Much rather have Tate then Harvin

Status
Not open for further replies.

onanygivensunday

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
5,831
Reaction score
1,814
TJH":1igdqyni said:
The one thing I absolutely would have prefered, however, is that we traded for Gordon instead of Harvin. He was being shopped around that same time.
Gordon wouldn't have had the positive affect that Harvin will have to our run game.

Watch next year what Pete and Bevell will do in the running game with Harvin and fly sweep sets/plays.

We saw just the tip of the iceberg in the Superbowl.

It's going to be fun.
 

CANHawk

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
12,041
Reaction score
0
Location
PoCompton, BC Canada
basing the idea of keeping Tate over Harvin in the name of durability is kinda silly. Statistically a Toyota Camry is more reliable than a Corvette, but which one do you want on race day..?
 

onanygivensunday

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 14, 2010
Messages
5,831
Reaction score
1,814
CANHawk":ukz1tdkb said:
basing the idea of keeping Tate over Harvin in the name of durability is kinda silly. Statistically a Toyota Camry is more reliable than a Corvette, but which one do you want on race day..?
Personally, I want the one that "runs like a cheetah with its tail on fire". (author unknown)
 

Natethegreat

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
2,566
Reaction score
392
hawknation2014":1yfvwki0 said:
Natethegreat":1yfvwki0 said:
OffseasonChampions":1yfvwki0 said:
Natethegreat":1yfvwki0 said:
And again we lost a first, a third, and a seventh, for Harvin not just a third and seventh.
1st Round Pick- Xavier Rhodes CB
7th Round Pick- Travis Bond G (Cut in the 2013 preseason by Minnesota)
2014 3rd Round Pick- TBD

When these guys have as much of an impact as Percy Harvin did in the Super Bowl.... let me know.
Pease you want to do the who we could have had wars? Anyone can play that game. Point is we lost out on those draft picks plus Tate is gone plus we could use that 4 to 5 mill a year to lock up Thomas and Sherman(even after retaining Tate). I get that when healthy Harvin is a tantalizing weapon in our offense but his cost is more than his worth by a long shot to me.

Nate, it's way too early to say that. If Harvin becomes the team's go-to weapon this year and has another All-Pro season, you are going to be whistling a different tune.

It was a bold decision, a costly decision, a risky decision, but it has the potential to pay off in a big way over the next few years. This offense needs more big plays. Let's wait and see how Harvin performs during a healthy 2014 campaign before we judge this decision in any conclusive way.
I hope he comes out and lights the world on fire. I really do. If he does thats great.
 

MizzouHawkGal

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 16, 2012
Messages
13,477
Reaction score
846
Location
Kansas City, MO
CANHawk":3asvtt4j said:
basing the idea of keeping Tate over Harvin in the name of durability is kinda silly. Statistically a Toyota Camry is more reliable than a Corvette, but which one do you want on race day..?
I like that analogy even though without the hip surgery Harvin only played something like 4 games less then Tate so I've never understood why some think he's injury prone.
 

sc85sis

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
8,527
Reaction score
1,389
Location
Houston Suburbs
Natethegreat":38fvanr2 said:
sc85sis":38fvanr2 said:
You are assuming that John and Pete would have been willing to pay Golden more if they'd had more cap room. We don't know that. That extra cap might have gone to Red or Clem or to sign Melton or some other free agent. It could have been used to lock down Earl or Sherm this year. Saying we lost Golden because of Harvin is a logical fallacy.

Now you can make the argument that Percy is not worth the cap hit or the third and seventh round picks we lost in the trade. However, to do so based on an assumption that Percy will never be healthy is also illogical, unless you have a time machine and can categorically state that as fact.

The true value or lack thereof in acquiring Percy won't be known for a couple of years.
It is hardly logical fallacy when the guy with the massive contract(and yes it is massive) holds the same roster spot as the guy who moved on. And again we lost a first, a third, and a seventh, for Harvin not just a third and seventh.
No. He is being counted by the team as the first round pick. Pete was quite clear on that.

