NBA returning to Seattle?

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pinksheets

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You linked me to an StR piece that just quotes Bruski who just says "the Maloofs owe", which is technically true, they are the general partners of the organization that owes the debt to the city. Whether it be Ranadive or Hansen who bought the team, they would then be the ones who "owe" the debt. The ONLY difference is that a relocating ownership group would have to pay the entire loan + a penalty upfront, while a Sac ownership could simply incur the debt long term. This does not make for a difference in enterprise value like you seem to think. Both parties are buying an asset with debt.
 

jkitsune

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I can't keep up with the argument here or read all the pages, but lots of tweets and retweets that the situation is "about to get ugly." Good. This deserves to get ugly.
 

pinksheets

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And none of it matters because there is no reason to think that Hansen's offer was less the loan repayment. From all indications, his offer was as is to the Maloofs and he would assume the debt. This might explain somewhat why the original Sacramento bid was $100m short.
 

topdog

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If it doesn't work i will own up the question is will all of you.

The deal the magoofs made is if they relocated the team or sold it they would repay the loan in full.
 

Shaz

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topdog":28a5190e said:
If it doesn't work i will own up the question is will all of you.

The deal the magoofs made is if they relocated the team or sold it they would repay the loan in full.

No it's not. They inherited the debt just like any new owner will (Sac or Seattle) that's an organizational debt, not owner debt
 

pinksheets

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topdog":1xd6jvrb said:
If it doesn't work i will own up the question is will all of you.

The deal the magoofs made is if they relocated the team or sold it they would repay the loan in full.
And Hansen has the money to pay off that loan on top of his purchase price for the Kings. The point is, it's not some magical extra $70m the Sac group doesn't have to think about at all. It's the difference between assuming a debt long-term and paying it off up front, that's all.
 

vedthree

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SonicHawk":x0irvzp5 said:
drdiags":x0irvzp5 said:
The fact that the NBA got Sacramento to offer (tentatively) as much public funding for an arena adds to why they want to keep the team local. It helps other owners in the future when they need to extort money for their new arena deals. Would be a bad precedent.

Steve Rudman (cannot believe I am giving him kudos) laid out the reasoning nicely in his article.

http://sportspressnw.com/2150643/2013/march-9-the-key-date-in-the-sonics-soap

I just don't agree it has that much effect. If the owner isn't willing to put in what Hansen does, they can easily threaten to move the team. Cities can't assume that if they wait long enough the NBA will somehow make a sweet deal for them because they won't.

Would you rather have someone loan you $10, or would you rather have someone give you $5? That's the heart of the issue here, and the NBA has made it clear which they'd rather have. They know once they've tapped the public $$ vein, they can keep feeding as long as they want - and it's free $$$. And most importantly it shifts the liability for shortfalls on to the taxpayers, not the Owner or the League.

All Stern's talk about "valuing the community" of Sacramento? It's a BS smokescreen. He gets to paint himself as a good guy to Sacto while he's robbing them blind. Same story in New Orleans - why did Stern fight so hard to keep the Hornets there? It's because both the City & State have a major stake in paying for & operating that arena. You can bet your ass that if neither one of those places were offering free public money, Stern would treat the situation exactly like he did here in Seattle and he would've fast-tracked the exit of both.

Easiest way to understand it is to look back at the original Key Arena situation. The remodel was financed with bonds, backed by future revenues generated by the arena (mainly the sale of luxury suites). Every year the Sonics were responsible for making a payment, the $$$ for which came out of the team's operating budget. After the '98 Lockout, the business model changed and the Sonics struggled to meet the payments (or so says Schultz) The real issue was that the Sonics were in a situation where they had to pay back the bonds using the same revenue streams that also determined how much $$ they paid to the League under the existing revenue sharing plan - it meant less money that Seattle could contribute to the to the League's other owners. What Schultz/Stern wanted was access to additional revenue streams (Since Seattle Center is owned/operated by the City, the Sonics didn't have complete access to parking, all concessions, income from other events, stuff like that). They wanted to use that revenue (which was separate from income calculated in the revenue sharing plan) to cover the arena payments. In other words, use a free public subsidy so that the League could keep the max amount of team generated $$$ for themselves. We all know what happened - Seattle wouldn't play ball so Stern went on the warpath and made us an example for every other city - give us public funding, or suffer the wrath.

Now with Hansen's new arena plan, the details are completely different (he owns the building, land, can lease to an NHL team and will have access to all types of revenue generating opportunities that Key Arena never provided) but the overall concept is still the same: the construction bonds are backed by arena generated revenue. Which means that if some disaster happens, Hansen possibly has to dip into the team operating budget (reducing the amount of $$$ that goes back to the NBA) to make his bond payments before he pays the owners.

One thing with Stern & the Owners: they are never in danger of "losing" money, they're only faced with not being paid as much as they possibly could. So for them, the whole thing comes down to "which plan gives us access to the most money?"

Now, here's the big advantage (for the NBA) with Sacramento's plan: The investors put up a set amount of money, $250M. After that, their liability is capped. Sacramento is responsible for coming up with the rest, through a variety of methods, but mostly through parking. So what happens when Sacto's plan doesn't raise the projected amount? Well, as far as the NBA's concerned - that's Sacramento's problem, not theirs. It's not coming out of the Kings' operating budget. So Sacramento will be running around trying to generate more money - raising the price of parking, passing additional taxes, dipping into the City's general fund. And while all this is going on, the League will still be able to extract the max amount in revenue sharing from the Kings. They'll be getting free money from the taxpayers of Sacto to cover the rest.

Cut through all the politiking and PR bullshit and this is why all of Stern's actions make sense, and why Seattle gets screwed twice. Seattle is losing it's bid for the Kings for the exact same reason we lost the Sonics - we are not granting the NBA access to the public subsidy trough. This is why OKC, New Orleans and Sacramento are (and Milwaukee could be) better long term choices in their eyes - because those cities are willing to pony up.

The fact that we're a "big market" matters, but not nearly as much as we like to think. When it comes to TV, the NBA cares more about its National TV deal, which is always driven by the powerhouse franchises (Lakers, Bulls, East Coast). And as the past couple of seasons have shown, if the small market teams are competitive and have some stars, they'll bring in decent National ratings as well.

The additional revenue the Seattle market would draw or the cache of having Ballmer/Hansen as owners pales into comparison and affects their bottom line much less than the millions of free $$$ cities can/will give them in subsidy.
 

dunceface

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Ved, you have just reached hero status with Pinksheets. Thank you for clarifying this stuff for all of us...even if its not exactly what we want to hear right now
IN HANSEN WE TRUST
 

KK84

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Whatever the reasons are (Stern hates Seattle, owners want publicly funded arenas, etc.), I don't understand how the BOG can take the risk of pissing off Ballmer. The man's net worth is literally just about enough to buy all 30 teams at their current estimated value. And that's after HBNs valuation of the Kings raised those values. Plus, isn't Microsoft one of the NBAs main sponsoring partners? Add to that he literally has an army of anti-trust lawyers at his disposal.

The NBA has always used strongarm and bullying tactics to get their way, and trying to sue them is usually pointless, but Ballmer is not usual. I have to think the NBA settles with an expansion agreement whether they want to or not, because if they don't, Ballmer could destroy the league.
 

strohmin

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We got screwed because Bennett and Stern are great buddies. Sacramento didn't have to compete against a friendship, so I am not surprised it fell through. I love basketball and the Sonics, I hate the NBA. Oh well, the NBA has become a big time joke.
 

pinksheets

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KK84":3uoa14zh said:
The man's net worth is literally just about enough to buy all 30 teams at their current estimated value. And that's after HBNs valuation of the Kings raised those values.
I'm assuming you saw this, but for those who haven't:

BJNzoPPCIAEDbcU
 

Laloosh

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vedthree":1fk03hjp said:
Would you rather have someone loan you $10, or would you rather have someone give you $5? That's the heart of the issue here, and the NBA has made it clear which they'd rather have. They know once they've tapped the public $$ vein, they can keep feeding as long as they want - and it's free $$$. And most importantly it shifts the liability for shortfalls on to the taxpayers, not the Owner or the League.

All Stern's talk about "valuing the community" of Sacramento? It's a BS smokescreen. He gets to paint himself as a good guy to Sacto while he's robbing them blind. Same story in New Orleans - why did Stern fight so hard to keep the Hornets there? It's because both the City & State have a major stake in paying for & operating that arena. You can bet your ass that if neither one of those places were offering free public money, Stern would treat the situation exactly like he did here in Seattle and he would've fast-tracked the exit of both.

Easiest way to understand it is to look back at the original Key Arena situation. The remodel was financed with bonds, backed by future revenues generated by the arena (mainly the sale of luxury suites). Every year the Sonics were responsible for making a payment, the $$$ for which came out of the team's operating budget. After the '98 Lockout, the business model changed and the Sonics struggled to meet the payments (or so says Schultz) The real issue was that the Sonics were in a situation where they had to pay back the bonds using the same revenue streams that also determined how much $$ they paid to the League under the existing revenue sharing plan - it meant less money that Seattle could contribute to the to the League's other owners. What Schultz/Stern wanted was access to additional revenue streams (Since Seattle Center is owned/operated by the City, the Sonics didn't have complete access to parking, all concessions, income from other events, stuff like that). They wanted to use that revenue (which was separate from income calculated in the revenue sharing plan) to cover the arena payments. In other words, use a free public subsidy so that the League could keep the max amount of team generated $$$ for themselves. We all know what happened - Seattle wouldn't play ball so Stern went on the warpath and made us an example for every other city - give us public funding, or suffer the wrath.

Now with Hansen's new arena plan, the details are completely different (he owns the building, land, can lease to an NHL team and will have access to all types of revenue generating opportunities that Key Arena never provided) but the overall concept is still the same: the construction bonds are backed by arena generated revenue. Which means that if some disaster happens, Hansen possibly has to dip into the team operating budget (reducing the amount of $$$ that goes back to the NBA) to make his bond payments before he pays the owners.

One thing with Stern & the Owners: they are never in danger of "losing" money, they're only faced with not being paid as much as they possibly could. So for them, the whole thing comes down to "which plan gives us access to the most money?"

Now, here's the big advantage (for the NBA) with Sacramento's plan: The investors put up a set amount of money, $250M. After that, their liability is capped. Sacramento is responsible for coming up with the rest, through a variety of methods, but mostly through parking. So what happens when Sacto's plan doesn't raise the projected amount? Well, as far as the NBA's concerned - that's Sacramento's problem, not theirs. It's not coming out of the Kings' operating budget. So Sacramento will be running around trying to generate more money - raising the price of parking, passing additional taxes, dipping into the City's general fund. And while all this is going on, the League will still be able to extract the max amount in revenue sharing from the Kings. They'll be getting free money from the taxpayers of Sacto to cover the rest.

Cut through all the politiking and PR bullshit and this is why all of Stern's actions make sense, and why Seattle gets screwed twice. Seattle is losing it's bid for the Kings for the exact same reason we lost the Sonics - we are not granting the NBA access to the public subsidy trough. This is why OKC, New Orleans and Sacramento are (and Milwaukee could be) better long term choices in their eyes - because those cities are willing to pony up.

The fact that we're a "big market" matters, but not nearly as much as we like to think. When it comes to TV, the NBA cares more about its National TV deal, which is always driven by the powerhouse franchises (Lakers, Bulls, East Coast). And as the past couple of seasons have shown, if the small market teams are competitive and have some stars, they'll bring in decent National ratings as well.

