Pete Ball

[CelticWolf12]

How this current Seahawks team is built and how Seattle is performing week in and week out is on Pete Carroll!

It’s “Pete ball” all the time, every time regardless of Seattle’s strengths and weaknesses both offensively and defensively. I am tired of watching PC not change or evolve as a head coach. Seattle is wasting the talents of Russell Wilson, DK Metcalf, Lockett, Everett, etc. This “Pete ball” philosophy only works with a young inexperience team/ QB, a good solid O-line and a mega talented defense! Without those three elements, “Pete ball” has not and will not work.

I was super optimistic about Shane Waldron coming over to the Haws and bringing the Rams playbook full of deception, movement, counters, screens, different personnel groupings, etc. with him. Unfortunately, Pete put an end to 99% of that stuff immediately, and is now is exclusively running the same old obvious, figured out, zero innovation “Pete ball” crap!

It’s the same old repetitive offensive and defensive game plan, week after week and game after game. It sucks watching teams like the Patriots with a rookie QB significantly alter their game plan from week to week both on offense and defense, knowing full well that Seattle will not change “what they do” regardless of who their opponent is. I am sick and tired of watching Pete Carroll play not to lose instead of playing to win!

With all that being said, there will be huge consequences the next couple of years if Pete Carroll stays on as the HC

1. Russell Wilson will leave. Why would he want to stay here to continue playing “Pete ball” behind a subpar offensive line? His talent is being wasted…big time!

2. DK Metcalf will not resign in Seattle. He is all but gone! Why would he want to be part of the “Pete ball” offense, when he could sign with a team that has a dynamic offense that will actually utilize his talents.

3. Quality offensive/Defensive coordinators won’t want to play in Seattle for a coach that is primitive, inflexible and only sees the game through one (his) lens.

The worst (and scary) part of all of all this is that PC thinks his current system and philosophy IS NOT the problem with this team, but rather it’s the refs or the positioning of the players, lack of talent, etc. I listed to the press conference this week (as well as the interview on 710 radio) and Pete still thinks that HIS philosophy will win in today’s NFL. When asked about play calling against Arizona, Pete said that the plays that were called were correct! PC said they needed to tweak some thing and that they are playing hard! You think so Pete? PC also said Russ did some, “really good thing”??? Really Pete?

It was a good run, but there is no question that Pete needs to go. Let the new coach bring in new staff and then make a determination about Russell’s future here in Seattle. I have a feeling that offensive coordinators and coaches around the NFL would be salivating to coach a QB talent like Russ!

Go Hawks!

 

[AgentDib]

If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?

 

[Fade]

If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?

The Seahawks early in the game literally ran the ball 10 straight times. Wilson didn't attempt his 3rd pass until the 2nd quarter.

So the logic would be, well, they're just trying to setup playaction, right? That would make some sense.

Wrong.

They only ran playaction 6 times. Wilson was 5/6 on those plays, the incompletion was dropped by Metcalf.

They're only running to shorten the game, not to score points, setup playaction, exploit a matchup, or anything like that.

Rope-a-dope. Try to win it in the 4th. They consistently play the exact same way, irregardless of their personnel or the opponents personnel. They are one of the worst coached teams in the league.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?

Predictable playcalling, that's a tell tale sign of Pete Ball.

All of the dynamic unpredictable layered McVay scheme and playcalling we were promised when Waldron was hired was gone after the Colts game.

That's been Pete's M/O forever, when things aren't going well offensively he turtles back into what he's comfortable with and thinks works.

Just because you haven't seen a lot of running doesn't mean Pete doesn't want to run, it just means it's been so unsuccessful since Carson got hurt that he and Waldron have had to abandon it because it's 2nd and 3rd and longs all game.

Thus the terrible time of possession and failed 3rd down conversions..........and that's the biggest indictment of Pete this year, his offense is so inept he can't even run Pete Ball.

 

[Elemas]

I full expected to open this thread and only see “doesn’t work”.

