Minn QB Kirk Cousins: Leader of Men or Just Another Stiff?

[olyfan63]

Is Kirk Cousins an overpaid, unathletic stiff of a QB who the Vikings were idiots to give a rich contract to?
Or is Cousins a Leader of Men who will lead the Vikings to Infinity... and Beyond! Well, OK, Playoffs Round 1 and Beyond.

In a Gardner Minshew thread, Minshew was compared to a list of stiff QBs that included Kirk Cousins, and I opined that Cousins is a terrific QB with real leadership qualities, and not a stiff. That opinion met some resistance (Uncle Si), so rather than pollute the Minshew thread, it seemed Cousins deserved his own thread, pro and con. I'll do my best after each Vikings game to stop in here and break down Cousins' day, either gloat or eat crow, and I hope, wind up with some interesting and educational posts over the rest of the season.

I'm offering this thread as an ongoing place to discuss the merits and weaknesses of Kirk Cousins, particularly his leadership in playing at a high level and inspiring his team to play at a high level, willing his team to victory, in the way we've been watching Russell do for years.

Why this interest in Kirk Cousins? Many of you already know that Kirk Cousins and Russell Wilson have a somewhat intertwined history, going back to their college days when they played against each other, Cousins at Michigan State, Wilson at Wisconsin. Their head-to-head college record is 1-1, Cousins winning it for MSU on a last-second Hail Mary, and Wilson winning the Big 10 Championship game on a last-minute game-winning drive. They are also 1-1 against each other in the NFL, with Cousins leading an injury-decimated Redskins squad to victory in Seattle a few years ago, with a last-minute deep pass completion and subsequent Vikings TD run.

Here is a good article from the Vikings' website that covers some of the history between Russell Wilson and Kirk Cousins. https://www.vikings.com/news/cousins-wi ... -mary-pass

First, what this thread is NOT intended to be:
- It's NOT a comparison of Russell Wilson or Kirk Cousins as players, of "which is the better player". In my mind, Wilson is clearly the overall better athlete and better player. But, it is closer than people might think.

- It's NOT a comparison of whether Wilson or Cousins is a better "Leader" in terms of elevating the play and focus of the players around them. IMO, both are fantastic leaders, who do precisely that, elevate the play of those around them. I'm pretty certain about Wilson's *amazing* leadership, having seen it a lot, but honestly, I've seen less of Cousins, so maybe I'm blinded by fandom/ignorant of data points/on drugs to believe that Cousins is even above average, much less on the GREAT level of leadership where Wilson lives.

This week, I get to gloat just a tiny bit. Cousins and the Vikings came from a 20-point deficit at home, to come back and beat the Broncos. Kirk and I text back and forth all the time on game day, so I'll his insights here as well, assuming he doesn't have any days so bad that his phone service gets shut off for QB suckitude. Yes, apparently that's a thing. Check the fine print of your wireless carrier's terms of service . Thankfully, there is no such clause addressing .NET posters.

Kirk Cousins, Leader of Men? Or just another overpaid stiff, a Brock Osweiler of the NFC North? What say you, .NET? Kindly back up your assertions pro and con, with examples from specific games, whenever possible.

 

[olyfan63]

Since I mentioned the texts that Cousins and I (probably) share on game day, so I'm sharing the ones from last game.

I texted him before the Broncos game to step it up today. Then at halftime, I texted him, "WTF Kirk, your team is down 20-0 at home, and it looks like you're just another bum! Bro, I believe in you, but you're letting me down!"
Kirk texted me back, "Dude! Hold my beer! Got this! BCuz.. Diggs! Dalvin! Just told my bros to knock off the freakin retarded fumbles, and maybe keep my ass upright this second half! Do that $h!t, and I GUARANTEE we come back and win this thing. Oops, gotta go, 2nd half about to start, go book your bet on Vikings W now, or YOU LOSE!"

After the game, Kirk text me this:
"Dude, hand me back that beer, and then go check this out!" https://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/20191117 ... 2019111705

 

[SantaClaraHawk]

Leader of men.

His failing (and success) is that sometimes he's a bit passive but is also open to criticism.

That's what led Diggs to call him out in September. He got better after that.

 

[Uncle Si]

He's got an above average arm. He's on a bit of a roll.. but the cowboys and Broncos just shit the bed on two wins. If those play out like they were headed (both teams 1st and goal with less than a minute to go) we are right back to Cousins being overpaid , average QB..

Thats about it. He's good.... sometimes a little more than that.

He's cleaned up his fumbles, and a better run game, which honestly may be why his team has 8 wins. He's not shown he can carry the Vikings in a big game yet.

I live in Mpls.. by all accounts hes a great guy and was the right choice for the Vikings.

He's not top tier though.. needs a couple big wins

 

[sc85sis]

He’s always demonstrated leadership and character; he was the second player in MSU history chosen as a team captain by his teammates for three years running. He made a speech prior to his senior year that got a lot of buzz. https://youtu.be/tp15N9BbYgY I don’t know whether he’s more of a lead by example type or a vocal guy.

Kirk isn’t the most gifted from an arm talent standpoint, though I think his arm strength has actually improved a bit with NFL coaching.

