Outcoached?

[Ad Hawk]

In Aros' predictions thread, it was suggested at least once that Belichick would outcoach PC.

I'm wondering if, at the end of the day, one could make that argument here or not.

Both teams are different than last year, but the Patriots secondary who allowed very few passing TDs gave up five tonight.

Cam Newton, whom we've played many times and have often struggled against, nearly brought the Patriots back. Hawks rarely got pressure on him, so his throws were from a very clean pocket.

We put the ball in RW's hands on 3rd and 1 to let him cook. He missed that throw by 5-6 inches, but made many others on another nearly perfect night.

Some fantastic individual efforts on both sides tonight: Julian Edelman, Cam, RW, DK, Chris Carson, to name a few.

But what about coaching--play-calling, scheming, schemes/disguises on O and D, having players ready, etc. I'd love to read the thoughts of those who know more about the details than I do.

For the win? :0190l: :2thumbs:

 

[TypeSly]

Honestly, there's not too many teams out there that can say that they haven't been outcoached by Billy buddy. I actually love our head coach... I just think that someimes when he's challenged, he gets ahead of himself. Or he wants to beat other coaches in p*ssing matches.

 

[sc85sis]

Pete is now 3 for 4 against Belichick. How many coaches can say that?

 

[jamescasey1124]

Honestly, there's not too many teams out there that can say that they haven't been outcoached by Billy buddy. I actually love our head coach... I just think that someimes when he's challenged, he gets ahead of himself. Or he wants to beat other coaches in p*ssing matches.

Nice. I wonder the same thing. Hard to say outcoached when the outcome is a seahawks victory. However, coaching needs to be top to bottom in philosophy and it's clear this is Pete's team. As it should be. However again, just because you have the title of coach doesnt mean your above all. You have to coach your position and then outward from there. Pete's job is to hold his coaches accountable if something is off. Most of this is a refusal to adapt and change to the game. I think pete needs to coach the coaches than downward.

 

[Appyhawk]

I think it would be a rare day anyone could claim they "outcoached" Belichick.
But it's the players who play. The Pats did a great job of taking advantage of our numerous mistakes. That's another sign of great coaching.
On the other hand, Pete got our players coached up to the point we were able to withstand all those mistakes and still survive with a win, so there's some to be said for that.

 

[MontanaHawk05]

The "Let Russ Cook" guys were also, for the most part, the "Fire Schotty" guys. I wonder when they're going to admit that. Schotty has been brilliant. There's more concepts, more wrinkles, more everything. Hell, Russ's big run last week was out of triple option.

Russ himself is also cooking better in his own capacity. He's checking down more often. He's taking the shallow crossers instead of waiting for a 400-yard touchdown every play. His accuracy on screens and in-motion RB swing passes (not the Bevell WR swings) has improved. He's absolutely at the top of his game now, and some of that was on him - as he himself has always said.

And for all that, Russ threw 28 times today versus 25 runs. When you've got Carson and Hyde running with authority, a receiver duo that cannot be schemed around, and a versatile TE group that really hasn't even taken off yet...well.

This isn't about letting Russ cook. This has been about both Russ and Schotty getting better at their jobs, and about the sterling job Pete and John have done handing him weapons.

So yeah, Schotty absolutely held his own with Belichick today.

 

[Ad Hawk]

I think it would be a rare day anyone could claim they "outcoached" Belichick.
But it's the players who play. The Pats did a great job of taking advantage of our numerous mistakes. That's another sign of great coaching.
On the other hand, Pete got our players coached up to the point we were able to withstand all those mistakes and still survive with a win, so there's some to be said for that.

This is the challenge, isn't it? We won, so how much of that is in Pete's favor? More specifically: player selection in the draft (PC/JC credit-blame), Asst. coach selection/training, overall-philosophy, preparation for execution, play-calling, in-game adaptation, motivation, etc. There are so many variables to consider, and I'm not really adequate to explain it all.

PC's time management is questionable, but apparently, so is BB's when they're at the 9 yard line with time to throw three times to the EZ, and they don't.

 

[Ad Hawk]

The "Let Russ Cook" guys were also, for the most part, the "Fire Schotty" guys. I wonder when they're going to admit that. Schotty has been brilliant. There's more concepts, more wrinkles, more everything. Hell, Russ's big run last week was out of triple option.

Russ himself is also cooking better in his own capacity. He's checking down more often. He's taking the shallow crossers instead of waiting for a 400-yard touchdown every play. His accuracy on screens and in-motion RB swing passes (not the Bevell WR swings) has improved. He's absolutely at the top of his game now, and some of that was on him - as he himself has always said.

And for all that, Russ threw 28 times today versus 25 runs. When you've got Carson and Hyde running with authority, a receiver duo that cannot be schemed around, and a versatile TE group that really hasn't even taken off yet...well.

This isn't about letting Russ cook. This has been about both Russ and Schotty getting better at their jobs, and about the sterling job Pete and John have done handing him weapons.

So yeah, Schotty absolutely held his own with Belichick today.

Thanks for this helpful eval, Montana. With Russ taking the checkdowns, he'll hold the ball less, and yield less sacks. I hope this is the case, at least.

I loved the offense tonight overall, and if not for a number of penalties (fixable? history says we won't) and the one fluky pick-6, it could have been even better. If that's RW and Shotty, then tip of the hat to both of them, and to PC for sticking with Brian S.

 

[SmokinHawk]

Proudly driving the "Let Russ Cook" bus since his rookie season. Had we not, we'd have lost the game tonight, no doubt in my mind.

His one INT was a fluke. Olsen butterfingered a completely catchable ball for that pick six, and the NE defender was able to make the play.

