My observations from last nights thriller - and a question

[TwistedHusky]

In the playoffs, the teams we are likely to meet include:

Packers
Bucs
Bucs

Can we beat these teams? Sure.

Are we likely to beat them? No.

We are weak against good QBs when we cannot get pressure. If the QB can make accurate throws, as we will give them time to throw and allow large cushions - we cannot stop them.


Packers:
I honestly don't think we could beat the Packers. If we took the lead, they would just come back and take it back. We would likely get a turnover or two, but then we would putz around on offense on later drives allowing them back into it.

Bucs:
Brady would walk up and down the field on us. Vita Vea is out for the year, so maybe WIlson would have time to scramble but that is a good defense and an offense we would struggle to stop.

Rams:
These guys are build to beat us. Goff makes mistakes when pressured but we won't pressure him. Giving him all day to throw and easy catches are going to torch us. Meanwhile, those long developing plays will get ripped apart by Donald tossing OL aside like dead leaves.

I need to see us against the Rams and Bills to see if we have any shot against those 3 above. So far with this defense it does not look like it.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Fair enough. The Ram fear on this site every year is funny to me. Not just because I hate them, but the Hawks are a damn good team. I doubt they would be excited about playing the Hawks. Screw the fear of other teams, bring it on.

 

[TraderGary]

I echo your concerns as well.. (I just suck as wording.. and as of lately circumstances outside of here my mind has been all over studying for a state board written exam, so most of comes off as ignorant, non intentional lol)

I love that we’re 5-0 , but our defense does have me concerned. The Talent is there, we have literally seen flashes of it. And we have some really good guys who are injured, due back after the bye. So I hope we see a vastly improved Defense. I’m going to stay going against the the grain in, we have a pass rush that’s getting pressure, however when our Corners or the back end of the field are dropping so far back and not jamming/bumping at the snap and throwing routes off and timing, it kind of cancels out any work the rushers do due to that 1 extra second maybe. Someone had a a great post which I agree with. Think that was Fades.

I really hope when the bye is over Ken Norton Jr knows and uses the talent he has (he didn’t in Oakland) and trusts them to play and be aggressive. Like you it boggles my mind that our Corners are lining up 10yards off the receivers then dropping back additional yards giving up easy conversions constantly. Flowers.. I can kind of see why.. the dude seems to touch a receiver and there’s a flag. Shaq.. well, when he plays aggressive is when he is his best IMO. When he bumps and sticks to the receiver I see positive results for us. I feel it’s our coaches or KNJ not trusting them or the ability, I don’t know that’s speculation on my part. But I can’t understand how a kid who Sherman was helping, teaching and mentoring was doing stellar opposite of him, Starts playing just okay. Then in some games when he’s on the receiver and aggressive completely different.

This defense is very hot and cold. I’d like it to stay in the warmer side of hot, and hopefully everyone injured who is coming back will shift it that way. Neal has been beyond a pleasant surprise and someone I would love for Seattle to keep around. KJ.. a position change made a big difference. I love he’s playing a position they said he originally was brought in to play asked to be switched and then a few years later asks to be swapped back. Overall, I’m hoping after the bye we see a better and improved defense.

Best of luck with your board exam JP.

Yes I do believe the talent is there, but the coaches are not maximizing that talent to the best of their abilities. I think Griffin for one is better in man than he is playing zone. I have not seen enough of Dunbar to make that determination. Tre Flowers, well he's Tre Flowers. But in his defense, he's a safety who's playing out of position.

As for Ken Norton, I have no confidence in him whatsoever that he can get the defense straightened out. We have a defense that statistically has gotten worse every year he has been the DC. And as you said, he wasn't any better in Oakland. Carroll's loyalty to bad coaches is going to bite us in the ass once again.

I think you touched on an interesting point about the coaching staff not trusting their personnel. I would have to think something like that would play into the minds of the players. If you had a coach that you felt didn't have faith in your abilities as a player to man up and make the plays when needed, would it motivate you to want to give 110% to them on the field of play? I think it's an interesting question.

 

[TraderGary]

In the playoffs, the teams we are likely to meet include:

Packers
Bucs
Bucs

Can we beat these teams? Sure.

Are we likely to beat them? No.