 

[olyfan63]

He's got an above average arm. He's on a bit of a roll.. but the cowboys and Broncos just $h!t the bed on two wins. If those play out like they were headed (both teams 1st and goal with less than a minute to go) we are right back to Cousins being overpaid , average QB..

Thats about it. He's good.... sometimes a little more than that.

He's cleaned up his fumbles, and a better run game, which honestly may be why his team has 8 wins. He's not shown he can carry the Vikings in a big game yet.

I live in Mpls.. by all accounts hes a great guy and was the right choice for the Vikings.
He's not top tier though.. needs a couple big wins

Enjoyed hearing your take. Living in Minneapolis... you would definitely get to see him and have a few data points.
This is his second season with the Vikings; I know he had good "stats" last year, but underperformed W/L expectations in "big" games, and no playoffs.

Hmm, maybe Zimmer and Cousins have taken notes from Carroll and Wilson on winning fugly. Like you said, Vikings squeaked out 2 W's they easily could have lost, thanks to PBUs with the game on the line. 8-3 is playoff material, 6-5 is below the line. I'd characterize the road win at Dallas as a "big" game, and the win over Denver turned into a big game once the score got to 20-0 Denver.

I don't know that Cousins has ever had a team with a good running game and an excellent defense. OK, so last year then. He's in his 2nd year with the Vikes, knows the offense well by now and seems to take care of the ball and not turn it over much, and throws a pretty good deep ball. You know, the 2013-14 Seahawks formula, and the Pete Carroll formula in general. Definitely this would be the year where big expectations are now appropriate.

Cousins being in his second year with the Vikings, brings benefits like knowing player capabilities... to do stuff like that jump pass thing he threw to Kyle Rudolph, for the one-handed catch in the back of the end zone. Knowing how far to throw it for Diggs' speed, and getting the timing and placement right. Understanding the offense well enough to totally switch tactics at halftime against Denver, and then execute. (Like the Seahawks at Pittsburgh this year) To my eyes, Russell is clearly better and more comfortable in his second season with Schotty, so maybe that is happening with Cousins too. Sometimes it's a whole bunch of little things that make the difference.

Of course, Minny could get blown out the next 3 games, and we're back to Cousins the bum.

The rest of Cousins' season will be interesting to watch.

 

[Vesuve]

OP,

IMO, Cousins is in between a leader and a
Stiff and it depends which cousins shows up.

I'm on a phone so can't elaborate.

 

[Uncle Si]

OP,

IMO, Cousins is in between a leader and a
Stiff and it depends which cousins shows up.

I'm on a phone so can't elaborate.

Yeah.. He's a 2nd tier QB, behind Wilson. Brady, mahomes, rodgers, brees., Jackson. He's better than wentz or Hoff, rivers, Stafford.

If you're starting a team, how would you rank cousins, JG, Murray?

If this is just about his character.. the people here love him.

 

[IndyHawk]

OP,

IMO, Cousins is in between a leader and a
Stiff and it depends which cousins shows up.

I'm on a phone so can't elaborate.

Kind of my take is well..
He's never going to be RW so no need to compare.
I think he needs to just learn what he can use from all
the greats.

 

[olyfan63]

OP,

IMO, Cousins is in between a leader and a
Stiff and it depends which cousins shows up.

I'm on a phone so can't elaborate.

Yeah.. He's a 2nd tier QB, behind Wilson. Brady, mahomes, rodgers, brees., Jackson. He's better than wentz or Hoff, rivers, Stafford.

If you're starting a team, how would you rank cousins, JG, Murray?

If this is just about his character.. the people here love him.

Nah, not about his character, Cousins is a freakin Eagle Scout, Mother Teresa in pads and a helmet. That, and $5, will get you a cup of coffee. If you don't tip, that is. In the NFL, such incorrigible character will get you taken advantage of and cheap-shotted.

The question I was hoping to chart, over the rest of the season... does Cousins have the qualities as a leader to elevate the play of the teammates around him, and maybe even the defense? It's an intangible thing, and not something a QB has "direct" control of, but some seem to influence.

The last two weeks have been interesting data points... Both weeks, Minnesota's D holds off a last-possession threat, after Cousins and the O stake the Vikings to a lead. Cousins has nothing to do with that... or does he? Kind of like how Pete Carroll gets unbelievably lucky when teams routinely fail to deliver the killer blow. Closer to home, I believe that Russell also elevates the play of the Seahawk defense, through his leadership and the tone he sets. I think the Hawks D playd that little extra bit harder, makes that extra no-business-making that play, in part because they know that if they get the ball back to Russell, just give him a chance, he will do something good with it. I think it's mutual... in the SF game, Russell got 3 cracks at it between end of regulation and OT, because the D was playing their assess off, in part to give Russell a shot to win it.

A few years back, I was taken aback by the intensity of how Cousins' MSU college teammates loved him, totally believed in him, had his back 6 ways to Sunday. Cousins time with the Redskins... drafted as a late round afterthought behind the "great" Heisman Trophy Winner, Robert Griffin III. Winds up outplaying Griffin and eventually becoming the starter.

IMO, Cousins' ceiling is perhaps Kurt Warner or even Tom Brady. Or even Drew Brees. But those would be dependent on Cousins having lots of room to grow by moving from the Redskins to Minnesota, from a bad organization to a much better one.

 

[knownone]

Cousin’s ceiling is not in the same stratosphere as Brady, Brees, or Warner. His ceiling is somewhere south of Matt Ryan. He doesn’t have great physical tools and he needs a lot of talent around him to be successful. That’s why he struggles against good teams.

 

[Milehighhawk]

Cousins has proven exactly zero in big time games. Therein lies your answer.

 

[xray]

Cousins & the Vikes are starting to peak and when they come to Seattle they could be hot . Gr8 games coming up .

 

[Uncle Si]

OP,

IMO, Cousins is in between a leader and a
Stiff and it depends which cousins shows up.

I'm on a phone so can't elaborate.

Yeah.. He's a 2nd tier QB, behind Wilson. Brady, mahomes, rodgers, brees., Jackson. He's better than wentz or Hoff, rivers, Stafford.

If you're starting a team, how would you rank cousins, JG, Murray?

If this is just about his character.. the people here love him.

Nah, not about his character, Cousins is a freakin Eagle Scout, Mother Teresa in pads and a helmet. That, and $5, will get you a cup of coffee. If you don't tip, that is. In the NFL, such incorrigible character will get you taken advantage of and cheap-shotted.

The question I was hoping to chart, over the rest of the season... does Cousins have the qualities as a leader to elevate the play of the teammates around him, and maybe even the defense? It's an intangible thing, and not something a QB has "direct" control of, but some seem to influence.

The last two weeks have been interesting data points... Both weeks, Minnesota's D holds off a last-possession threat, after Cousins and the O stake the Vikings to a lead. Cousins has nothing to do with that... or does he? Kind of like how Pete Carroll gets unbelievably lucky when teams routinely fail to deliver the killer blow. Closer to home, I believe that Russell also elevates the play of the Seahawk defense, through his leadership and the tone he sets. I think the Hawks D playd that little extra bit harder, makes that extra no-business-making that play, in part because they know that if they get the ball back to Russell, just give him a chance, he will do something good with it. I think it's mutual... in the SF game, Russell got 3 cracks at it between end of regulation and OT, because the D was playing their assess off, in part to give Russell a shot to win it.

A few years back, I was taken aback by the intensity of how Cousins' MSU college teammates loved him, totally believed in him, had his back 6 ways to Sunday. Cousins time with the Redskins... drafted as a late round afterthought behind the "great" Heisman Trophy Winner, Robert Griffin III. Winds up outplaying Griffin and eventually becoming the starter.

IMO, Cousins' ceiling is perhaps Kurt Warner or even Tom Brady. Or even Drew Brees. But those would be dependent on Cousins having lots of room to grow by moving from the Redskins to Minnesota, from a bad organization to a much better one.

Kirk cousins is at his ceiling.. it's not Warner or Brady, it's Cousins (Maybe Stafford at peak)

He's a good guy. He's a slightly above average QB with a lot of very good offensive talent.

He was decent the last 2 games, but a coaching mistake and like their at the end of both games saved him the embarrassment of 2 consecutive losses.

He was poor at the end of the chiefs game.

This is a huge year for him. They're 8-3.. decent schedule coming up, should be in playoffs.

Really needs to win a few big games. Primetime. Playoffs. Overcome that doubt that's followed him.

 

[olyfan63]

Awesome to see all the Cousins doubters come out. Seriously! It's an open question. Does Cousins, finally in a good situation with the pieces around him, have some upside he can still reach, another level he can take it to, to elevate his team and silence his doubters? (Silence them, I mean, for like, maybe, at least 30 seconds or so)

I'm eager to see how the rest of the season unfolds and how he does. As a fan, I'm rooting for him to take that next step up. Just not against the Hawks in a few weeks. For that one, I hope Cousins plays average-well and Russell plays out of his mind for the win. But, elevate his game and his team for all the other match-ups. Like against the Packers. We shall see...

 

[Uncle Si]

Come out?

You made the thread. It's cool you're buddies with him, but it's not like the criticisms of him are confined to here.

He's under scrutiny in local and national media, for a reason.

If Cousins doesn't come through this season I can see the Vikings dumping him.

While I enjoy watching Vikings fans tortured, if like to see them succeed (beating anyone but us)

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

I don’t know what he is but I know he has an elite arm. That may be all he has though.

 

[Maulbert]

I don’t know what he is but I know he has an elite arm. That may be all he has though.

So did Jeff George.

 

[5_Golden_Rings]

I don’t know what he is but I know he has an elite arm. That may be all he has though.

So did Jeff George.

George had a better arm I’d say. But Cousins has one of the best in the league.

 

[Maulbert]

I don’t know what he is but I know he has an elite arm. That may be all he has though.

So did Jeff George.

George had a better arm I’d say. But Cousins has one of the best in the league.

Well, from what I've heard, George is widely regarded as perhaps the strongest arm in NFL history. Just a complete knucklehead.