You also can't automatically equate Harvin to Tate and say we lost one for the other. That would only be true if we traded Tate as part of the original Harvin deal. You are conflating two different transactions.
 

SouthSoundHawk

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
2,262
Reaction score
0
MizzouHawkGal":136doc3d said:
I like that analogy even though without the hip surgery Harvin only played something like 4 games less then Tate so I've never understood why some think he's injury prone.

It's because people are lazy and don't actually go and do their own research, they regurgitate the same shit that they hear through the grapevine.

Harvin > Tate.

MVP Calibur WR > #2-3 WR.
 

Natethegreat

Well-known member
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
2,566
Reaction score
392
sc85sis":2uravb22 said:
Natethegreat":2uravb22 said:
sc85sis":2uravb22 said:
You are assuming that John and Pete would have been willing to pay Golden more if they'd had more cap room. We don't know that. That extra cap might have gone to Red or Clem or to sign Melton or some other free agent. It could have been used to lock down Earl or Sherm this year. Saying we lost Golden because of Harvin is a logical fallacy.

Now you can make the argument that Percy is not worth the cap hit or the third and seventh round picks we lost in the trade. However, to do so based on an assumption that Percy will never be healthy is also illogical, unless you have a time machine and can categorically state that as fact.

The true value or lack thereof in acquiring Percy won't be known for a couple of years.
It is hardly logical fallacy when the guy with the massive contract(and yes it is massive) holds the same roster spot as the guy who moved on. And again we lost a first, a third, and a seventh, for Harvin not just a third and seventh.
No. He is being counted by the team as the first round pick. Pete was quite clear on that.

You also can't automatically equate Harvin to Tate and say we lost one for the other. That would only be true if we traded Tate as part if the original Harvin deal. You are conflating two different transactions.
Oh boy, we gave three picks for Harvin. They were a first, a third, and a seventh, this is a fact. No amount of fantasy land theorizing changes this fact. That is what we gave for Harvin period.
Given his massive contract and duplicity(and excluding his health, superiority) to Tate it made absolutely no sense for us to retain Tate. Harvin is the reason Tate is gone, I can't say this as a fact like the picks but to anyone with any amount of logic and honesty it is quite obvious.
 

Throwdown

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
24,042
Reaction score
1,325
Location
Tacoma, WA
Harvin had one unfortunate year, luckily I think thats behind us. He's practically got a new hip also got the labrum fixed, he'll be in game shape. Harvin struck fear into defenses, can you honestly say that about Tate? I can't say that Tate struck fear into defenses without laughing.
 

CANHawk

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
12,041
Reaction score
0
Location
PoCompton, BC Canada
MizzouHawkGal":27l6hlw0 said:
CANHawk":27l6hlw0 said:
basing the idea of keeping Tate over Harvin in the name of durability is kinda silly. Statistically a Toyota Camry is more reliable than a Corvette, but which one do you want on race day..?
I like that analogy even though without the hip surgery Harvin only played something like 4 games less then Tate so I've never understood why some think he's injury prone.

Ignorance mainly.

I think it's more or a counterpoint to just how durable Tate has really been. It's a real credit to Golden that he's stayed so healthy, but you can't really use that to say Percy is completely made out of glass. He probably should have been IR'd this year after a surgery (a surgery to prevent him from having future hip injuries), and was probably IR'd too quickly after the ankle injury last year (but it was late in the year), and he missed a bunch of games in Minny with a migraine issue that has since been dealt with.

I don't see too many reasons to be overly concerned with his durability.
 

Sports Hernia

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
44,755
Reaction score
3,372
Location
The pit
EastCoastHawksFan":1m26ltii said:
The more I think about it the more sick I get .

Tate is better then Harvin . I know Harvin is more explosive and blah blah blah . The guy just can't stay healthy .
Trading for Harvin is by far the worst move John S has ever made .

Just imagine for a moment that we had Tate for 5/31m and Cordelle Patterson on the rookie pay scale . We would still have 7m a year in cap room to extend the likes of Sherman/Thomas/Wilson/Wright/Wagner/Okung and the list goes on .

In stead we have a player who many of you think will stay healthy. What.A.Joke. I really wish it were true but he just can't . Did Tate ever get hurt ? Did Tate break many tackles ? Did Tate basically Catch everything ? Yes.

I hated the trade a year ago and I hate it more so now . I love John Schnieder to death but I have a feeling he would agree with me . I like everything we did this offseason including not resigning Tate .. But only because we have soo much money tied up into Harvin
:roll: Thank gawd that you are not the GM.
 

sc85sis

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
8,527
Reaction score
1,389
Location
Houston Suburbs
Yes, we gave up three picks. However, one was quid pro quo in exchange for Harvin himself--a pick for a player. Only the third and seventh were extra picks that could be counted as "lost" in that trade.

Unless you work for the Seahawks, you cannot definitively state that Tate is gone because of Harvin's salary. Someone is gone as a result, but it may or may not be Tate.

OK, now that I'm back on a computer instead of a phone, I'll add this:

I understand where you're coming from. On the surface it makes sense that we gained an expensive WR and therefore lost another WR because we didn't have enough money to pay him. But cap management doesn't work that way. They aren't just looking at each player on a micro level--they have to look at the overall team composition in terms of age, depth, money, etc. There also is the fact that some players will end up leaving for any number of reasons: money, playing time, scheme fit, and so forth.

There is simply no way to state that player A automatically means we have lost or will lose player B based on their playing position.
 

Throwdown

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 30, 2009
Messages
24,042
Reaction score
1,325
Location
Tacoma, WA
CANHawk":2xstr5dp said:
MizzouHawkGal":2xstr5dp said:
CANHawk":2xstr5dp said:
basing the idea of keeping Tate over Harvin in the name of durability is kinda silly. Statistically a Toyota Camry is more reliable than a Corvette, but which one do you want on race day..?
I like that analogy even though without the hip surgery Harvin only played something like 4 games less then Tate so I've never understood why some think he's injury prone.

Ignorance mainly.

I think it's more or a counterpoint to just how durable Tate has really been. It's a real credit to Golden that he's stayed so healthy, but you can't really use that to say Percy is completely made out of glass. He probably should have been IR'd this year after a surgery (a surgery to prevent him from having future hip injuries), and was probably IR'd too quickly after the ankle injury last year (but it was late in the year), and he missed a bunch of games in Minny with a migraine issue that has since been dealt with.

I don't see too many reasons to be overly concerned with his durability.

I thought he was IR'd after they discovered he had a tumor while doing the MRI for the ankle? Players usually don't get IR'd for a sprain. They just kept the tumor under wraps out of respect for Percy and his family.
 

hawknation2014

New member
Joined
Feb 17, 2014
Messages
2,812
Reaction score
0
sc85sis":3dj5uoul said:
No. He is being counted by the team as the first round pick. Pete was quite clear on that.

You also can't automatically equate Harvin to Tate and say we lost one for the other. That would only be true if we traded Tate as part of the original Harvin deal. You are conflating two different transactions.

Let's not play games like hide the cost. The reality is that this decision bears ENORMOUS costs. It's not just the three draft picks. Harvin is our highest paid player by quite a lot. He is making $13.4 million this year. To put that into perspective, Harvin is making $6.4 million more than Marshawn Lynch (the focal point of our Super Bowl winning offense). In fact, he is being paid more than Lynch and Chancellor combined. If they tried to cut Harvin after this year, he would leave $7.2 million in dead money. With Harvin's annual $12-13 million cap hit, the front office simply could not afford to pay another receiver over $4 million per year.

The costs are enormous, but so are the potential gains. Harvin has game-changing ability in the slot and as a return man. If he had a repeat of the 2013 season, then this decision would be an abject failure. However, it's more likely that Harvin is the Comeback Player of the Year than an abject failure for the Seahawks. His speed and dynamism could make a once moribund offense something special in 2014. Imagine having the best defense in the NFL and one of the most explosive offenses? This year could be something really special.
 

ceej22

New member
Joined
Sep 30, 2012
Messages
236
Reaction score
0
Some of you are overrating Tate way to much. He made a few good plays, but he was/is nothing out of the ordinary. He doesn't consistently, if ever, separate himself from defenders, no one game plans for him, and he completely disappears from games. The only positive he has going for him is punt returns. But even then he made some questionable decisions and is lucky it didn't cost the team points. On the other hand teams have to game plan for Harvin. When they don't he busts out a 30 yard run and leaves defenders looking clueless.

And this talk about it costing us Tate and 3 draft picks is nonsense. The trade cost us 3 draft picks. It's quite possible the team didn't value Tate the same Detroit did. There is no way of knowing that and it's pointless to argue.

TL;DR It's a pointless argument
 

sc85sis

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
8,527
Reaction score
1,389
Location
Houston Suburbs
hawknation2014":3sxpewop said:
sc85sis":3sxpewop said:
No. He is being counted by the team as the first round pick. Pete was quite clear on that.

You also can't automatically equate Harvin to Tate and say we lost one for the other. That would only be true if we traded Tate as part of the original Harvin deal. You are conflating two different transactions.

Let's not play games like hide the cost. The reality is that this decision bears ENORMOUS costs. It's not just the three draft picks. Harvin is our highest paid player by quite a lot. He is making $13.4 million this year. To put that into perspective, Harvin is making $6.4 million more than Marshawn Lynch (the focal point of our Super Bowl winning offense). In fact, he is being paid more than Lynch and Chancellor combined. If they tried to cut Harvin after this year, he would leave $7.2 million in dead money. With Harvin's annual $12-13 million cap hit, the front office simply could not afford to pay another receiver over $4 million per year.

The costs are enormous, but so are the potential gains. Harvin has game-changing ability in the slot and as a return man. If he had a repeat of the 2013 season, then this decision would be an abject failure. However, it's more likely that Harvin is the Comeback Player of the Year than an abject failure for the Seahawks. His speed and dynamism could make a once moribund offense something special in 2014. Imagine having the best defense in the NFL and one of the most explosive offenses? This year could be something really special.
It certainly does have cost and we have yet to determine whether it will be fully worth it. But we also can't assume that Tate leaving is a direct result vs. someone else leaving, and that's the issue I have with the original post and the others who have chimed in this thread with similar sentiments.
 

CANHawk

New member
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Messages
12,041
Reaction score
0
Location
PoCompton, BC Canada
Throwdown":255wp7vp said:
CANHawk":255wp7vp said:
MizzouHawkGal":255wp7vp said:
CANHawk":255wp7vp said:
basing the idea of keeping Tate over Harvin in the name of durability is kinda silly. Statistically a Toyota Camry is more reliable than a Corvette, but which one do you want on race day..?
I like that analogy even though without the hip surgery Harvin only played something like 4 games less then Tate so I've never understood why some think he's injury prone.

Ignorance mainly.

I think it's more or a counterpoint to just how durable Tate has really been. It's a real credit to Golden that he's stayed so healthy, but you can't really use that to say Percy is completely made out of glass. He probably should have been IR'd this year after a surgery (a surgery to prevent him from having future hip injuries), and was probably IR'd too quickly after the ankle injury last year (but it was late in the year), and he missed a bunch of games in Minny with a migraine issue that has since been dealt with.

I don't see too many reasons to be overly concerned with his durability.

I thought he was IR'd after they discovered he had a tumor while doing the MRI for the ankle? Players usually don't get IR'd for a sprain. They just kept the tumor under wraps out of respect for Percy and his family.

Oh you're right. I forgot about that. something about his appendix or something IIRC...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top