We are weak against good QBs when we cannot get pressure. If the QB can make accurate throws, as we will give them time to throw and allow large cushions - we cannot stop them.


Packers:
I honestly don't think we could beat the Packers. If we took the lead, they would just come back and take it back. We would likely get a turnover or two, but then we would putz around on offense on later drives allowing them back into it.

Bucs:
Brady would walk up and down the field on us. Vita Vea is out for the year, so maybe WIlson would have time to scramble but that is a good defense and an offense we would struggle to stop.

Rams:
These guys are build to beat us. Goff makes mistakes when pressured but we won't pressure him. Giving him all day to throw and easy catches are going to torch us. Meanwhile, those long developing plays will get ripped apart by Donald tossing OL aside like dead leaves.

I need to see us against the Rams and Bills to see if we have any shot against those 3 above. So far with this defense it does not look like it.

The only way we beat those teams is if Russ keeps playing at an MVP level and throws for 300-400 yards and 4-5 touchdowns. We would have to win a shootout and hope we have the final possession of the game, or score with less than 30 seconds on the clock. Actually 30 seconds is probably too much time if all they needed was a FG.

 

[LTH]

First just let me say that I'm as big a Hawks fan as anyone, and have been from day one of the franchise. And I’m absolutely thrilled that we won last night, and ecstatic to be 5-0 going into the bye. And with the extra week, hopefully we get some people healthy like Jamal Adams and Dunbar, and work snacks Harrison into the rotation.

That being said, I've got some questions and some things I need to get off my chest, and if you want to call me a Debbie-Downer after a big win, that’s fine, I’ve got no problem with it. But there are things I fail to understand about Pete Carroll’s schemes, and maybe some of you can offer a different perspective.

For starters, I thought Zimmer had the perfect game plan against the Hawks on both sides of the ball. I think we were terribly outcoached and I was troubled we didn't make any adjustments whatsoever on either side of the ball in the first half.

Let’s start with the offense. The Hawks love the deep ball and everyone knows it. So the Vikings come out and play cover-2 to guard against the long passes that Russ is so good at. So instead of running crossing routes in front of their safeties, or seam routes or comeback routes, all designed to take advantage of the defense they were employing, we play right into their hands by consistently running 3 receivers deep, which their defense was specifically designed to stop! We did this the entire first half and we all saw the result. Schotty has been calling great games this season, but last nights play-calling was complete BS based on the defense the Vikings were employing.

Now for the defense. First, let me just say that giving up two separate 97-yard drives to anyone is an embarrassment. But giving up two separate 97-yard drives to a very mediocre QB like Cousins is inexcusable.

It's the same old thing with Pete Carroll and his ridiculous and ultra-conservative “bend-but-don’t-break” defensive schemes. Give up the easy underneath stuff but keep everything in front and don't get beat deep. As a result, we make it far too easy for teams to convert 3rd downs and march right down the field. I have zero confidence in this defense getting off the field on 3rd downs against anyone.

We can't get off the field on 3rd down because we consistently give up the easy underneath stuff in the name of guarding against the big play over the top. Without exaggeration, it's just a simple pitch-and-catch for the QB/receiver. It's a terribly flawed scheme. For a defensive minded coach like PC, it boggles the mind.

I hope someone can talk me off the ledge because I fail to see how allowing teams easy first downs and marching right down the field with little resistance is better than playing more aggressively and risking a possible big play over the top. Please, someone help me understand this because this drives me absolutely insane each and every week. I think I need therapy. :lol: What am I missing? Does anyone have a different perspective on this?

We're 5-0 for the first time, and I absolutely love it! But that 5-0 is despite the defense, not because of it. Against teams in our division, it's going to bite us squarely in the ass if they don't adjust their schemes. Playing 5 to 10 yards off receivers with our corners bailing out pre-snap on 3rd and 7 is not going to get it done against anyone. Had we not opened up the offense, we would be getting crushed! Russ is carrying this team and I personally think PC is overrated and often gets outcoached like he did last night.

Thank you for reading.