Well, it does if you have 4 leaf clovers in your pocket and somehow found the lamp with the genie that grants you 40+ wishes (or however many times Russ has nailed Pete out).

 

[Fade]

If "Pete Ball" is running the ball heavily and trying to control the clock then those are the two things that we are definitely not doing. However, I realize that the beauty in a made up term is that you can make it into whatever you want it to be at any time. So what exactly was "Pete Ball" about the offensive scheme vs. Arizona?

Predictable playcalling, that's a tell tale sign of Pete Ball.

All of the dynamic unpredictable layered McVay scheme and playcalling we were promised when Waldron was hired was gone after the Colts game.

That's been Pete's M/O forever, when things aren't going well offensively he turtles back into what he's comfortable with and thinks works.

Just because you haven't seen a lot of running doesn't mean Pete doesn't want to run, it just means it's been so unsuccessful since Carson got hurt that he and Waldron have had to abandon it because it's 2nd and 3rd and longs all game.

Thus the terrible time of possession and failed 3rd down conversions..........and that's the biggest indictment of Pete this year, his offense is so inept he can't even run Pete Ball.

Yes.

 

[pinksheets]

The only time Russ won anything of consequence was in peak Peteball. It's a scheme that works to his strengths and covers up his deficiencies (reading defenses, quick passes, etc.)

He's not a Manning or a Rodgers or a Brady.

Can anyone point me to any source, though, that indicates Waldron is being withheld from running a McVay style offense by Pete? Or are we just making assumptions because we overrate the talent of our QB and assume the struggles he's had his entire career under multiple OCs are someone else's fault?

The way people use the term here, though, is arbitrary and fits whatever need there is to divert blame from a QB who seemingly can't execute the offensive style Waldron brings.

DCs have Russ figured out. He can hurt them anyways by being elite at deep shots and accuracy there, but when he's not perfect he can't do much because the limited stuff he's comfortable with gets taken away by scheme and Russ can't take what's given.

 

[Elemas]

While we’re at it, anyone have proof Waldron is free to call plays?

Because this offense looks the same year after year after..

 

[pinksheets]

While we’re at it, anyone have proof Waldron is free to call plays?

Because this offense looks the same year after year after..

Could very well be because we've had the same QB with the same issues. We can go back every season and see Russ missing open receivers, hesitating, and hurling it down the sidelines for a jump ball. His elite deep accuracy makes that work sometimes, but it's hard to bank on that for a full season.

 

[Elemas]

Definitely part of it. Hard to deny.

 

[TwistedHusky]

Whether Wilson is to blame or not is immaterial.

Pete is a coach that is unable to adapt or change, while the NFL changes around him and makes him increasingly irrelevant.

A top NFL QB is the most important part of a team's success, the most difficult to obtain, and one of the most accurate indicators of a team's success. (I think the only outlier is Houston & maybe the Pats)

Pete has no value. Wilson MIGHT have value.

So it makes sense that if Pete, a tremendously flawed coach, cannot succeed with Wilson - it does not mean someone else could not.

As Largent pointed out, Pete cannot even run his own offense right now. That isn't Wilson's fault. It is a consequence of the roster we built and the decisions we made/make.

Wilson does not do a lot of things you expect a QB to do well. But he does enough exceptionally well that he can succeed despite that. And the take he cannot be effective without a run game is lazy, he has been plenty effective without a run game in the past.

Pete is has run his course. He is borderline useless right now. Wilson MIGHT be able to be effective under another coach.

Or we could start over, never even get back to the success level we were at 3 years ago for 5+ years, and lament what might have been if Wilson starts succeeding elsewhere.

PeteBall is a symptom of someone that has run out of ideas. Ty Willingham used to do it too. It will keep you near .500 and maybe a bit above but you will never accomplish anything of worth with it.

 

[pinksheets]

But we have become more and more pass heavy since 2015 and it hasn't done anything but pad Russ's stats and highlight what he can't do.