The additional revenue the Seattle market would draw or the cache of having Ballmer/Hansen as owners pales into comparison and affects their bottom line much less than the millions of free $$$ cities can/will give them in subsidy.

So what you're saying is that our entire thread could be summed up with: :cussing: followed by :white_flag:
 

vedthree

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dontbelikethat":m7a588xb said:
Well why would they come now, when they could've came like 5 years ago? What has changed since then? I wasn't trying to refer back to like the 80's, but like what has changed in the past few years to make them come now instead of then.

Huh? The NBA is exploding with foreign players right now, and the talent pool is constantly increasing. The biggest change recently has been the draft rules - now it's more common for teams to draft directly from the international ranks. In the 2011 Draft, 5 of the top 7 picks were foreign guys.

Also got to keep in mind that a lot of players commonly thought of as "American" (guys like Luol Deng, Joakim Noah, Al Horford, etc..) are international - born and learned to play in foreign countries, came/were recruited to the US to attend Basketball power High Schools and/or played NCAA ball before entering the NBA Draft.

On opening day of the 1991–92 season, NBA rosters included 23 international players from 18 countries. At the start of the 2012–13 season, there were 84 players from 37 countries and territories. The number of players on opening-night rosters tied an all-time league record first set in 2010–11, and the number of countries represented was one short of the record set in that same season. In addition, the San Antonio Spurs set an all-time record for international players on an opening-night squad, with eight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foreign_NBA_players
 

vedthree

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dunceface":3vayb8w1 said:
Ved, you have just reached hero status with Pinksheets. Thank you for clarifying this stuff for all of us...even if its not exactly what we want to hear right now
IN HANSEN WE TRUST

E.C. Laloosh":3vayb8w1 said:
So what you're saying is that our entire thread could be summed up with: :cussing: followed by :white_flag:

Heh, sorry 'bout that - I get off on rants sometimes and get waaaay to wordy .... :lol:

Actually, I don't think Hansen needs to surrender at all - in fact, I think the NBA ****** up, tipped their hand AND pissed off the wrong guys. I think Hansen still has major leverage here

Stern gets away with his Machiavellian BS because other ownership groups are so desperate to join/stay in the club ... but Hansen/Ballmer are different. Ballmer doesn't need to join the NBA Boy's Club for validation - hell, for him it's slumming. As was said, he could buy & sell any of them with his pocket change. And for Hansen, this has always been personal. He wants to be the white knight. He wants the Sonics back. He's on a revenge mission. Combine Hansen's passion with Ballmer's temper and .... there will be blood.

H/B know the situation here in Seattle - they know the political winds and that there's only a limited opportunity for this arena. They also know the fanbase won't survive getting jerked around by the NBA a 2nd or 3rd time. Now they know the NBA's game. That's where Stern showed too many cards. If a lot of National pundits can see this is nothing but a public subsidy grab by the NBA and about sending a message to their other struggling markets then you know damn well Hansen & Ballmer see it.

IMO, there's a clear strategy to beat the NBA at their own game - do everything possible to enforce the sale agreement with the Maloofs. Argue it at the BoG, force the Finance Committee to either approve it or come up with some out-of-their-ass reason to reject it. If it is rejected, bankroll the Maloofs so they refuse to sell to Sacto. Bring in the lawyers and sue everything/everyone in sight. Threaten to drag things out as long as possible. If Hansen does any of that, the Sacto deal that the NBA cares so much about will collapse. Hansen only agrees to walk away from the Kings if the NBA grants an expansion team

I'm convinced it will work - Hansen & Ballmer have the motivation, deep pockets, and phalanx of Lawyers to fight the bully at their own game and punch them in the mouth. The NBA has more to lose in the fight than we do.

I'm going to love watching them do it.

:th2thumbs: :snack:
 

pinksheets

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Unlike Sacramento, when our team was leaving, we didn't have a mayor who showed some balls.....to underage girls.
 
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