As far as the offense is concerned Russ was trying to force the deep ball IMO... I think Russ is just confident.. I think when he spreads the ball around especially when a team is playing 2 deep the offense is more productive.. Not sure if that was on schotty...

as far as the defense is concerned, there is a reason why the Hawks are playing the scheme they are... Im not exactly sure what it is but maybe they just dont have the confidence in the secondary to man up... There is a reason and Carroll isnt talking about it... we are not in the meeting room so it's really hard to tell what they are thinking... but whatever the reason is I can see that it is frustrating for fans...and probably frustrating for Carroll... I just think they are going to do some re evaluations on this off week and my hope is they will be better because of new players coming in and players coming back from injury... I think we will know exactly how good this D will be this season by the time we finish playing the Rams the first time... as of now it is what it is good enough 5-0...

LTH

 

[John63]

First just let me say that I'm as big a Hawks fan as anyone, and have been from day one of the franchise. And I’m absolutely thrilled that we won last night, and ecstatic to be 5-0 going into the bye. And with the extra week, hopefully we get some people healthy like Jamal Adams and Dunbar, and work snacks Harrison into the rotation.

That being said, I've got some questions and some things I need to get off my chest, and if you want to call me a Debbie-Downer after a big win, that’s fine, I’ve got no problem with it. But there are things I fail to understand about Pete Carroll’s schemes, and maybe some of you can offer a different perspective.

For starters, I thought Zimmer had the perfect game plan against the Hawks on both sides of the ball. I think we were terribly outcoached and I was troubled we didn't make any adjustments whatsoever on either side of the ball in the first half.

Let’s start with the offense. The Hawks love the deep ball and everyone knows it. So the Vikings come out and play cover-2 to guard against the long passes that Russ is so good at. So instead of running crossing routes in front of their safeties, or seam routes or comeback routes, all designed to take advantage of the defense they were employing, we play right into their hands by consistently running 3 receivers deep, which their defense was specifically designed to stop! We did this the entire first half and we all saw the result. Schotty has been calling great games this season, but last nights play-calling was complete BS based on the defense the Vikings were employing.

Now for the defense. First, let me just say that giving up two separate 97-yard drives to anyone is an embarrassment. But giving up two separate 97-yard drives to a very mediocre QB like Cousins is inexcusable.

It's the same old thing with Pete Carroll and his ridiculous and ultra-conservative “bend-but-don’t-break” defensive schemes. Give up the easy underneath stuff but keep everything in front and don't get beat deep. As a result, we make it far too easy for teams to convert 3rd downs and march right down the field. I have zero confidence in this defense getting off the field on 3rd downs against anyone.

We can't get off the field on 3rd down because we consistently give up the easy underneath stuff in the name of guarding against the big play over the top. Without exaggeration, it's just a simple pitch-and-catch for the QB/receiver. It's a terribly flawed scheme. For a defensive minded coach like PC, it boggles the mind.

I hope someone can talk me off the ledge because I fail to see how allowing teams easy first downs and marching right down the field with little resistance is better than playing more aggressively and risking a possible big play over the top. Please, someone help me understand this because this drives me absolutely insane each and every week. I think I need therapy. :lol: What am I missing? Does anyone have a different perspective on this?

We're 5-0 for the first time, and I absolutely love it! But that 5-0 is despite the defense, not because of it. Against teams in our division, it's going to bite us squarely in the ass if they don't adjust their schemes. Playing 5 to 10 yards off receivers with our corners bailing out pre-snap on 3rd and 7 is not going to get it done against anyone. Had we not opened up the offense, we would be getting crushed! Russ is carrying this team and I personally think PC is overrated and often gets outcoached like he did last night.

Thank you for reading.

As far as the offense is concerned Russ was trying to force the deep ball IMO... I think Russ is just confident.. I think when he spreads the ball around especially when a team is playing 2 deep the offense is more productive.. Not sure if that was on schotty...

as far as the defense is concerned, there is a reason why the Hawks are playing the scheme they are... Im not exactly sure what it is but maybe they just dont have the confidence in the secondary to man up... There is a reason and Carroll isnt talking about it... we are not in the meeting room so it's really hard to tell what they are thinking... but whatever the reason is I can see that it is frustrating for fans...and probably frustrating for Carroll... I just think they are going to do some re evaluations on this off week and my hope is they will be better because of new players coming in and players coming back from injury... I think we will know exactly how good this D will be this season by the time we finish playing the Rams the first time... as of now it is what it is good enough 5-0...

LTH

OKay I agree wiht the concerns on defense, and the very very slow adjustments made. As to the deep ball, and the announcers as well as OP all saw 3 wr going deep or no one open. Wilson does not call the plays unless the head sets go out or we are in hurry up. So that falls on game plan and OC who calls the plays
. To me PC was trying the same old, same old and then at half realized it was not working so went back to what had been working for 4 games. Hopefully that will be the last time we try that.

 

[Maelstrom787]

I'm not currently available to sit down, read the thread, and write a reply worth anything right now - so I'll just note that the OP is a really high quality post, which we need more of.

Great stuff.

 

[TraderGary]

I'm not currently available to sit down, read the thread, and write a reply worth anything right now - so I'll just note that the OP is a really high quality post, which we need more of.

Great stuff.

I appreciate the kind words Maelstrom. Thank you very much.

 

[TraderGary]

This speaks to exactly why I created this thread.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2020/10/...ting-great-field-position-special-teams-stats

If they haven't figured this out during the bye week, we're not going to go far in the playoffs if we even make it there. Our only hope would be that Russ keeps playing at an MVP level and puts up record numbers week in and week out.

I keep telling everyone it's not the personnel, it's the terrible schemes and their "keep everything in front" soft zone defense. It's no mystery why we can't get off the field on 3rd downs. Should be obvious to anyone watching including Pete Carroll and Ken Norton.

 

[kf3339]

This speaks to exactly why I created this thread.

https://www.fieldgulls.com/2020/10/...ting-great-field-position-special-teams-stats

If they haven't figured this out during the bye week, we're not going to go far in the playoffs if we even make it there. Our only hope would be that Russ keeps playing at an MVP level and puts up record numbers week in and week out.

I keep telling everyone it's not the personnel, it's the terrible schemes and their "keep everything in front" soft zone defense. It's no mystery why we can't get off the field on 3rd downs. Should be obvious to anyone watching including Pete Carroll and Ken Norton.

The question of scheme and in-game adjustments is a very valid concern . It has been discussed every year on this board since PC,s first season. I am hopeful that Schotty and RW can keep our offense going this year. They will need to with a very bad defensive scheme. Norton is outmatched as a DC. He has no business being in that position. Even the Raiders figured that out firing him during the season. PC isn't going to change, which tells me our offense will need to ball out every game. That isn't realistic.

Good comments TraderGary. At least you see the issues.

 

[TypeSly]

No Debbie-Downer accusations here... I'm sure lots of people think I am one. I love our 5-0 record, I'd even be jumpimg for joy if we were 4-1 going into the bye week...

For some reason, I just don't have confidence this is sustainable with the D going at this rate. Like c'mon... as amazing as Russ is, how long can we honestly convince ourselves that this can happen every game? And into the playoffs as well? Even all you rose-colored mofos feel it in your heart... without changes, this is not going to last. Have you guys seen our BRUTAL schedule coming up?

 

[TraderGary]

No Debbie-Downer accusations here... I'm sure lots of people think I am one. I love our 5-0 record, I'd even be jumpimg for joy if we were 4-1 going into the bye week...

For some reason, I just don't have confidence this is sustainable with the D going at this rate. Like c'mon... as amazing as Russ is, how long can we honestly convince ourselves that this can happen every game? And into the playoffs as well? Even all you rose-colored mofos feel it in your heart... without changes, this is not going to last. Have you guys seen our BRUTAL schedule coming up?

Yes, these next 5 games are going to be crucial, and should give us a good idea whether this team is capable of going to the promise land this year.

With Adams and Dunbar hopefully healthy and Snacks Harrison being integrated into the defense, I have to believe we're going to see some adjustments when they hit the field again. It's hard to imagine PC doesn't see the obvious flaws in the defensive schemes we've been running and how ineffective it's been. He's had plenty of time to assess things during this break.

I was hopeful we would have heard something about Dan Quinn by now. This would have been the perfect opportunity to bring him in given the bye week. Unfortunately it looks like it's not to be. Of course we don't know if Quinn was even open to the possibility. It's possible he just wants a break to figure things out for himself and who could blame him.

 

[hawks85]

We have an opportunistic Defense that will get better. We have plenty of talent and some super stars that will settle in. They won us the NE game, the 4th down vs the vikings was giant too.