What's Russ at now? Nine TDs in two games?

For god's sake he is the second coming of Football Jesus, let the man cook.

 

[LTH]

In Aros' predictions thread, it was suggested at least once that Belichick would outcoach PC.

I'm wondering if, at the end of the day, one could make that argument here or not.

Both teams are different than last year, but the Patriots secondary who allowed very few passing TDs gave up five tonight.

Cam Newton, whom we've played many times and have often struggled against, nearly brought the Patriots back. Hawks rarely got pressure on him, so his throws were from a very clean pocket.

We put the ball in RW's hands on 3rd and 1 to let him cook. He missed that throw by 5-6 inches, but made many others on another nearly perfect night.

Some fantastic individual efforts on both sides tonight: Julian Edelman, Cam, RW, DK, Chris Carson, to name a few.

But what about coaching--play-calling, scheming, schemes/disguises on O and D, having players ready, etc. I'd love to read the thoughts of those who know more about the details than I do.

For the win? :0190l: :2thumbs:

Carroll wasn't out coached they won the game if they lost the game then you might consider if he was out coached.

Seahawks are 2-0 ... that was a fantastic game!...cant wait for LA and the 9ers!

LTH

 

[Ad Hawk]

Proudly driving the "Let Russ Cook" bus since his rookie season. Had we not, we'd have lost the game tonight, no doubt in my mind.

His one INT was a fluke. Olsen butterfingered a completely catchable ball for that pick six, and the NE defender was able to make the play.

What's Russ at now? Nine TDs in two games?

For god's sake he is the second coming of Football Jesus, let the man cook.

Are you suggesting they didn't let Russ do his job tonight? Or was tonight evidence they are?

He only had 28 pass attempts for 288 yards vs. 30 rush attempts for 154 yards. That's fairly balanced. And while 5 TDs is fantastic, how the TD's come--rush or pass--is really irrelevant.

How much of tonight's offensive success is coaching and how much was just RW pulling rabbits out of his deep top-hat?

What about defense?

 

[JGreen79]

Two plays that resulted in TD's for both teams were amazing playcalls. And both to RBs.

The NE play, all game they were running Cam behind the FB and then he pulls up and tosses it for the TD.

Similar for Seattle. They run the backs into the flat more often than not on routes. Carson turns it up field and Russ hits him.

Overall it was a pretty great job by both coaches. I really want to know what Pete was saying to Bobby during the last time before the stop.

 

[jamescasey1124]

Are you suggesting they didn't let Russ do his job tonight? Or was tonight evidence they are?

He only had 28 pass attempts for 288 yards vs. 30 rush attempts for 154 yards. That's fairly balanced. And while 5 TDs is fantastic, how the TD's come--rush or pass--is really irrelevant.

How much of tonight's offensive success is coaching and how much was just RW pulling rabbits out of his deep top-hat?

What about defense?[/quote]

Only had 288 yards and five tds. What are we comparing here? He said let russ cook and he did. All shotty can do is put the game plan in his favor to produce. I saw moore deep for td, Metcalf deep for td, carson on wheel td. Those are planned plays because russ didnt scramble around hoping for open receivers. Offense is good. No questioning needed. Russ shows up everytime. Best player in the league hands down.

 

[Optimus25]

I think there's zero argument BB is Rushmore nfl coach.

Pete is not.

But Pete threw the kitchen sink a bit and bet big and came out.

But that third and one deep pass call was so asinine it's hard to wrap my head around.

I can't bring up 49 very often out of suppression, but damn Pete. Thought you learned when you just have to try the run no matter what or no matter who knows it's coming.

I mean that was classic, classic Pete & co. stuff.

 

[Threedee]

Pete is now 3 for 4 against Belichick. How many coaches can say that?

Even with some of the weird stuff Pete tried to pull, it's a lot easier to avoid being outcoached by Bill when you don't bring Cable Guy and Bevell along for the ride.

 

[jammerhawk]

The better coach on the night won the game!

Have to say I was surprised to see how well Newton played and how good NE was. The loss of Diggs to ejection certainly made the team have to work harder on D. Their run D is still somewhat in need of improvement, and the pass rush is still a work in progress.

Russ was once again amazing tonight. LJ Collier played well tonight, as did quite a few others.

 

[jamescasey1124]

I think there's zero argument BB is Rushmore nfl coach.

Pete is not.

But Pete threw the kitchen sink a bit and bet big and came out.

But that third and one deep pass call was so asinine it's hard to wrap my head around.

I can't bring up 49 very often out of suppression, but damn Pete. Thought you learned when you just have to try the run no matter what or no matter who knows it's coming.

I mean that was classic, classic Pete & co. stuff.

Rushmore of coaching? Really?
Why because he produced a system which his team could benefit and did. Six rings sure. Given at the time he seems to have the stat line. But he leaves something to be desired. Thinks he knows all and can do better than anyone else. His demeanor sometimes would suggest otherwise. Why else would he have players who committed to him for years suddenly up an leave? They just wanted to try a change? Come on man.

Given again...trying to produce a system around the players he has to be successful...which I admire the most, because it's my own coaching style. I'd rather down my own team before I suck off another teams coach. We won tonight. I myself am guilty of this, but we are to far into discussions leading nowhere because we just won.

 

[Reaneypark]

Pete guessed right on the final play and called the perfect D for it. (I’ll credit him more than Norton.) So when it mattered, he outcoached Bill.

 

[getnasty]

Spotted the Pats 7 on your first opening drive and still come away with the win. Outcoached? I think not.

 

[sutz]

Offense to offense, we outscored them 35-23. :229031_shrug: