Pete Ball

John63

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HD48":n4mgk1ya said:
As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.


I hear SImss and agreed with most of what he said except the running part last year he has over 500 yards and prior to injury over 100. and before the injury, he made several Russ-type runs and scrambles. That said and as many have said the PC style of play is imprinted all over the offense and has hurt Wilson's development a lot. DO I think it is too late. now you can tell by the first half to eh first game before PC took over again. The problem is it will not be with PC as a coach as PC will never allow the offense to stray for too long or to far from what he wants.
 

hoxrox

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Fade":2kjpx7s4 said:
Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

And there are many things to fault the HC for.

But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.
 

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HD48":2yp2m3q5 said:
As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.

Adding on to this.

He doesn't have the legs to overcome dysfunctional, bad O-Line play to the degree he once did anymore. But when he gets protection his numbers are still videogame breaking.

People around here will feel different, If Wilson goes to say, New Orleans. Top flight O-Line, which is all Wilson needs.
And he is back to putting up numbers. Y'see Wilson lost his cheat code elusiveness back in 2018, it didn't stop him from putting up the best numbers of his career from then until this bad stretch. But like how Dak played like crap last week with a banged up O-Line. Wilson is no longer immune to the same effects.

Meanwhile, Seattle is stuck with Pete turning the team into the Lions. It really reminds me of the dysfunctional McCarthy, Rodgers years. Once the QB stops believing in the coach, it's over.

Twisted is right. If you have to place your bets. Betting on Pete = 0% chance. The Packers would be a laughing stock right now had they kept McCarthy and traded Rodgers.

First, Pete has to go. It is time.
Second, the new regime evaluates if it's better to start over entirely, or revamp around Wilson. Wilson may not give them a choice. But the common factor is Pete cannot be involved going forward.

Pete is the worst coach in the division, and his personnel track record w/the assistance of JS since 2013 in both Free Agency & the Draft shows they are incapable, and broken as a partnership. He is 70 and you have to go back nearly a decade to point to the last time they killed an off-season.

Understandably, you're not going to kill it every off-season, but it can't be this anemic for this long at failing to bring in and/or develop blue chip talent. The have some nice role-players, bit-parts, and depth. But like Wilson said 2 years ago, they needed some stars. The front office responded by spending $50M on JAGs. Panicked, and sold the farm for Adams a few months later. That offseason is why they're at where they're at.

Change at the top must occur, or SeaLions it is. Whether Wilson is here or not.
 

toffee

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Fade":vbofnn61 said:
HD48":vbofnn61 said:
As usual, two things can be true but ppl tend to forget that when they care more about being right than anything else.
So with that being said, Pete needs to go and so does Russ.

Some guys on here asking for 'proof' of Pete not letting Waldron call plays because they know thats obviously impossible to do so in their minds that argument is 'won'. How about plausibility and/or common sense - heard of that?
When a team/organization plays the same basic offensive (and defensive)scheme throughout changing OCs/DCs then I can go look for the common denominator and thats the HC who btw has the last word on anything especially here in Seattle. PC runs the show around here and ultimately he wants his brand of football tb played no matter who's the Coordinator. I dont feel like that is or should be news or even debatable.
When you as a HC get to a point where in a presser you basically confirm having come to your wit's end, you're done and it absolutely should be his last season.

As for Russ. He has never in his life played in offensive schemes like Brady, Brees or now Stafford in LA.
With regards to the lack of sophistication in the scheme Russ has been exposed to, Chris Simms said 'he doesn't even know what he doesn't know' and 'all he knows is the way they do it, just don't turn the ball over and the defense will do the rest'. He also added 'you see him missing open receivers in the middle of the field because he's too stuck in thinking about not forcing turnovers rather than making plays and just letting it rip'
That pretty much summed it all up + the fact that he def has lost a step or two, he doesnt seem to be escaping as much, there are almost none of his runs anymore and the more he has to play from the pocket, the more we see him struggling and honestly at times being exposed. The worse he gets with his feet/legs the more I believe that he's not close to being as good as a Rodgers or Brady. I guess after this season it'll be in both sides best interest to part ways.

Adding on to this.

He doesn't have the legs to overcome dysfunctional, bad O-Line play to the degree he once did anymore. But when he gets protection his numbers are still videogame breaking.