The vikings basically had the ball for 75% and our D only gave up 26 points to one of the best running teams in the NFL

And that actually speaks to my point. The Vikings had the ball 75% of the time! And why is that? It's because of our ultra-soft zone coverage schemes allowing easy pitch-and-catch 3rd down conversions for the opposing QB because we'd rather give up easy 3rd down conversions and allow the opposing team to move up and down the field than give up something over the top. Logically it makes absolutely zero sense!

My hope is that Adams will get healthy during the bye and they will make some adjustments to the scheme. If not, we're going to get torched by the good teams like the Rams, and will be one-and-done in the playoffs once again.

I sound like a broken record, but this is EXACTLY what I have been saying. It's not the players it's Norton. That dude has to go and fast. Norton is a very very bad D-coord, and as soon as people accept that and stop saying the D will get better etc....The D will not get better as long as Norton is the D-coord. Sure, we will have a couple of decent defensive games, but it's not enough. Norton has had 2 years to get better and he has not. He is killing this Defense. Before his arrival, we were a very good Defense, and since he has been D coord we are the laughing stock of the NFL with the worst Defense. This may ruffle some feathers, but I don't care. We are an overrated 5-0 team. We have had a weak schedule, and yet to beat a team with a winning record.

 

[Ad Hawk]

I sound like a broken record, but this is EXACTLY what I have been saying. It's not the players it's Norton. That dude has to go and fast. Norton is a very very bad D-coord, and as soon as people accept that and stop saying the D will get better etc....The D will not get better as long as Norton is the D-coord. Sure, we will have a couple of decent defensive games, but it's not enough. Norton has had 2 years to get better and he has not. He is killing this Defense. Before his arrival, we were a very good Defense, and since he has been D coord we are the laughing stock of the NFL with the worst Defense. This may ruffle some feathers, but I don't care. We are an overrated 5-0 team. We have had a weak schedule, and yet to beat a team with a winning record.

Your opinion on Norton has zero impact on whether he stays or goes, just so you know. No amount of fan yelling will remove him, either.

 

[SoulfishHawk]

WE??? hmmmmm

 

[hawks85]

I sound like a broken record, but this is EXACTLY what I have been saying. It's not the players it's Norton. That dude has to go and fast. Norton is a very very bad D-coord, and as soon as people accept that and stop saying the D will get better etc....The D will not get better as long as Norton is the D-coord. Sure, we will have a couple of decent defensive games, but it's not enough. Norton has had 2 years to get better and he has not. He is killing this Defense. Before his arrival, we were a very good Defense, and since he has been D coord we are the laughing stock of the NFL with the worst Defense. This may ruffle some feathers, but I don't care. We are an overrated 5-0 team. We have had a weak schedule, and yet to beat a team with a winning record.

Your opinion on Norton has zero impact on whether he stays or goes, just so you know. No amount of fan yelling will remove him, either.

I understand this, but I'm freaking frustrated with this D. We will not advance in the playoffs or let alone win the SB with this D, and no one will convince me otherwise.

 

[kf3339]

Look, we all know what this defense is and isn't 5 games into the season. There is a lot of issues that need to be fixed. Personally, I am just happy that we are 5-0 with these issues, as opposed to being 3-2, or even 2-3 with the same exact problem. That could easily have been the case if RW wasn't allowed to ball out starting in the first quarter.

I do hope some of these defensive issues gets fixed starting this Sunday. They have some D players coming back from injury and some (Dunbar) that probably needed the extra week to feel better and be more in tune with our defensive schemes. That is whatever they are right now.

I will start to be concerned in about 6 more games if the defense is still the weak point. At 5-0 we have a very strong case for a playoff spot and maybe more. I hope we just get farther than the last few years. That would be improvement which is a good thing.

 

[TypeSly]

WE??? hmmmmm

Yes, "WE". We can debate or argue all we want, but are we not all pulling for one team? Would it make you feel that much better if we addressed every opinion as "they" or "The Seahawks"? Next, you'll be making a call to the grammar police? :roll:

 

[SoulfishHawk]

Relax man...….
And I wasn't even referring to you. People who blast the team over and over again just sound funny when they say "we".
Don't like it, too bad.

 

[Pandion Haliaetus]

Soul, our fan base is just way too smart and/or are perfectionists.