I guess let's... Lean into that? What exactly is Russ not being allowed to do? If anything, Pete has conceded to and coddled a limited QB too much instead of holding him accountable.

Russ hasn't gotten us anywhere without an historic defense and a top 5 run game propping him up. He contributed, absolutely, but he needs a lot of help.

 

[Elemas]

You all know why we can’t agree? I think it’s very simple. It’s a combination of both. Many factors obviously but, it truly is a combination of both.

Not all that enlightening (I used to be pro-RW btw). Maybe if one changes, the other succeeds? I don’t know…

 

[AgentDib]

Rather than making up a bunch of complete nonsense, let's look at the first three drives under discussion and whether the call Succeeded or Failed.

1) Run(S) Pass(S) Pass(F) Pass(F) Punt. Drive stalled due to two consecutive sacks on passing plays.

2) Run(S) Run(S) Run(S), Run(S), Pass(S), Run(S), Run(S), Pitch Fumble(F), Run(F), Punt. Drive stalled due to Wilson pitching it 13 yards backwards leading to a 3rd and 20. Blaming the SIX successful earlier runs is completely ignorant, as is the resulting 3rd and 20 play call no matter what it was.

3) Run(S) Run(S), Pass(S), Run(F), Pass(F), Pass(F), Field Goal. There is one run play that failed here (1 yard carry on first and goal), followed by two failed passes into the end zone. Without talking about coverages and individual plays nothing here looks off from a R/P perspective.

If the opposing defense is daring you to run the ball, and running the ball is working, then it's possible that infinite consecutive running plays is the correct decision. It is entirely situational and the absolutes here are tiresome and reductive and I believe completely disingenuous. We did not run the ball 10 straight times to failure, but rather six straight times with success. And then we got away from the run after this for no good reason.

"Predictable" also has to be the laziest possible hindsight take. I don't buy that you knew that any of these plays were coming or even understand the differences between the plays themselves. I didn't see a repeated call in these first three drives.

 

[TwistedHusky]

But Russ has always had a tremendously flawed HC calling plays.

It is a long shot but it is a shot, what if Wilson had better play design and had a coach that could work within his limitations?

We know what Wilson + Pete looks like and we know it isn't working and likely won't.

Why wouldn't Wilson + ? be the next logical step?

Is there any potential pathway to success with Pete + ?, because without a great QB you are dead in the water. And there does not seem to be a reasonable expectation of getting a great QB if you replace Wilson.

EIther Wilson can be a great QB or he cannot - but if he can that is literally your only pathway to success besides burning everything to the ground.
But you have at least a reasonable expectation you can get a good or even great coach if you replace Pete.

Wouldn't it make sense to at least explore the possibility?

 

[Sgt. Largent]

"Predictable" also has to be the laziest possible hindsight take. I don't buy that you knew that any of these plays were coming or even understand the differences between the plays themselves. I didn't see a repeated call in these first three drives.

Right, that's why other defenses (Pick six in playoff game vs Rams last year), our own players and even ex players have said for years the Hawks run one of the most predictable undynamic offenses in the entire league.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... tenheimer/

You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything, other than you don't understand the nuance, layers and scheme of offensive playcalling.

O-line tells, formations, where the TE's and WR's line up, same plays run on same down and distances, etc.

Those are all on film for teams to watch, and to the person whether it be other defenses, our own players, media, you name it...........all say the same thing. The Hawk's offense is plain vanilla and predictable.

For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script. That's it, and now with no Carson, a very bad O-line and a broken Russell Wilson, a high school coach could scheme against this offense. Thus 13 pts in two games.

 

[Fade]

But we have become more and more pass heavy since 2015 and it hasn't done anything but pad Russ's stats and highlight what he can't do.

I guess let's... Lean into that? What exactly is Russ not being allowed to do? If anything, Pete has conceded to and coddled a limited QB too much instead of holding him accountable.