People around here will feel different, If Wilson goes to say, New Orleans. Top flight O-Line, which is all Wilson needs.
And he is back to putting up numbers. Y'see Wilson lost his cheat code elusiveness back in 2018, it didn't stop him from putting up the best numbers of his career from then until this bad stretch. But like how Dak played like crap last week with a banged up O-Line. Wilson is no longer immune to the same effects.

Meanwhile, Seattle is stuck with Pete turning the team into the Lions. It really reminds me of the dysfunctional McCarthy, Rodgers years. Once the QB stops believing in the coach, it's over.

Twisted is right. If you have to place your bets. Betting on Pete = 0% chance. The Packers would be a laughing stock right now had they kept McCarthy and traded Rodgers.

First, Pete has to go. It is time.
Second, the new regime evaluates if it's better to start over entirely, or revamp around Wilson. Wilson may not give them a choice. But the common factor is Pete cannot be involved going forward.

Pete is the worst coach in the division, and his personnel track record w/the assistance of JS since 2013 in both Free Agency & the Draft shows they are incapable, and broken as a partnership. He is 70 and you have to go back nearly a decade to point to the last time they killed an off-season.

Understandably, you're not going to kill it every off-season, but it can't be this anemic for this long at failing to bring in and/or develop blue chip talent. The have some nice role-players, bit-parts, and depth. But like Wilson said 2 years ago, they needed some stars. The front office responded by spending $50M on JAGs. Panicked, and sold the farm for Adams a few months later. That offseason is why they're at where they're at.

Change at the top must occur, or SeaLions it is. Whether Wilson is here or not.
We should take a discount and trade Wilson to Saints. He has done so much for the Hawks, it's time for the Hawks to take one for him. Right?

Sent from my IN2017 using Tapatalk
 

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hoxrox":3ut4594j said:
Fade":3ut4594j said:
Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

And there are many things to fault the HC for.

But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.

Why not go back to that under center, outside zone, zoom motion, boot action offense from week 1? Why would Shane implement something that looked like straight out of the Rams playbook, and have that much success, and then abandon it?

They are still having crazy success on playaction, and rollouts. It hasn't been figured out. They just stopped doing it outside of handful of times a game. Why?
 

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toffee":ux9zhsdv said:
He has done so much for the Hawks, it's time for the Hawks to take one for him. Right?
Absolutely not. I'm just pointing out that people who are bitching about Wilson now. Will be bitching if he got traded, and started balling out. Especially if the picks he would garner don't amount to anything.
 

hoxrox

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Fade":1sy1oguz said:
hoxrox":1sy1oguz said:
Fade":1sy1oguz said:
Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

And there are many things to fault the HC for.

But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.

Why not go back to that under center, outside zone, zoom motion, boot action offense from week 1? Why would Shane implement something that looked like straight out of the Rams playbook, and have that much success, and then abandon it?

They are still having crazy success on playaction, and rollouts. It hasn't been figured out. They just stopped doing it outside of handful of times a game. Why?

These are fair questions. I just wouldn't automatically assume it's because Pete isn't open to running these concepts, or why even allow it in the first place. At the end of the day, he just wants to win.
 

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hoxrox":31nzfgwu said:
Fade":31nzfgwu said:
hoxrox":31nzfgwu said:
Fade":31nzfgwu said:
Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

And there are many things to fault the HC for.

But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.

Why not go back to that under center, outside zone, zoom motion, boot action offense from week 1? Why would Shane implement something that looked like straight out of the Rams playbook, and have that much success, and then abandon it?

They are still having crazy success on playaction, and rollouts. It hasn't been figured out. They just stopped doing it outside of handful of times a game. Why?

These are fair questions. I just wouldn't automatically assume it's because Pete isn't open to running these concepts, or why even allow it in the first place. At the end of the day, he just wants to win.
That's my question for people who subscribe to the Pete ruins the party theory. Why allow all that stuff to be implemented all through camp leading up to game 1 in the first place? Not 1 sane person would do that. Add that extremely unlikey piece of evidence to the lack of seeing Pete's preferred run the ball all day offense and it just doesn't wash. This theory also requires one to accept that Russell has no material affect on these problems, which is practically impossible for someone with the ball in their hands every play.

This whole thing to me breaks down to whether one thinks Russell is capable or not. Simple as that. Everything else is just noise
 
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CelticWolf12

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hoxrox":3j67o9tw said:
Fade":3j67o9tw said:
Pete literally said, "Shane Waldron is open to the things we've been doing around here."

After week 2 or 3. (Pete does a lot of pressers and I don't feel like digging through to find it.) Because the offense started creeping back to what it had looked like before.

So let me get this straight. You think Wilson has all of that success week 1 running this style of offense. And he decided: no fam, this ain't it. Don't roll me out, don't run play-action. Go back to the way if was before, like what we were doing last season and year's past. Unbelievable.

No one is debating that the week 1 offense looked great, and unlike what we've seen before.

And there are many things to fault the HC for.

But to think he put the kibosh on something that was so successful, so he could run things his way doesn't make sense at all. A coach known for smashmouth. Yet 40 passes to 11 runs against Green Bay and you’re yammerin about Pete Ball? In light of all evidence that suggests otherwise, you're choosing a narrative.

Bottom line. Russell's unique skillset and tendencies have been figured out by the rest of the league. This makes it hard for ANY OC to draw up an effective and sustainable offense.

Now could he be coached out of those tendencies? That's another debate altogether.

Pete has a history of of altering/changing this Seattle offense REGARDLESS of who the offensive coordinator is. Lets not pretend that Pete is hands-off with this Seahawk offense and gives the OC autonomy to implement the game plan from week to week. In fact, its the exact opposite!

Evidence? Remember the beginning of last season with the "let Russ cook" offense? The first few games (5-0), the Seahawk "let russ cook" offense was extremely successful. Then, when Seattle faced good, quality teams like the Bills, Rams and cardinals (1-3), and Russ threw a couple interceptions (more 2-high safety looks), Pete started to panic and CHANGED this extremely effective offense back to the same old "Pete Ball" crap! Remember PC saying, “We needed to run the football more (down the stretch) and (have) more commitment (to it) to run them out of their fronts..." and “As the season unfolded, it kind of played its way into the style of defenses we were playing and we didn’t adapt as well as I would have liked to,” Carroll said. “And that’s not what the fans want to hear because they want to hear ‘keep throwing the thing all over the yard.’ I don’t care about that..." and “As we came on defensively, I adjusted us some to make sure we were really taking care of the football knowing we could win some games by the way we were playing defense, which you’ve seen us do that for 10 years around here,”

Again, this is Pete's offense and Pete's defense all day every day! Another component of Pete Ball is little to no adjustments from week to week. Evidence? Just this week when Pete was "disappointed" and "had no answer's", Tyler Lockett said the following:

"When you look at what teams are doing consistently week in and week out, nobody is doing that against us, so we have to, like I said, I keep saying adjust because [b]we have to understand what teams are doing[/b]," Lockett continued. "Once we finally figure out the game plan, that’s when we are able to get moving. That’s the thing that we are all trying to figure out and learn because teams are just throwing out different coverages. When you’re getting ready for a week and you see what they are doing consistently, and they aren’t playing any of the stuff they normally do, you have to be able to figure things out faster.”When asked about Lockett's remarks during his Monday press conference, Carroll didn't concur, initially responding, "You're assuming that he's right."

Look, Pete Carroll is a classy head coach and a consummate professional. He will always be remembered for brining a super bowel victory to Seattle! NOBODY can take that away from this Seattle Seahawks organization or the city of Seattle. Sometime, however, its just time! Coaches who stay with one organization for over a decade (Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Mike Tomlin, John Harbaugh, Pete Carroll) are extremely rare. The NFL is always changing and evolving. Offenses AND defenses are eventually figured out! This Seahaws team has been in decline the past few years, slowly and painfully. That's why Seattle needs to go in another direction. A fresh start with a new head coach that can bring a new innovative philosophy!

Go Hawks!
 

pittpnthrs

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Fade":9pkmqh6h said:
Sgt. Largent":9pkmqh6h said:
Right, that's why other defenses (Pick six in playoff game vs Rams last year), our own players and even ex players have said for years the Hawks run one of the most predictable undynamic offenses in the entire league.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/sea ... tenheimer/

You pointing out runs or passes on series doesn't prove anything, other than you don't understand the nuance, layers and scheme of offensive playcalling.

O-line tells, formations, where the TE's and WR's line up, same plays run on same down and distances, etc.

Those are all on film for teams to watch, and to the person whether it be other defenses, our own players, media, you name it...........all say the same thing. The Hawk's offense is plain vanilla and predictable.

For 11 years our offense has been Lynch or Carson pounding the rock into 8-9 man boxes and Russell running around and making plays off script. That's it, and now with no Carson, a very bad O-line and a broken Russell Wilson, a high school coach could scheme against this offense. Thus 13 pts in two games.

OMG! This is so right. Why can't everyone see it.

Mind numbing isnt it?
 

hoxrox

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Celtic Wolff":23nh3gft said:
Pete has a history of of altering/changing this Seattle offense REGARDLESS of who the offensive coordinator is. Lets not pretend that Pete is hands-off with this Seahawk offense and gives the OC autonomy to implement the game plan from week to week. In fact, its the exact opposite!

Evidence? Remember the beginning of last season with the "let Russ cook" offense? The first few games (5-0), the Seahawk "let russ cook" offense was extremely successful. Then, when Seattle faced good, quality teams like the Bills, Rams and cardinals (1-3), and Russ threw a couple interceptions (more 2-high safety looks), Pete started to panic and CHANGED this extremely effective offense back to the same old "Pete Ball" crap! Remember PC saying, “We needed to run the football more (down the stretch) and (have) more commitment (to it) to run them out of their fronts..." and “As the season unfolded, it kind of played its way into the style of defenses we were playing and we didn’t adapt as well as I would have liked to,” Carroll said. “And that’s not what the fans want to hear because they want to hear ‘keep throwing the thing all over the yard.’ I don’t care about that..." and “As we came on defensively, I adjusted us some to make sure we were really taking care of the football knowing we could win some games by the way we were playing defense, which you’ve seen us do that for 10 years around here,”

Again, this is Pete's offense and Pete's defense all day every day! Another component of Pete Ball is little to no adjustments from week to week. Evidence? Just this week when Pete was "disappointed" and "had no answer's", Tyler Lockett said the following:

"When you look at what teams are doing consistently week in and week out, nobody is doing that against us, so we have to, like I said, I keep saying adjust because [b]we have to understand what teams are doing[/b]," Lockett continued. "Once we finally figure out the game plan, that’s when we are able to get moving. That’s the thing that we are all trying to figure out and learn because teams are just throwing out different coverages. When you’re getting ready for a week and you see what they are doing consistently, and they aren’t playing any of the stuff they normally do, you have to be able to figure things out faster.”When asked about Lockett's remarks during his Monday press conference, Carroll didn't concur, initially responding, "You're assuming that he's right."

Look, Pete Carroll is a classy head coach and a consummate professional. He will always be remembered for brining a super bowel victory to Seattle! NOBODY can take that away from this Seattle Seahawks organization or the city of Seattle. Sometime, however, its just time! Coaches who stay with one organization for over a decade (Bill Belichick, Sean Payton, Mike Tomlin, John Harbaugh, Pete Carroll) are extremely rare. The NFL is always changing and evolving. Offenses AND defenses are eventually figured out! This Seahaws team has been in decline the past few years, slowly and painfully. That's why Seattle needs to go in another direction. A fresh start with a new head coach that can bring a new innovative philosophy!

Go Hawks!

Yes when Russ became a turnover machine and couldn't solve for 2 deep, Pete stepped in.

But when the offense was good in game 1 this year? Stepping in for what? Because it had great success? Illogical. Why would it be allowed to be installed in camp in the first place?

No this is Russ Ball we are seeing. Pete has placated Russ to run the offense the way Russ wants to. More shotgun as per usual. Less under center. Holding onto to the ball as per usual. Less quick decisions based on reads. More out routes. Less in routes because he's afraid of the middle. 40 passes to 11 runs? Yeah that's definitely not Pete Ball.

Waldron being "open" to some things they did before? What was Pete supposed to say when he was asked that question. Waldron is not open?

And for the record, I agree that the team needs to move on from the HC.
 

massari

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Pete Ball. Greg Olsen @13:10:

[youtube]b68zz2Hx9No[/youtube]
 

justafan

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Pete handcuffing Waldron after the 1st half of the colts game seems to be a common opinion. Did he take the cuffs off against the Titans for 30 points? Did he put them back on after we took a 17-7 lead against the Vikings? Take them off when we scored 28 vs niners? Put them back on after we scored first for a 7-0 lead against the Rams?Took them off against the Jaguars? Or was Waldron neutered during the scoring streaks? Pete doesnt call plays or meddle as much as poeple want to believe.
Wilson has always been a streaky player and probably always will be. With the finger we havent seen him under center much, if at all. Even handing off has to hurt. It doesnt surprise me we didnt run much at GB now I think about it. A broken finger isnt that big of a deal until its on your hand and your bumping it every time you turn around.
 

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