get him to take a plea and he refused because he didn't do anything. Almost tore the family apart.

It finally ended because myself and a few others sat down with her, she told us what happened, and we submitted accounts of that discussion to his lawyer. Effectively, the DA didn't have a case....but MAN did they try to get him to plead guilty over and over and over.

Believe it or not, I don't have a problem with the system. It sucked for my relative, but I understand why the law is written the way it is. Its written to protect people who are unable or unwilling to protect themselves.

Does this mean that Ray McDonald is in the same situation? Absolutely not. I have no idea what happened that night. If he struck her, strangled her, or whatever....cut him. Put him in jail. Hell...if was legal, castrate him.

I only express the above to explain exactly why I am hesitant to throw him under the bus already. Not minimizing anything. If he did it, he needs to go away.

Marvin, so what you are saying is that even though there is a law to protect a victim from themselves, In the case you personally know of the lady changed her story and the charges were dropped? Which is what I am saying is going to happen here.

hrmm...

I guess you could look at it that way and that is the long term effect...and it also had the added benefit of actually being true....

....but that 6 month ordeal wasn't just like "she changed her mind, now he's in the clear". It took multiple people vouching for his character and a written declaration FROM SOMEONE ELSE that she admitted she was never abused.

The police and DA were looking for evidence to convict him tho in the absence of new testimony from her. Her initial statement to the police was very different than the statement she gave myself and other members of the family.

So...as I said, I guess you may be correct that the long term could be that he gets away with it because she changes her statement, but the police will investigate and look for other people to corroborate her original version of events. In order for the police to get nothing all of the players plus anyone else there would have to change their stories as well.

 

[Marvin49]

on one hand...

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/vernon- ... e-anything

“I didn’t see anything, I didn’t hear anything.,” Davis said Tuesday. “I don’t know what went on over there. I wish I could put my finger on it, but I don’t know. All I do know is Ray is a great guy. He’s awesome.

“He’s got great character. Everyone on the team knows that. He’s a guy of good integrity, great character, hard worker, good player, comes to work each and every day.”

That's really great stuff... He didn't see/hear anything. Isn't it OBVIOUS that this whole thing didn't happen. Its a conspiracy. Gotta love the players speaking out... "He's Awesome" Sure he is Vern.


Hey, I don't doubt that tomorrow AM the Hawks could have their own players arrested for something, but i sure in the hell am going to enjoy the roster being intact while I can.

The ironic thing is that I was hoping for a quiet offseason because last years was eventful. Little did I know...