Russ hasn't gotten us anywhere without an historic defense and a top 5 run game propping him up. He contributed, absolutely, but he needs a lot of help.

Dan Marino didn't win much, either. I chalk it up to the Dolphins not building a better team around, Marino.

You have to build around the QB properly. Invest in a top flight O-Line, 3-4 top receiving targets, go all in. The Seahawks currently have the 4th most cap space in the league, and our slated to have $60M next off-season.

Just look around the league, and see what kind of investments teams make into their Offensive Lines when they get a Franchise QB. How many weapons they acquire, what kind of offensive coaches they bring on board to help foster their development. Pete would grade very low in these areas in comparison and has done a reprehensible job on offense these last 4 years, drafted D.K. in the 2nd a few years ago, that's about it.

Pete instead chose to stick with his philosophy after 2017 when they tore it down last time. Build a defense and a running game, and just have the QB play off of it. Both the defense and the running game been terrible to mediocre in this span. The team is poorly coached, and constructed. You could trade for any QB you want and put him on the Seahawks and they will still lose, never doing anything in the playoffs. This a franchise in desperate need of change at the top.

 

[Fade]

Right, that's why other defenses (Pick six in playoff game vs Rams last year), our own players and even ex players have said for years the Hawks run one of the most predictable undynamic offenses in the entire league.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... tenheimer/

You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything, other than you don't understand the nuance, layers and scheme of offensive playcalling.

O-line tells, formations, where the TE's and WR's line up, same plays run on same down and distances, etc.

Those are all on film for teams to watch, and to the person whether it be other defenses, our own players, media, you name it...........all say the same thing. The Hawk's offense is plain vanilla and predictable.

For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script. That's it, and now with no Carson, a very bad O-line and a broken Russell Wilson, a high school coach could scheme against this offense. Thus 13 pts in two games.

OMG! This is so right. Why can't everyone see it.

 

[AgentDib]

But Russ has always had a tremendously flawed HC calling plays... It is a long shot but it is a shot, what if Wilson had better play design and had a coach that could work within his limitations?

Do you even realize how much you're begging the question there? Yes, if PC is 'tremendously flawed' and is calling bad offensive plays then obviously we should get a look at Wilson with some better plays. The issue is that you don't actually know that.

Russ has had a stellar career thus far despite limitations which you seem to be acknowledging. Who is to say that with a different coach and scheme he would be even better? That's completely unsubstantiated, and frankly improbable anytime you are talking about a player who has been viewed as one of the best. Isn't it possible that Bevell's RPO and a heavy dose of Lynch was enormously helpful to Russ? That having defenses stack the box against the run enabled him to use his best weapon in the downfield shot?

You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything

Given the context, do you think that I was discussing run and pass outcomes to talk about predictability, or to address the awful take about our running too frequently?

I was aware of Turbin's view that Schotty's offense was too predictable and it did carry weight then. Given that we replaced Schotty with a coach from a scheme known for creativity I'd be very interested in a take from a similarly credible source now regarding on our current offensive woes.

For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script.

I honestly wish you weren't so wrong on that. Our deep passing game would still be explosive and we'd all still be enjoying the Let Russ Cook era.

 

[Sgt. Largent]

I was aware of Turbin's view that Schotty's offense was too predictable and it did carry weight then. Given that we replaced Schotty with a coach from a scheme known for creativity I'd be very interested in a take from a similarly credible source now regarding on our current offensive woes..

Please, give me examples of any drastic creative changes from Schotty's offense to Waldron's.

Other than the Colts game when we had Eskridge, Carson and our O-line was healthy you could see those wrinkles. But since then? It's been a slow decline back into predictable uninspired Pete Ball.

I have absolutely NO idea how you've watched this offense this year and thought "yeah, this is such a dynamic unpredictable offense!"

You're just arguing to argue, cause ain't no one in the entire league or in any sort of knowledgeable media agrees with you.